Mediocrity is now institutionalised at Liverpool FC

[redheart]

In the old "Rodgers should he go thread" I left the message below.

 

Sadly it would appear that I am correct. We are now officially not even a top 6 team let alone a top 4 team. We need to accept that we no longer dine at the top table and but for a rich sugar daddy we never will again.

 

Financially we cannot compete with Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City and now Arsenal as they have the stadium sorted out. No player of quality will choose us over them.  If they come in for a player we want then we will not get them. Inside two year we will be languishing behind Spurs and West Ham. Both of these will have new stadiums and both offer the pull of London. Thus at best we will be the 6th best team or the 6th most attractive to players.

 

We cannot compete for the best in Europe because they will go to Madrid, Barcelona, the top 4 in this country, or PSG, AC Milan or Juventus. With the new TV deal we cannot bully smaller teams like Leicester or Southampton to give us their best players.

 

Thus we are stuck searching for scraps for overseas or the lower leagues.

Rather than face this reality we have  a naive belief that somehow a genius can be found who can buck this trend and unearth hidden talent that no-one else can spot or be a tactical genius who can outsmart lots of teams with more money. We build them up and when they cannot do the impossible we turn on them (i.e the way we turned on Benitez).

 

When Klopp inevitably fails we will turn on his and vilify him also. The truth is without obscene amounts of money to throw at the club we are now firmly stuck in mediocrity.

 

 

 

 

"Posted by redheart on 05 April 2015 - 12:32 PM

Even if we change Rogers then so what?

 

It will change nothing.

 

The fact is that we have arrogantly pissed around 20 years of dominance and goodwill. We are not trading on past glories to raise a sufficient level of income to pretend we are still a big club.

 

We aren't at the top table anymore. Financially we cannot compete. So which ever manager we have in 2015-16 are left buying players from the 2nd or 3rd tier or young and raw talent. Neither of these approaches will get us back to being a leading force in the game.

 

There are serious structural problems with our position. We need to compete off the pitch or at least substantially improve our position before we can think about on pitch activities,

 

Changing the manager will change little to nothing"

 

[Gym Beglin]

WANKER MATE

[jimmycase]

Well we might as well pack up then. Seriously, I can see what you mean even if I dont agree with the end result.

 

we're in a bad place right now and there's only so much Klopp can do this season regarding bringing players in and moving on others. But, it seems a lot of fans expectations exceed that reality right now.

 

Obviously we cannot complete with the two manchester clubs, chelsea, arsenal and top European clubs on a cost basis. It is a new era in football and we have to learn to develop young talent or spot and develop raw talent. Anyone who thinks we can spend our way back is sadly mistaken.

 

For now, we can out spend most of the other clubs in the PL and most other non elite clubs in Europe. But that may also mean paying significantly higher wages than those clubs.

 

Looking to the future, I dont think we'll ever get back to a position of dominance in the english game. Unless of course we bag a mega rich owner who'll throw shitloads of money at the club regardless. Even that has possible drawbacks, look at Tan at Cardiff.

 

Bottom line is we need players with a hunger to win and a manager to manage them. I think we have that manager in place. The owners need to back him but because of the ridiculous transfer windoz, its likely to be the best part of two seasons before we are anywhere near what we want to be.

 

Have many fans that patience though?

[Jairzinho]

Rodgers and the spacker committee spent £300m in three years on fucking shite. There are teams ahead of us in the league, and teams that have achieved more in European competition, that have spent less over that period than what Benteke and Carroll cost.

 

The other teams that have more money than us in England are actually pretty shit at transfers as well, look at how they compare to teams in Europe. We have something like five of the top ten most expensive squads in Europe in England.

 

But we're the fucking worst. We buy overpriced mid table players and then act surprised when they turn out to be mid table players. We spend significant funds on young players and then never play them. We fail to prioritise areas of the squad that we desperately need to improve, and have done for several years. We bin off anyone with any experience of winning anything. We bin off anyone with a functioning brain and pair of testicles. We seemingly look at statistics of players at other clubs, completely ignore all context, and then expect to see the results replicated for us. We ignore the traits of what works in our league (pace and power). 

 

We have the seventh most expensive squad in the world. Whilst FSG won't pay wages for the absolute best players in the world, and nor would they want to sign for us, it simply does not excuse the pathetic, spineless, unbalanced collection of spastics that constitutes our squad.

[thompsonsnose]

Rodgers and the spacker committee spent £300m in three years on fucking shite. There are teams ahead of us in the league, and teams that have achieved more in European competition, that have spent less over that period than what Benteke and Carroll cost.

 

The other teams that have more money than us in England are actually pretty shit at transfers as well, look at how they compare to teams in Europe. We have something like five of the top ten most expensive squads in Europe in England.

 

But we're the fucking worst. We buy overpriced mid table players and then act surprised when they turn out to be mid table players. We spend significant funds on young players and then never play them. We fail to prioritise areas of the squad that we desperately need to improve, and have done for several years. We bin off anyone with any experience of winning anything. We bin off anyone with a functioning brain and pair of testicles. We seemingly look at statistics of players at other clubs, completely ignore all context, and then expect to see the results replicated for us. We ignore the traits of what works in our league (pace and power).

 

We have the seventh most expensive squad in the world. Whilst FSG won't pay wages for the absolute best players in the world, and nor would they want to sign for us, it simply does not excuse the pathetic, spineless, unbalanced collection of spastics that constitutes our squad.

Nailed.

[Liverpool lad]

Think the OP is right

[Ipplfc]

Well we might as well pack up then. Seriously, I can see what you mean even if I dont agree with the end result.

 

we're in a bad place right now and there's only so much Klopp can do this season regarding bringing players in and moving on others. But, it seems a lot of fans expectations exceed that reality right now.

 

Obviously we cannot complete with the two manchester clubs, chelsea, arsenal and top European clubs on a cost basis. It is a new era in football and we have to learn to develop young talent or spot and develop raw talent. Anyone who thinks we can spend our way back is sadly mistaken.

 

For now, we can out spend most of the other clubs in the PL and most other non elite clubs in Europe. But that may also mean paying significantly higher wages than those clubs.

 

Looking to the future, I dont think we'll ever get back to a position of dominance in the english game. Unless of course we bag a mega rich owner who'll throw shitloads of money at the club regardless. Even that has possible drawbacks, look at Tan at Cardiff.

 

Bottom line is we need players with a hunger to win and a manager to manage them. I think we have that manager in place. The owners need to back him but because of the ridiculous transfer windoz, its likely to be the best part of two seasons before we are anywhere near what we want to be.

 

Have many fans that patience though?

this is spot on,it will take kloppo at least three Windows to get his own team playing his football,in the meantime we just have to hope the fans don't lose sight of the fact we have a very special manager here,not normal,special

[DirkDiggledinho]

Who knows. I personally feel this whole obscene money bubble may explode in the next few years. Theres no telling what would emerge from the ashes if that were to happen, but until then it seems patently obvious that we will not have the same financial clout as others. That being said if we can spend smart there is no real reason in my opinion we absolutely can't compete, as we are not the only team in the league senselessly spunking money. There has been some obscene expenditure at yet Leicester City still managed to be top at Christmas. There is not one outstanding team in the league, which is really quite staggering when you think about it.

 

So saying we can never dine at the top table again is a bit melodramatic IMO. We will still attract players, we just have to be far more intelligent in who we actually recruit. The others will still fuck up, there's little doubt of that.

 

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[BCM]

Il re-visit this thread this time next year once Klopp has rid the shite out of this squad, and then tell you wether i agree or disagree

[razor]

We are now officially not even a top 6 team let alone a top 4 team. We need to accept that we no longer dine at the top table and but for a rich sugar daddy we never will again.

 

Changing the manager will change little to nothing"

 

Don't agree at all.

 

Firstly, we don't need to accept we're not at the top table.  I just don't agree.  A shuffle is needed, but we have the makings of a decent team. 

 

Watford was probably the worst performance I've seen for many years, but as well as Newcastle and now West Ham, we've also seen some decent stuff.  They can't sustain it, but I believe that will come.

 

The second point I also disagree with as it is related to the first.  I think by virtue of having Klopp we are placed at the top table.  I don't want to pin every hope on the poor fella's shoulders, but I honestly believe we have the best manager out there.

 

He has a global profile, as does Liverpool.

 

I refuse to accept we are institutionalised mediocrity.  We are poor at times, we are decent at times.

 

I believe the manger will lift us out of the mire.

 

We are not champion material.  But we are top 4 material.

[boots123]

too many players know they will soon be on their way and are just going thro' the motions.

[KopOut]

 

In the old "Rodgers should he go thread" I left the message below.

 

Sadly it would appear that I am correct. We are now officially not even a top 6 team let alone a top 4 team. We need to accept that we no longer dine at the top table and but for a rich sugar daddy we never will again.

 

Financially we cannot compete with Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City and now Arsenal as they have the stadium sorted out. No player of quality will choose us over them. If they come in for a player we want then we will not get them. Inside two year we will be languishing behind Spurs and West Ham. Both of these will have new stadiums and both offer the pull of London. Thus at best we will be the 6th best team or the 6th most attractive to players.

 

We cannot compete for the best in Europe because they will go to Madrid, Barcelona, the top 4 in this country, or PSG, AC Milan or Juventus. With the new TV deal we cannot bully smaller teams like Leicester or Southampton to give us their best players.

 

Thus we are stuck searching for scraps for overseas or the lower leagues.

Rather than face this reality we have a naive belief that somehow a genius can be found who can buck this trend and unearth hidden talent that no-one else can spot or be a tactical genius who can outsmart lots of teams with more money. We build them up and when they cannot do the impossible we turn on them (i.e the way we turned on Benitez).

 

When Klopp inevitably fails we will turn on his and vilify him also. The truth is without obscene amounts of money to throw at the club we are now firmly stuck in mediocrity.

 

 

 

 

"Posted by redheart on 05 April 2015 - 12:32 PM

 

Even if we change Rogers then so what?

 

It will change nothing.

 

The fact is that we have arrogantly pissed around 20 years of dominance and goodwill. We are not trading on past glories to raise a sufficient level of income to pretend we are still a big club.

 

We aren't at the top table anymore. Financially we cannot compete. So which ever manager we have in 2015-16 are left buying players from the 2nd or 3rd tier or young and raw talent. Neither of these approaches will get us back to being a leading force in the game.

 

There are serious structural problems with our position. We need to compete off the pitch or at least substantially improve our position before we can think about on pitch activities,

 

Changing the manager will change little to nothing"

Leicester are a prime example of a club that can suddenly put it all together, out of what appears to be nothing, and with little in the way of budget.

 

Call it 'the x factor' or whatever, but we need that x factor back. It's something that we always seemed to keep over the years, even as the team and players 'turned over'.

 

Personally, and this is a very private opinion that for whatever reason I feel like sharing- I'm done with modern mercenary footballers that play as and when THEY feel like it. There is no club loyalty anymore, from where I'm sitting.

 

If I owned LFC, and my goal was to make us great again, I'd be holding trial after trial of local talent - kids who want to earn a fair days pay for a fair days work and who would love THE BADGE and the SHIRT. Who would stick with the club through thick and thin.

 

We need 4-5 Gerrard type players-across all positions as a 'club core'

 

I live in NZ and I watch the All Blacks.

 

It's all about the shirt and the camaraderie.

 

We need players who play for the love of Red and THATS want I want back. Currently, it doesn't exist.

[Paul]

The statement in the thread title would be true if it weren't for the presence of Klopp. He is anything but mediocre. The question is whether he has the energy to turn the LFC titanic because he certainly has the skill and experience.

 

It's a long term job in a short term world and I don't know whether he'll care enough about us as a club to see it through in the face of inevitable offers from better resourced and run clubs.

[kirkbyred1]

 

In the old "Rodgers should he go thread" I left the message below.

 

Sadly it would appear that I am correct. We are now officially not even a top 6 team let alone a top 4 team. We need to accept that we no longer dine at the top table and but for a rich sugar daddy we never will again.

 

Financially we cannot compete with Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City and now Arsenal as they have the stadium sorted out. No player of quality will choose us over them. If they come in for a player we want then we will not get them. Inside two year we will be languishing behind Spurs and West Ham. Both of these will have new stadiums and both offer the pull of London. Thus at best we will be the 6th best team or the 6th most attractive to players.

 

We cannot compete for the best in Europe because they will go to Madrid, Barcelona, the top 4 in this country, or PSG, AC Milan or Juventus. With the new TV deal we cannot bully smaller teams like Leicester or Southampton to give us their best players.

 

Thus we are stuck searching for scraps for overseas or the lower leagues.

Rather than face this reality we have a naive belief that somehow a genius can be found who can buck this trend and unearth hidden talent that no-one else can spot or be a tactical genius who can outsmart lots of teams with more money. We build them up and when they cannot do the impossible we turn on them (i.e the way we turned on Benitez).

 

When Klopp inevitably fails we will turn on his and vilify him also. The truth is without obscene amounts of money to throw at the club we are now firmly stuck in mediocrity.

 

 

 

 

"Posted by redheart on 05 April 2015 - 12:32 PM

 

Even if we change Rogers then so what?

 

It will change nothing.

 

The fact is that we have arrogantly pissed around 20 years of dominance and goodwill. We are not trading on past glories to raise a sufficient level of income to pretend we are still a big club.

 

We aren't at the top table anymore. Financially we cannot compete. So which ever manager we have in 2015-16 are left buying players from the 2nd or 3rd tier or young and raw talent. Neither of these approaches will get us back to being a leading force in the game.

 

There are serious structural problems with our position. We need to compete off the pitch or at least substantially improve our position before we can think about on pitch activities,

 

Changing the manager will change little to nothing"

Totally agree with everything you've said and I've been saying the same myself for years. We need a sugar daddy or we compete with Stoke, West Bromwich etc. It will get so bad that we'll, as well as supporting liverpool, also support a big club

[smicer07]

Would this have been posted if we hadnt lost yesterday?

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Denny Crane]

Our reputation as a medium sized big club suffered massively during Rodgers reign. The club shouldn't be judged by Rodgers bluffing and incompetence. A man who treated Europe as the John West Tuna cup and wanted to build a team around the likes of Dempsey, Allen, Borini and other misfits. A man who was quite happy to throw the club under the bus to enhance or preserve his napoleon complex.

 

Rodgers dossier made the owners think small-time hopefully it has been burnt and the appointment of Klopp has made them set their sights higher. The last manager took us down to his level hopefully Klopp will drag us up to his level. In the past two seasons where the likes of Southampton, Leicester, Watford, and Palace have shown you can punch above your budget why can't we?. Palace and Watford are getting players from PSG and Roma, Southampton got some very good players from the Dutch League.

 

The way I see it is we spend an absolute fortune. Does it really matter if other clubs spend 20% more. We spend 50% more if not much more than Tottenham but I don't see their fans crying and lowering expectations.

[ZonkoVille77]

I love deep meaningful debates but I'd just like to say we're fuckin shite.

[Russ Atmosphere]

Our reputation as a medium sized big club suffered massively during Rodgers reign. The club shouldn't be judged by Rodgers bluffing and incompetence. A man who treated Europe as the John West Tuna cup and wanted to build a team around the likes of Dempsey, Allen, Borini and other misfits. A man who was quite happy to throw the club under the bus to enhance or preserve his napoleon complex.

 

Rodgers dossier made the owners think small-time hopefully it has been burnt and the appointment of Klopp has made them set their sights higher. The last manager took us down to his level hopefully Klopp will drag us up to his level. In the past two seasons where the likes of Southampton, Leicester, Watford, and Palace have shown you can punch above your budget why can't we?. Palace and Watford are getting players from PSG and Roma, Southampton got some very good players from the Dutch League.

 

The way I see it is we spend an absolute fortune. Does it really matter if other clubs spend 20% more. We spend 50% more if not much more than Tottenham but I don't see their fans crying and lowering expectations.

Good point. Why can't we normally finish top five when we have never fallen out of the top five for spending? Nevermind winning a cup, we haven't won a tough cup tie since Kenny had us beating Chelsea, Everton and Man City.

[old skool tom]

I hope Klopp is a tactical genius and great talent spotter because it's gonna need 90% more than just tubb thumping effort to succeed in this league as most team give everything and run till they drop!

 

Our heavy metal football is more like Glam Rock!

 

Let's Pray too god he is more than an German joe royle!

[Denny Crane]

Good point. Why can't we normally finish top five when we have never fallen out of the top five for spending? Nevermind winning a cup, we haven't won a tough cup tie since Kenny had us beating Chelsea, Everton and Man City.

It proably helped that Flores has managed at Valencia, and Athletico Madrid, Koeman Benefica and Valencia etc. Ranieri everywhere and reluctantly I have to admit Pardiola is the best of the LMA mob. They from the outside all seem well-run clubs.

 

The Pozzo family who own Watford had Udinese punch above their weight. Off the top of my head they finished at least 3 times In Champions League places since 04. They have a pretty smart scouting network and have sold the likes of Alexis Sánchez, Benitia to Bayern and Barca and other players to Juventus and Athletico Madrid, they know football.

 

I don't know anything about Leicester or Palace but most of the media chastised them for not sticking with Pulis and Person and said their achievements were as good as they could ever achieve. I also remember a similar sentiment at Southampton after Nigel Adkins left.

[Section_31]

Would have agreed before we got klopp, but bringing in one of the top five in demand managers is not the act of a mediocre club.

 

Let's not forget we also spend mega money, we just spend it on shite.

 

We're in exactly the same boat as the mancs. A big club that's become dysfunctional and is thrashing around cluelessly like a drowning man in an effort to get back on the boat.

 

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[Paulie Dangerously]

We've been shit since Rafas last season to be honest. Barring very brief flourishes under Kenny and Brendan.

 

We're a mid table club that thinks it's a title contender unfortunately. If it's ever going to change it'll be because of sugar daddies

[Russ Atmosphere]

We've been shit since Rafas last season to be honest. Barring very brief flourishes under Kenny and Brendan.

 

We're a mid table club that thinks it's a title contender unfortunately. If it's ever going to change it'll be because of sugar daddies

Arsenal, and in recent years Spurs, have spent the same or less except with more intelligence.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Just buying better players in areas we most need it would improve us tenfold. We currently have a team full of players who not only constantly make the wrong passes they struggle to play simple ones. We need some pace up front, we need some brains and physical presence in midfield. we need a few good transfer windows and we definitely need new editions this window.

[jimmycase]

Is it the scouting or the committee recommendations that have resulted in us buying so poorly? If its the scouts, we're going to be fucked for a long time because finding good scouts who can spot talent is going to take a while to come on stream.

 

If its the committee, that should be an easy fix because you can disband that quickly. Problem here though is that Klopp has said he's happy to work with a committee and other people say other clubs have a transfer committee in all but name so where's the difference?

 

People have made good points about spending shit loads on mediocre players and yes, I totally agree if you buy from mid table clubs, dont be surprised when those players turn in mid table performances. But, if you hold to that principal all the time, you arent going to find undiscovered talent in the PL, lower leagues or even maybe lesser European Leagues.

 

The club seems to want to portray the image that it can continue to spend big rather than look at value and whether the player can deliver for LFC what they seemingly do for mid table FC.

 

With a couple of exceptions, we've scouted and signed shit players since 1990. That's a long time to have been buying shit.