Faith and Religion

[AngryOfTuebrook]

On 17/05/2020 at 09:30, Rico1304 said:

If someone tells me they are a Muslim it’s likely that they have a set of beliefs I don’t like. Homophobia, FGM, ‘honour’ killings, Sharia etc. That’s all backed up by research and surveys. It doesn’t mean I don’t like the person. 

You think it's likely that British Muslims support "homophobia, FGM, honour killings, Sharia, etc."?

 

Two points

1. You need to meet more Muslims.

2. If you do meet someone who supports all that shit, you really shouldn't like the person.

[Strontium]

1 hour ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

You think it's likely that British Muslims support "homophobia, FGM, honour killings, Sharia, etc."?

 

As he says, a lot of it is backed up by research and surveys.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

 

Extensive polling conducted by ICM suggests that in most cases attitudes held by the British Muslim population do not broadly differ from those held by the population at large, but there are significant differences when it comes to some issues such as homosexuality and women’s rights...

...when asked to what extent they agreed or disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, 18% said they agreed and 52% said they disagreed, compared with 5% among the public at large who disagreed. Almost half (47%) said they did not agree that it was acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher, compared with 14% of the general population.

 

https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2016/12/over-40-percent-of-uk-muslims-support-aspects-of-sharia-law

 

Muslims hold concerns on the NHS and the economy (among other political issues) that are normal among the rest of the population, but as other polls have shown, on specific issues there are marked differences between British Muslims and the general public.

"There are relatively large levels of support among British Muslims for the implementation of elements of Sharia law," Policy Exchange said.

43% said they supported "the introduction of Sharia Law" and just 22% were opposed. 16% of British Muslims "strongly support" the "introduction of aspects of Sharia law into Britain".

[Jose Jones]

1 hour ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

As he says, a lot of it is backed up by research and surveys.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

 

 

 

 

https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2016/12/over-40-percent-of-uk-muslims-support-aspects-of-sharia-law

 

 

 

I wonder what the difference in the homosexual bit would be for Christians, Jews or Hindus?  Got any figures?

I reckon it would be higher than the average, as religious people of all stripes tend to be highly conservative, but probably not as high as the Muslim polls.  Just guessing though.

[polymerpunkah]

Ask Tim Farron.

Quote

Voting against a law that made it illegal for public services to be denied to gay people

Voting to allow registrars not to carry out gay marriages if they object on religious grounds

Voting to increase protections for people who don’t want to conduct or participate in a same sex marriage ceremony

Voting to make it illegal to discriminate against someone on the basis of their beliefs about the definition of marriage

Farron also abstained from a key vote on legalising gay marriage, despite voting in favour of it previously.

In 2007, he went against his party by voting against the landmark Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations, which criminalised many types of discrimination against gay people. 

 https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/whats-tim-farrons-track-record-on-lgbt-rights

 

Kudos to Farron for having the courage of his convictions: it's one thing to answer a question in a newspaper survey, it's quite another to repeatedly vote in Parliament for actual legal restrictions to, or against expansion of, LGTBQ rights.

 

 

[aRdja]

49 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

I wonder what the difference in the homosexual bit would be for Christians, Jews or Hindus?  Got any figures?

I reckon it would be higher than the average, as religious people of all stripes tend to be highly conservative, but probably not as high as the Muslim polls.  Just guessing though.

There’s definitely a correlation between being right-wing/conservative and being homophobic and transphobic. It’d be reasonable to assume that most Muslims are conservative. You put the two together, and it ain’t a pretty conclusion. 

[Strontium]

43 minutes ago, polymerpunkah said:

Ask Tim Farron.

 https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/whats-tim-farrons-track-record-on-lgbt-rights

 

Kudos to Farron for having the courage of his convictions: it's one thing to answer a question in a newspaper survey, it's quite another to repeatedly vote in Parliament for actual legal restrictions to, or against expansion of, LGTBQ rights.

 

The part you deliberately missed out:

 

Quote

FactCheck analysed his voting record, dating back to 2005, and identified 22 instances where he voted on same sex marriage or other LGBTQ issues. On the whole, he has voted in favour of equal rights

[Mudface]

11 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

The part you deliberately missed out:

 

And the bit you did-

 

FactCheck analysed his voting record, dating back to 2005, and identified 22 instances where he voted on same sex marriage or other LGBTQ issues. On the whole, he has voted in favour of equal rights

, but there are some notable exceptions. They generally relate to the right of individuals to uphold their personal beliefs and include:

 

Let's quote the whole thing for the sake of argument-

 

Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron said yesterday that he does not believe gay sex is a sin, following criticism that he repeatedly failed to clarify his views.

“I don’t believe that gay sex is a sin,” he said. “I take the view that, as a political leader though, my job is not to pontificate on theological matters.”

But Farron suggested he should be judged by his voting record, not his religious beliefs, saying: “What counts is your actions and your beliefs in politics.” And he claimed to have a “track record” of over 30 years of campaigning in favour of LGBT rights.

But that claim is misleading.

FactCheck analysed his voting record, dating back to 2005, and identified 22 instances where he voted on same sex marriage or other LGBTQ issues. On the whole, he has voted in favour of equal rights, but there are some notable exceptions. They generally relate to the right of individuals to uphold their personal beliefs and include:

Voting against a law that made it illegal for public services to be denied to gay people
Voting to allow registrars not to carry out gay marriages if they object on religious grounds
Voting to increase protections for people who don’t want to conduct or participate in a same sex marriage ceremony
Voting to make it illegal to discriminate against someone on the basis of their beliefs about the definition of marriage
Farron also abstained from a key vote on legalising gay marriage, despite voting in favour of it previously.

Equality Act
In 2007, he went against his party by voting against the landmark Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations, which criminalised many types of discrimination against gay people. The law was ultimately passed and hailed by campaigners as a major step forward towards greater equality.

In particular, the Act made it illegal for public services to be denied to people on the grounds of their sexuality. Before this, there were concerns about adoption agencies turning away gay teenagers and lesbians being denied smear tests.

Farron voted against this legislation, but appears to have been vague about it ever since.

Ben Summerskill, who was chief executive of Stonewall at the time, told FactCheck that he visited Farron a few months after the 2007 vote to ask why he’d tried to block it.

According to Summerskill, Farron was not clear about his reasons and the Lib Dem eventually suggested that he may have misunderstood the legislation. Farron promised to write to him to giving a full explanation for his vote, but never did, Summerskill claimed. 

A Lib Dem spokesperson told us: “I was in that meeting and that’s not my recollection.”

The Liberal Democrat was also vague about the vote when journalists from Pink News, one of whom formerly worked for Channel 4 News, questioned him on it in 2015. When told that he voted against the Equality Act, Farron denied it, saying: “I don’t think I did.”

When the journalists insisted that he had, Farron said: “Well, I’ve changed my position since then.” He explained in the same interview: “We had an amendment that I think was defeated, which tried to deal with some of the issues about protections. My recollection is that amendment was not accepted – I could not therefore support the [Sexual Orientation] regulations.”

Same sex marriage
Farron has said he regrets his decision to abstain from a key vote on gay marriage, when the Bill was in its third reading in the Commons. His abstention came despite him previously voting in favour of the Bill during the previous stages.

In 2015 he told the Observer: “There were a couple of amendments that were about the protection of essentially religious minorities, conscience protections, and I kind of voted for those. Me doing something like that, which is about protecting people’s right to conscience, I definitely regret it, if people have misread that and think that means I’m lukewarm on equal marriage.”

Tim Farron has certainly supported LGBT causes on occasion, but there are also significant instances where he has not. His claim of a track record in consistently campaigning for equal LGBT rights over three decades doesn’t quite stand up to scrutiny.

In response to Channel 4 News a Lib Dem spokesperson pointed to many causes that Tim Farron has supported as an MP and party leader, including supporting an end to the gay blood ban in 2014 and a posthumous pardon for thousands of gay and bisexual men convicted under historic sexual offence laws.

The spokesperson said: “Tim believes you should be allowed to be who you are and that no one has the right to tell you or anyone who you can be or who you can love. Love is love.

“He has have always fought for human rights, for LGBT rights, for the rights of all minorities because that’s what liberals do. Tim and the party have a proud record on LGBT rights.”

[Jairzinho]

Oh dear. That doesn't sound very liberal.

[Jose Jones]

1 hour ago, aRdja said:

There’s definitely a correlation between being right-wing/conservative and being homophobic and transphobic. It’d be reasonable to assume that most Muslims are conservative. You put the two together, and it ain’t a pretty conclusion. 

Small "c" conservative, I meant not "right wing" politically.  Different things.

[skend04]

2 hours ago, aRdja said:

There’s definitely a correlation between being right-wing/conservative and being homophobic and transphobic. It’d be reasonable to assume that most Muslims are conservative. You put the two together, and it ain’t a pretty conclusion. 

Insightful as always.

[aRdja]

3 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Insightful as always.

You just can’t help yourself can you skend? If there’s anything there that you take exception to, just say and present your counter-point.

[Rico1304]

6 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

You think it's likely that British Muslims support "homophobia, FGM, honour killings, Sharia, etc."?

 

Two points

1. You need to meet more Muslims.

2. If you do meet someone who supports all that shit, you really shouldn't like the person.

How about I just believe the polling?  I guess they approached more than you meet. Do you ask those questions of every Muslim you meet? 
 

And before the obvious is stated I know that Jews Christians etc share some of the same outdated views, another reason why I think religious people are a bit mental. I mean Westboro Baptist’s are hardly nice guys

[Rico1304]

7 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Insightful as always.

 

50 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

Small "c" conservative, I meant not "right wing" politically.  Different things.

British Muslims are more likely to be labour supporters, but have small c values.  

[skend04]

38 minutes ago, aRdja said:

You just can’t help yourself can you skend? If there’s anything there that you take exception to, just say and present your counter-point.

As atheism is increasing in the UK (majority viewpoint now I believe) so are the instances of homophobic and transphobic hate crimes. That's not a very pretty conclusion either. It's like, are people wankers whatever they do or don't believe??

[aRdja]

1 hour ago, Jose Jones said:

Small "c" conservative, I meant not "right wing" politically.  Different things.

Tomato tomahto IMHO. Islamic values are much more in-line with right wing politics than left wing.

[Bjornebye]

Two types of people on the planet. 

 

- Pricks (People who are evil, no respect for others, downright gobshites)

 

- Non Pricks (People who are caring) 

 

What religion they are is just their religion. 

 

 

[Bruce Spanner]

35 minutes ago, aRdja said:

Tomato tomahto IMHO. Islamic values are much more in-line with right wing politics than left wing.

 

The Ummah would disagree, they believe that Islam is about service, duty, charity and looking after other Muslims (Protectionism and expansionism through ideology). If we look at it like a self facilitating group of like minded individuals with a collective goal at the expense of others that uses finacial structures to bridge the gap between have and have nots (Zakat & general acts of giving that are required) then Islam is more akin to Communism, apart from the throwing gays off building stuff! Marx genuinely put less thought in to the lives of women than Mohamed did, so if anything Islam is a more progressive form of collectivism, or Communism for want of a better word.

 

It's certainly as restrictive as Communism in many ways.

 

This is a complete pisstake by the way as this discussion is completely pointless without geographical context, historical context, individual testimony and all manner of other variables.

 

All Peruvians are perverts holds as much sway.

[VladimirIlyich]

3 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

The Ummah would disagree, they believe that Islam is about service, duty, charity and looking after other Muslims (Protectionism and expansionism through ideology). If we look at it like a self facilitating group of like minded individuals with a collective goal at the expense of others that uses finacial structures to bridge the gap between have and have nots (Zakat & general acts of giving that are required) then Islam is more akin to Communism, apart from the throwing gays off building stuff! Marx genuinely put less thought in to the lives of women than Mohamed did, so if anything Islam is a more progressive form of collectivism, or Communism for want of a better word.

 

It's certainly as restrictive as Communism in many way.

 

This is a complete pisstake by the way as this discussion is completely pointless without geographical context, histroical context, individual testimony and all manner of other variables.

 

All Peruvians are perverts holds as much sway.

That Paddington was a dirty cunt alright.

[Bjornebye]

He's having a go at the bears now 

[Captain Turdseye]

1 hour ago, Bjornebye said:

Two types of people on the planet. 

 

- Pricks (People who are evil, no respect for others, downright gobshites)

 

- Non Pricks (People who are caring) 

 

What religion they are is just their religion. 

 

 

I find it abhorrent that you’re willing to pigeonhole people into those two narrow groups. Some of my favourite people are half-pricks. 

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

24 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

He's having a go at the bears now 

Paddington. Fucking immigrant bastard taking our marmalade. 
 

 

[Bjornebye]

16 minutes ago, VERBAL DIARRHEA said:

Paddington. Fucking immigrant bastard taking our marmalade. 
 

 

He's welcome to the stuff. It tastes of piss. 

[cloggypop]

2 hours ago, Bjornebye said:

Two types of people on the planet. 

 

- Pricks (People who are evil, no respect for others, downright gobshites)

 

- Non Pricks (People who are caring) 

 

What religion they are is just their religion. 

 

 

Sexist

[Jose Jones]

3 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

How about I just believe the polling?  I guess they approached more than you meet. Do you ask those questions of every Muslim you meet? 
 

And before the obvious is stated I know that Jews Christians etc share some of the same outdated views, another reason why I think religious people are a bit mental. I mean Westboro Baptist’s are hardly nice guys

I think it’s also that conservative people cling to the old ways, like organised religion and old fashioned social views. 

 

It’s a happy coincidence that they often align, but - as you can see with Trump getting loads of support from evangelicals in the US - it’s not always religious teaching that forms those people’s opinions.

[Anubis]

 

And

 

 

And

 

 

Oh my!