Rafa interview in FourFourTwo

[goatboy59]

That doesn't impress me in the slightest.

[Dicko]

 

And Shankly took us from halfway down the second to top of the first in 5 years, again after 7, after a decade or two of absolutely fuck all except humiliation. He also nearly won the league in 68, 69 and 72, the UEFA and FA cups in 71.

 

Again, that's an unfair comparison meant to diminish those who thought it best that Rafa should go in 2010 when we were 7th and out of the CL compared to 4th and in the CL when he got the job (albeit 3 points better off) ie not much like Shankly at all.

 

It really isn't otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned Arsenal.

I just feel football has got a lot colder, not just the game but the support. Patience & gratitude seem to be in short supply, look at Kenny's twitter account to see what I mean.

 

I have no argument about people who wanted Benitez gone, I thought they were totally and utterly wrong but that was just my opinion, but some of the denigrating of his achievements by a few on here and in other places was pretty lamentable.

 

That said the politicking before the Athletico game made me as angry as I can remember at a Liverpool manager.

 

Hodgson aside.

The fucking cunt.

[TheResonator]

There is more than one method of revisionism, such as claiming (always in general terms, never in specifics) that Rafa wasn't perfect and that one 'side' never claimed he was.

 

When you read through and see even the purchase of Degen being excused, and you can go through the entire list of Rafa versus The World arguments of the last two or three years when he is painted as entirely blameless for everything, it's a bit galling to be tagged with an agenda by people who won't and can't have a bad word said about the man.

 

Even your post which is largely excellent can't resist a little smear or two re those who wanted him replaced by Roy (very few) and those who called him 'fat Spanish waiter'. Guilt by association, because we wanted the same outcome? Sorry, that won't work.

 

I never thought he was dragged kicking and screaming out of Anfield anyway, it was a lot closer to Purslow's "mutual consent" claim than some care to admit - largely because they painted Rafa in their own image as Uber Scouse Warrior fighting the vermin on his own. That then leads to grotesque smears of Carragher getting a manager sacked, preposterous in itself but for an extra year on his contract?!?

 

Which also leads to convenient amnesia about Rafa urging journalists to "lay off Hicks" and his own determination to get a five year contract.

 

Then after a decade of a dozen of more quality foreigners gracing this club (including two managers, generally speaking) you get some twattery about Xenophobia!

 

It's okay saying "criticism is acceptable but", but when it is met with bile and a ton of slush every single time that claim becomes less and less convincing.

 

I can see very little criticism having been met with bile. Arguments can go on and on about Aquilani, Keane and the like. Obviously in foresight they would have been seen as good, or acceptable acquisitions, in hindsight as examples of poor judgement.

 

Degen is obviously one of the best examples of a bad transfer probably in the English game: injured for a vast majority of his time at the club, and poor when he played -- to put it charitably. The other side of the coin is that, if we'd had the money of our competitors, would we have been forced to look for back up wing-backs on free transfers?

 

Just to be clear about it, that's not an argument I'm advocating at all. But people will pursue such lines of conflict when they are looking to defend someone who they feel they ought to be defending, either out of pity, or loyalty, or both, which has lead to the cyclical sort of arguments you see on here: "Benitez was shit in the markets -- he bought Degen!" "He only bought Degen because the owners didn't give him any money" "Oh, Benitez can do no wrong in your eyes!" "Well, you won't acknowledge that the things he's criticised for aren't his fault" -- repeat ad infinitum.

 

I'm not trying to smear all of the people who wanted him out with the same brush. I think, though, that you ought to understand that part of the reason that the defence of Benitez was so vehement was because a lot of his defenders believed that he was being pilloried by the media, and that the real difficulties of the club were being marginalised. That does, admittedly, create a dynamic more similar to that of Jesus and his disciples than it does a platform for objective debate and acceptance of shortcomings.

 

I'm also not intending to include you as one of those who unreasonably denigrated him. I think you were a bit too insistent on your own point of view at times, but I also think you put your arguments across well and that what you write is generally quite balanced. We usually just reach different conclusions.

 

What I couldn't accept was not wanting him gone, but wanting him gone at that time. That, to me, did not - objectively - make sense, because we were not in the position to hire a better candidate. Some people were so desperate for him to go that they did not consider the reality of our situation.

 

I also generally think that, in the face of a media siege, supporters of the club ought to close ranks and back the club's manager and players. That's just my own personal feeling based on my interpretation of the history of the club and it's tradition, and I was disappointed by how many people seemingly just regurgitated the lines peddled by the media.

 

As for Benitez's requests for the media to 'lay off Hicks', yes, it was a mistake. I'm not saying he didn't make mistakes, precisely because I don't view the whole thing as being black and white.

 

Finally, to address people who 'won't and can't' have a bad word said about the man, I think there ought to be a distinction drawn between criticising his conduct as a manager and outright insulting him. RAWK are overly fanatical when it comes to saying anything about him, but most of his advocates here - from what I've seen - will argue the percentages (as will many of his critics) rather than wading straight in with insults.

[goatboy59]

Another kwaliteee post from Resonator.

 

I also generally think that, in the face of a media siege, supporters of the club ought to close ranks and back the club's manager and players. That's just my own personal feeling based on my interpretation of the history of the club and it's tradition, and I was disappointed by how many people seemingly just regurgitated the lines peddled by the media.

 

 

Generally, I do too. Sometimes within that siege is a kernel of truth which is hard to ignore or refute.

 

We are also talking about a manager who, by his own devotees' confession, could put the boot in on his own players in private. After you hear and read one or two tales about that, it becomes more difficult to offer up blind obedience.

[goatboy59]

some of the denigrating of his achievements by a few on here and in other places was pretty lamentable.

 

 

You mean the likes of me, saying all he did was finish 7th in 2010? :whatever:

[Guest The Chimp]

Another kwaliteee post from Resonator.

 

It is mate. He's been like this from the off. A quality poster to have on this site imho. Indeed, the debate's been pretty good on here of late. The FF seems to have settled down a bit from the recent madness. A bit of thought and consideration, some willingness to concede points and be a bit malleable, doesn't half make a difference. Ian Garro, Moof, and a few others (including yourself) have really made for a good night for reading the forum.

[goatboy59]

Ta.

 

I want to see him in another job and doing well. He's too good not to be working at all.

 

I've got a feeling about Mancini to be honest, especially if their CL campaign gets worse. Who else is available to be caretaker for a few months?

[Jairzinho]

David Platt?

[Guest ian garro]

I'm also not intending to include you as one of those who unreasonably denigrated him. I think you were a bit too insistent on your own point of view at times, but I also think you put your arguments across well and that what you write is generally quite balanced. We usually just reach different conclusions.

 

That, and the rest of the post, is just about the best, most measured and considered post on the subject you're ever likely to read - I agree with more or less every word. Top post from a top contributor.

 

Chimp, you're a gent.

[Dicko]

You mean the likes of me, saying all he did was finish 7th in 2010? :whatever:

:P

[goatboy59]

David Platt?

 

 

"Feel like coming on now, Tevez?"

[Code]

Weird.

 

Weird, whats weird about it?

 

When it came to managing, Rafa had obviously lost the plot, nothing weird about it at all, just common sense.

 

To bring him back at the time, that would be fuckin weird.

[Guest ian garro]

Weird, whats weird about it?

 

When it came to managing, Rafa had obviously lost the plot, nothing weird about it at all, just common sense.

 

To bring him back at the time, that would be fuckin weird.

 

Oh dear.

[Code]

Oh dear.

 

Its easy this, pick out something from a post and answer exactly how you feel like understanding it at the time.

[Guest ian garro]

Its easy this, pick out something from a post and answer exactly how you feel like understanding it at the time.

 

Again; oh dear.

[dirk grout]

Just read Daves match report from the West Ham game Dec 2008, its surreal it's like this club is stuck in a set pattern. Groundhog day. Even Keane could be taken for Carrol in that review, theres a few similar comparisons. No matter what we are never all happy.

 

It highlights a bit just how good we were that season has been revised, we were shite most of it and then after the boro game the best I can remember seeing us. It was more a purple patch than anything. Gutting though because after the way that season ended I thought by the gods Rafa has finally cracked it.

 

I'm hoping this season we find a clicking point because you can see the potential just under the surface.

 

We lost twice in the league and got 86 points yet you think we were shite for most of that season? Nonsense.

[Delmar]

There is more than one method of revisionism, such as claiming (always in general terms, never in specifics) that Rafa wasn't perfect and that one 'side' never claimed he was.

.

.

Even your post which is largely excellent can't resist a little smear or two re those who wanted him replaced by Roy (very few) and those who called him 'fat Spanish waiter'. Guilt by association, because we wanted the same outcome? Sorry, that won't work.

 

Kindly pay your dues and join the MF, and possibly reconsider about your "very few". Then you will also see how the "reasonable" mob mentality, that labels posters as Code and Ant as "sound", works. I felt that I owed something to this board, paid for it for a year. After a while I felt that this is not right, this is not my Liverpool FC. So I stopped paying. I still read posts here, I do not miss the MF at all, I alsoread posts in RAWK (mea culpa, they are still total nazis), and prefer not not post much.

[Guest TK-421]

That is how i feel as well, delmar. i've been shimmering around here like a half dead angry obi wan with his reddy brek glow. my time here is naturally sizzling out to an end. Not my Liverpool fc.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

It's not about just joining the MF gents, it's about contributing to the use of a site you use everyday. And have used for a number if years.

 

The MF is less knobs and more debate, if you don't like somebody's posts, stick them on ignore. You get out of it what you put in as well.

 

It's a shame that people look at it as some sort of clique, when it is far from that.

[Delmar]

It's not about just joining the MF gents, it's about contributing to the use of a site you use everyday. And have used for a number if years.

 

The MF is less knobs and more debate, if you don't like somebody's posts, stick them on ignore. You get out of it what you put in as well.

 

It's a shame that people look at it as some sort of clique, when it is far from that.

 

Nelson Mandela wrote: "Where you stand depends on where you sit". Granted, it is on the interweb close to Godwin's Law, but it is (from where I sit) perfectly reasonable. You sit somewhere else.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

 

Nelson Mandela wrote: "Where you stand depends on where you sit". Granted, it is on the interweb close to Godwin's Law, but it is (from where I sit) perfectly reasonable. You sit somewhere else.

 

What if you straddle the middle though?

[moof]

Nelson Mandela wrote: "Where you stand depends on where you sit". Granted, it is on the interweb close to Godwin's Law, but it is (from where I sit) perfectly reasonable. You sit somewhere else.

 

Don't really understand what point you're trying to make. Skids and I stand in different places on this subject yet we're both patrons of the MF.

 

I'm confused.

 

Apologies if i've read this wrong.

[BCM]

I find it fuckin sad that people continue to denigrate the achievements of one of the best managers this club has ever had.

Why the fuck are people still argueing long after he has left the club baffles me If you dont like him fair enough ,If you do like him fair enough.

Someone opens a thread about an interview he does with a football magazine and its like argument 425 again.

He gave many people who support this great club some of their proudest moments, He made us one of the most feared teams in Europe. he also made mistakes either in matches or in transfers, and has been rightly criticised for it.

Should this really be the top thread going into a derby weekend, should it fuck.

[Delmar]

Don't really understand what point you're trying to make. Skids and I stand in different places on this subject yet we're both patrons of the MF.

 

I'm confused.

 

Apologies if i've read this wrong.

 

I'd guess in general you'd be sitting in the same place with Skids. As, in general, I'd be sitting in the same place as TK. My comment was generic, then I just used a specific example to demonstrate my point. It's just how it things go, people see things differently, no reason to be confused.

[Guest TK-421]

I don't want to read Code slagging of Lucas and being an insufferable twat, or stringvest drag Kuyt's name through shit before, after, during and in between our fixtures. I don't want to say too much, though, cos I like Dave U and want his site to be a success. I used to love it here. Me calling everyone in the MF a cunt isn't going to help with anything so it's better that I leave and let others post gifs of bad dancing when one of Rafa's flops is sold for a profit.

 

May the AIDS be with you - always.