Summer 2011

[Trumo]

I really dont care if we dont sign Aguero, Mata, Hazard etc. If Kenny wants Downing, Adam and Henderson then he should get them. We are going for Premier League tested players who know how to play in this league. I would rather that than another 20 million flop.

 

You can have an abundance of Premier League experience yet still be a £20m flop. Ask Robbie Keane. Having experience of playing in the Premier League is no indicator that a player has what it takes to play for us. It's about having the right progressive mentality and hunger to succeed, and those characteristics can be found in players in any league in the world. You just have to look. The better leagues will have more players with talent and class to go with these characteristics.

[RedAdmiral]

One things for sure. Kenny is building a team, not a circus of overpaid superstars like Man City. All the players we have either signed or are going to sign are an improvement on what we have, which is all you can ask for at this stage.

[WhiskeyJar]

The whole we've got no CL footie so won't attract any top players seems deluded to be honest. Of course there's a huge swathe that we won't attract because many want it now and every season, but there's a lot of intelligent players out there that'll realise we can make it next season, especially with them and other signings included, so it's not that far out to realise that's the case. And it is the case, because there's no fucking way every single world class player doesn't have the intelligence to come here just because we don't have CL footie next season.

 

We are Liverpool FC.

 

Wherever we are in Europe or not, we are one of the biggest clubs in the world.

 

We are not a smalltime club and I am sick to death of our fans saying it so just because we are not in the Champions League.

 

Class is permanent, form is temporary.

[Red Phoenix]

One things for sure. Kenny is building a team, not a circus of overpaid superstars like Man City.

 

Agreed totally, and just because we aren't doing what City are doing some are freaking and have been doing so for weeks. It's strange, because team spirit means a fuckload more than some people have any idea at all about.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Let me rephrase that:

 

I would rather have an Adam than the prospect of having another Aquilani.

 

So you're using one of the only top money signings to flop from the continent in the last half decade? Not sure that the best way to do our dealings, mate.

 

I'd rather just have Alonso. Or Mascherano. Or Garcia. Or Torres. Or Reina. Or Agger. Or Arbeloa. Or any of the good players who came for decent money. There's foreign failures, but very few when you consider how much those failures cost in transfer fees, the weight of evidence weighs extremely heavily against your theory.

 

Not to mention the failures from this this league. Out of all the British players we've signed over the last half decade, there's only a few who have made any lasting impression. I don't want another Keane, Pennant, Cole, Konchesky, et al.

 

I'm not saying you can't get good players from this league, you can. I'm just questioning this 'used to playing in this league' myth. When spending medium to big money, we've had far more success from outside this league.

[WhiskeyJar]

You can have an abundance of Premier League experience yet still be a £20m flop. Ask Robbie Keane. Having experience of playing in the Premier League is no indicator that a player has what it takes to play for us. It's about having the right progressive mentality and hunger to succeed, and those characteristics can be found in players in any league in the world. You just have to look. The better leagues will have more players with talent and class to go with these characteristics.

 

We have seen however time and time again, great players to come into the Premier League only to have flopped due to the aggresive nature of the league.

 

Just because they are foreign does not mean that we need them more than any other Premier League winger i.e. Downing and Mata.

 

These characteristics are more often found in the same league than any other league.

[Trumo]

I'm just saying I'd look at the characteristics and not the passport. I don't automatically assume that "Johnny Foreigner" is the right choice, or that a British player is the wrong one. The cost of a player is no guarantee that they'll have what it takes regardless of where they come from or how much vaunted they are.

 

Downing may well fit in better than somebody like Juan Mata, but until a player signs, no-one can know for sure. Of course there are some players you just know will not be successful here. The club are now working with a blueprint that in theory should see fewer "wrong" signings being made.

[WhiskeyJar]

So you're using one of the only top money signings to flop from the continent in the last half decade? Not sure that the best way to do our dealings, mate.

 

I'd rather just have Alonso. Or Mascherano. Or Garcia. Or Torres. Or Reina. Or Agger. Or Arbeloa. Or any of the good players who came for decent money. There's foreign failures, but very few when you consider how much those failures cost in transfer fees, the weight of evidence weighs extremely heavily against your theory.

 

Not to mention the failures from this this league. Out of all the British players we've signed over the last half decade, there's only a few who have made any lasting impression. I don't want another Keane, Pennant, Cole, Konchesky, et al.

 

I'm not saying you can't get good players from this league, you can. I'm just questioning this 'used to playing in this league' myth. When spending medium to big money, we've had far more success from outside this league.

 

Just because Adam, Downing and Henderson are indeed from this league, does not mean that they will flop either.

 

Agree to disagree I suppose but in the end of the day, what we can agree on is that the Premier League unlike any other league in the world therefore I see no reason why not to assume at least that some players can play better in the same league under a different team.

[Red Phoenix]

So you're using one of the only top money signings to flop from the continent in the last half decade? Not sure that the best way to do our dealings, mate.

 

I'd rather just have Alonso. Or Mascherano. Or Garcia. Or Torres. Or Reina. Or Agger. Or Arbeloa. Or any of the good players who came for decent money. There's foreign failures, but very few when you consider how much those failures cost in transfer fees, the weight of evidence weighs extremely heavily against your theory.

 

Not to mention the failures from this this league. Out of all the British players we've signed over the last half decade, there's only a few who have made any lasting impression. I don't want another Keane, Pennant, Cole, Konchesky, et al.

 

I'm not saying you can't get good players from this league, you can. I'm just questioning this 'used to playing in this league' myth. When spending medium to big money, we've had far more success from outside this league.

 

I think you're focusing a bit too much on foreign players. We all know we need some, but we can equally sign the right players from this country/Scotland/Wales/Ireland and be one of the best teams. Mainly because we already have a good few foreign players that are great, or will be.

 

Besides, look at Barca, do you think they're that bothered about not having loads of foreign players? And you can say it's because they developed them properly, but Borrell is with us now, and he helped develop many of theirs himself.

[WhiskeyJar]

I'm just saying I'd look at the characteristics and not the passport. I don't automatically assume that "Johnny Foreigner" is the right choice, or that a British player is the wrong one. The cost of a player is no guarantee that they'll have what it takes regardless of where they come from or how much vaunted they are.

 

Downing may well fit in better than somebody like Juan Mata, but until a player signs, no-one can know for sure. Of course there are some players you just know will not be successful here. The club are now working with a blueprint that in theory should see fewer "wrong" signings being made.

 

Nail it mate.

 

The whole theory that we should prioritize foreigns because they have more class is a pointless argument.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I think you're focusing a bit too much on foreign players. We all know we need some, but we can equally sign the right players from this country/Scotland/Wales/Ireland and be one of the best teams. Mainly because we already have a good few foreign players that are great, or will be.

 

Besides, look at Barca, do you think they're that bothered about not having loads of foreign players? And you can say it's because they developed them properly, but Borrell is with us now, and he helped develop many of theirs himself.

 

I'm not focusing on anything. I don't care if a player comes from Mars, I care if he is good. Which is why I reject this 'used to the league' myth.

[Red Phoenix]

The whole theory that we should prioritize foreigns because they have more class is a pointless argument.

 

Agreed, it's about who develops them, what manager they have, what teams they play in, and the general atmosphere they're in, even who inspires them. Not because they're from another country.

 

I'm not focusing on anything. I don't care if a player comes from Mars, I care if he is good. Which is why I reject this 'used to the league' myth.

 

Ah ok, if you're just meaning that, agreed again.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Nail it mate.

 

The whole theory that we should prioritize foreigns because they have more class is a pointless argument.

 

The whole theory that we should get players from this league because they're used to it is not only pointless, it's ignorant of recent history.

[Trumo]

Nail it mate.

 

The whole theory that we should prioritize foreigns because they have more class is a pointless argument.

 

I'm confused. Is that what you believe I think? If so, they you didn't read what I wrote properly. If not, then I'm still confused.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Just because Adam, Downing and Henderson are indeed from this league, does not mean that they will flop either.

 

I didn't say they'd flop because they're from this league. I don't think Downing is a £20m player, regardless of what league he comes from.

 

Agree to disagree I suppose but in the end of the day, what we can agree on is that the Premier League unlike any other league in the world therefore I see no reason why not to assume at least that some players can play better in the same league under a different team.

 

Some players can play better, but it has nothing to do with them playing in the same league. It's about the quality of player, not where they've played. There's empirical evidence to back it up. We've seen players like Pennant, Keane, and many more, with our own eyes. Coming from this league doesn't mean anything whatsoever. Being good enough matters.

[WhiskeyJar]

The whole theory that we should get players from this league because they're used to it is not only pointless, it's ignorant of recent history.

 

Better equipped then?

Do not need time to adapt?

 

Take your pick NV but in the end what are KK and DC are doing is just that. Hence why we are about sign Downing instead of Mata, hence why we have sign Henderson than Hazard, hence why we have signed Adam.

 

I wonder if I should mention Carroll in that list too.

[Phoenix]

Just because Adam, Downing and Henderson are indeed from this league, does not mean that they will flop either.

 

 

I dont think anyway is saying that are they.

 

Moreso for the same amount of money you can buy someone even better from abroad.

[WhiskeyJar]

I'm confused. Is that what you believe I think? If so, they you didn't read what I wrote properly. If not, then I'm still confused.

 

I was adding my point of view. Just because a foreign player has got more skill, still does not mean he has a better chance of making it in this league than a class player from the another (lower) club in the same league.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Better equipped then?

Do not need time to adapt?

 

No, both of those things go entirely against what we've seen. Those players I've mentioned hit the ground running, the British players I've mentioned never started running. It's a complete falsehood.

 

You get better equipped for this league by being a better player, not by being a certain nationality or having played in a certain league.

 

Take your pick NV but in the end what are KK and DC are doing is just that. Hence why we are about sign Downing instead of Mata, hence why we have sign Henderson than Hazard, hence why we have signed Adam.

 

I wonder if I should mention Carroll in that list too.

 

But I disagree with them both on the signing of Downing over of Mata. Mainly because Mata is a vastly better player in almost every way. Just because it's what they're doing, it doesn't mean it the right thing to do. Just like when it wasn't right to buy Pennant, Konchesky, Cole, Keane, Bellamy, Zenden et al. Some players are just not good enough.

[WhiskeyJar]

I dont think anyway is saying that are they.

 

Moreso for the same amount of money you can buy someone even better from abroad.

 

Thats the point we are discussing.

 

My view is that Premier League players that have proven themselves in the Premier League have more of a change to improve and be an asset in a better team than a foreign player that is even "better".

 

Trumo made a point that it is more about the characteristics of the player than the actuall origins, which I agree to adding that just because we are to sign a foreign player does not mean that they would be a guranteed success.

 

NV is pointing out that just because we are in the process of signing said PL experienced players, its does not mean that they would improve us.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Thats the point we are discussing.

 

My view is that Premier League players that have proven themselves in the Premier League have more of a change to improve and be an asset in a better team than a foreign player that is even "better".

 

Do you have any evidence to support this?

 

NV is pointing out that just because we are in the process of signing said PL experienced players, its does not mean that they would improve us.

 

I think Adam will improve us, I'm not sure about Henderson. I think Downing will improve us, but by nowhere near as much as the £20m we'd have to pay and by nowhere near as much as other players we could by for the same money.

[WhiskeyJar]

Do you have any evidence to support this?

 

Quite, the transfer of both Young and Jones, even though both positions are well covered.

 

I think Adam will improve us, I'm not sure about Henderson. I think Downing will improve us, but by nowhere near as much as the £20m we'd have to pay and by nowhere near as much as other players we could by for the same money.

 

Do you have any evidence to support this?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Quite, the transfer of both Young and Jones, even though both positions are well covered.

 

That's not evidence of anything other than United buying two British players. I'd have loved Jones. That's not evidence that players in this league will be better than even better foreign players just because they've played in this league. It's a ridiculous notion, with no evidence at all.

 

If we'd experienced Keane coming here and being amazing, and Torres being shit, and many others that follow that pattern, you'd have lots of evidence to support it. But almost all of the evidence is the exact opposite of that.

 

Do you have any evidence to support this?

 

I've just given you a list of players, all of whom were significantly less and significantly better in this league than Downing.

[WhiskeyJar]

No, both of those things go entirely against what we've seen. Those players I've mentioned hit the ground running, the British players I've mentioned never started running. It's a complete falsehood.

 

You get better equipped for this league by being a better player, not by being a certain nationality or having played in a certain league.

 

 

 

But I disagree with them both on the signing of Downing over of Mata. Mainly because Mata is a vastly better player in almost every way. Just because it's what they're doing, it doesn't mean it the right thing to do. Just like when it wasn't right to buy Pennant, Konchesky, Cole, Keane, Bellamy, Zenden et al. Some players are just not good enough.

 

Some players just did not fit in the way we played, hence why once they move to another club in the same league they perform and the best example of that is the Macherano scenario when he was at West Ham.

 

A foreign player playing so bad that he was not even in the first team. Now he was equipped to handle the PL but only Rafa at the time saw that. Once he got transfered out to us he became established as one of the top holding midfielders in the world.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Some players just did not fit in the way we played, hence why once they move to another club in the same league they perform and the best example of that is the Macherano scenario when he was at West Ham.

 

A foreign player playing so bad that he was not even in the first team. Now he was equipped to handle the PL but only Rafa at the time saw that. Once he got transfered out to us he became established as one of the top holding midfielders in the world.

 

Mascherano played 5 games for West Ham. He was already one of the finest players in the world before he joined us. Mascherano is evidence of my argument, not yours.

 

There's no evidence that shows our buying players from this league will turn out any better than buying players from abroad. In fact, the evidence quite clearly shows that we've been significantly more successful, when spending decent amounts of money, by doing the exact opposite.