Our league form from February to May

[Woo]

We won't have the quality that Utd has - not this season anyway.

 

Rafa doesn't just rotate the players, he rotates their positions too. One week, he starts with Kuyt as a striker, next week, he goes out on wide right, the week after he finds himself on the left side. Not easy for the team to gel.

 

I know I was simply using that as an example that rotation can work if used correctly, and Im sure its something Rafa will look at seeming as we have now found a formation that suits us. When he was changing players positions we didnt have a system like we now have that gives us balance.

 

Not that Im saying rafa is faultless, but he gets far more stick than he should from certain quarters.

[Chuck Fadanoid]

I firmly believe that we are very close, even one top quailty attacker would make a huge difference. The slump in the middle is baffling, even allowing for players losing all form and confidence. We were struggling against championship level sides. But the key as has been shown is a settled formation and team. Thats what all us moaners were asking for during the bad run and I think as soon as we did settle it paid dividends.

 

Call me neive, but I genuinely believe that if we'd signed Ronaldo instead of the Mancs we would still be two titles adrift from them.

 

I think rafa will chop and change, but I am hoping he will have quality in the squad so that when he does, it will be changing like for like in terms of quality. Whereas this season (Im using this as an example, not a pop at andriy) when he rests someone like torres, he has played someone like voronin. Ferguson chops and changes, difference being he has real quality in his squad (e.g drop carrick, bring in hargreaves).

 

We started the season well, and I agree at times rafa was trying to be too clever, but I think depending on the players brought in this season, we genuinely can challenge for the title. I mean at least still be in the running like arsenal were this season.

 

I've been saying for the last two seasons that, because of the way Rafa works, we will win the title when we've got strength in depth. I don't necessarily think this a bad thing either, because when do have this strength I can see us winning doubles and trebles.

[stringvest]

Ok, so who thinks he'll stick with a (more or less) settled team for the whole of next season the way he has done in the last couple of months, and who thinks he'll do what he's done every season so far and chop and change in the opening months until we're well off the pace?

 

I really want to believe he'll do the former, but my head says otherwise.

 

I seem to remember either last season or the one before, we would have won the title had the season started in January, so this isn't anything new.

 

Sadly I agree. He's definitely found a system and there's a consistency from playing the same players in the same system most of the time. My concern is that we have been 'found out' by the best clubs, and that we don't really have a plan B. He deserves the chance to prove us wrong though.

[Red Nick]

…was the form of champions.

 

Liverpool: Pld 15 W 11 D 3 L 1 Pts 36

Chelsea: Pld 14 W 9 D 5 L 0 Pts 32

Man Utd: Pld 14 W 9 D 3 L 2 Pts 30

 

That's nearly half a season of out-performing both those sides when they were going full tilt for the title until the final day without easing up. Moreover, two of our draws (Arsenal and Birmingham) were with second-string sides.

 

That period coincides almost exactly with the 4-2-3-1 system being used regularly. Is there anybody on here who doesn't believe that, barring bad luck with injuries, we can't sustain that form over the course of a season if we stick to the system and spend whatever cash we have on quality players to go into the first XI?

 

Good points but unfortunately your judged on 38 game season

 

However it does make you wonder how many points we would have had without the shit between November and February

 

in fact if you look at the points earnt before the newcastle game when it all kicked off we got we had taken 24 from 12 and 27 from 13 including the newcastle game now if you add the two together that gives you 60 points from 27 that gives you a 38 game average of 84 points which makes us better than the 82 point season

[aws]

Sadly I agree. He's definitely found a system and there's a consistency from playing the same players in the same system most of the time. My concern is that we have been 'found out' by the best clubs, and that we don't really have a plan B. He deserves the chance to prove us wrong though.

 

I'm not sure we've been "found out" at all. I can only think of one game (old Trafford) where we've been second best over the last few months. You could argue that's the only game we've been second best all year (Marseille at home as well maybe).

[Cardie]

I would be interested to how many changes Rafa has made per match since going 4-2-3-1 compared to when he was fucking about with the personel all the time.

 

 

in the 15 game run he kept an unchanged side once with the team that lined up against Reading also facing Utd.

 

He averaged around 3.5 changes per game with the highest number of changes at 7 (once against Fulham and once against Man City) and the lowest (excluding the unchanged team) at 1 change for the Brum game.

 

The run started playing 4-4-2 against Sunderland, switched to 4-2-3-1 against Chelsea the next game then that formation stayed for a run of 10 games before changing back to 442 against Fulham, the same against Brum, 4231 against City and back to 442 against Spurs.

 

Not quite the settled side.

[stringvest]

I'm not sure we've been "found out" at all. I can only think of one game (old Trafford) where we've been second best over the last few months. You could argue that's the only game we've been second best all year (Marseille at home as well maybe).

 

not necessarily second best, but in terms of being able to handle our approach. We can at times look like a bit of a blunt instrument.

[shanks59]

Problem is, with the Euros this year, Rafa will chop and change at the start of the season to keep them fresh for the whole campaign, that said, I expect ALL top 4 managers to do it, so we shouldn't lose any ground.

 

Yeah right :whistle:

[Brownie]

It's hard to disagree with what Dave wrote there. I'd love to think that Rafa will stick with a settled team and shape next season for the first few months, but any evidence suggests otherwise.

 

He's definitely earnt the chance to prove otherwise though after the crap that's happened this year - just remains to be seen whether he'll take it.

[coop]

in the 15 game run he kept an unchanged side once with the team that lined up against Reading also facing Utd.

 

He averaged around 3.5 changes per game with the highest number of changes at 7 (once against Fulham and once against Man City) and the lowest (excluding the unchanged team) at 1 change for the Brum game.

 

The run started playing 4-4-2 against Sunderland, switched to 4-2-3-1 against Chelsea the next game then that formation stayed for a run of 10 games before changing back to 442 against Fulham, the same against Brum, 4231 against City and back to 442 against Spurs.

 

Not quite the settled side.

 

Cheers for that Cardie mate.

 

For me 8 out the team should when possible play every game, certainly in the league.

 

Reina, Carragher, Agger or Skrtel, Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Babel, Torres for me are the spine of the team and that only leaves 3 places up for grabs.

 

Obviously if Alonso goes then you would imagine the deal to sign Barry will be completed so that would still leave the two full backs and right sided attacker position available.

 

I dont personally believe that Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal have a spine of a team that is any better then ours but obviously used better.

 

I posted it in the 'realistic' thread but there is no reason why even if we are still under Hicks/Gillett why we cant sign the players required to challenge for the league next season and trim down the team whilst we are at it.

[Liam]

I think Rafa will think his philosophy clearly works as his side consistently finish the season the strongest, he will put that down to his early season rotation. I imagine he will see the sides poor start down to the players he rotates in to the team who arent considered first choice, so he could decide the way forward is to sign players like Downing, Barry and Bentley. That would enable him to rotate with more confidence, dropping less points in the process.

[coop]

Rafa will have to rotate at the start of the season as both Mascherano and Lucas are at the Olympics.

[Cardie]

If we're rotating at the start, roatating in the middle and rotating at the end then perhaps it's not the rotation that is the problem.

[JohnnyH]

Ok, so who thinks he'll stick with a (more or less) settled team for the whole of next season the way he has done in the last couple of months, and who thinks he'll do what he's done every season so far and chop and change in the opening months until we're well off the pace?

 

I really want to believe he'll do the former, but my head says otherwise.

 

I seem to remember either last season or the one before, we would have won the title had the season started in January, so this isn't anything new.

 

And that's exactly the case. And I think if he does do what he has done for the last 4 seasons I think the fan base will turn on him very quickly.

 

I'm 100% behind Rafa and firmly believe that if he had like for like in the same way the Mancs do, then he could compete. If he is given the money then we have a good chance.

 

However, if he is stuck with the likes of vorinon then he needs to play as strong a team as possible in the league and ignore the League Cup and the Champions league and be in contention over the first 3-4 momths and not be out by November. After that he can see where we are and push on from there. The 3 or 4 games that Torres was rested in the league can be transfered to the CL.

 

Hopefully however, he will be able to sign another top goal scorer and winger and then we can compete in both.

[Neil G]

in the 15 game run he kept an unchanged side once with the team that lined up against Reading also facing Utd.

 

He averaged around 3.5 changes per game with the highest number of changes at 7 (once against Fulham and once against Man City) and the lowest (excluding the unchanged team) at 1 change for the Brum game.

 

The run started playing 4-4-2 against Sunderland, switched to 4-2-3-1 against Chelsea the next game then that formation stayed for a run of 10 games before changing back to 442 against Fulham, the same against Brum, 4231 against City and back to 442 against Spurs.

 

Not quite the settled side.

 

Clearly more settled than before the run started though, which is my point. And two of those 4-4-2 lineups were with virtually second-string teams.

[JohnnyH]

If we're rotating at the start, roatating in the middle and rotating at the end then perhaps it's not the rotation that is the problem.

 

I thought at the start he rotated formations too much though, which caused confusion in the side. If he is to stick with this 1 up top formation, and I hope he does, then he can rotate good players in who know the job and we can do better. However, he needs to have the quality. Rotating Torres and Voronin just wont work.

[Liam]

People must acknowledge the fact that early season rotation has contributed to getting to Istanbul and Athens, as well as strong points totals in the second half of seasons.

 

I think it will work well so long as the replacements are of better quality, thats why we need patience. We either need to buy in to Rafa's philosophy or decide its time for a change.

[WaltonRed]

Rafa will have to rotate at the start of the season as both Mascherano and Lucas are at the Olympics.

 

he doesnt really if we sign Barry play him if not and we have Guthrie back give him a run or let Plessis have a run.

 

This wont happen though and in my humble opinion it should.

 

We always seem to do well after Christmas when Rafa is under pressure.

[JohnnyH]

People must acknowledge the fact that early season rotation has contributed to getting to Istanbul and Athens, as well as strong points totals in the second half of seasons.

 

I think it will work well so long as the replacements are of better quality, thats why we need patience. We either need to buy in to Rafa's philosophy or decide its time for a change.

 

You think Rafa is incapable of changing his philosophy? I don't.

[Unrighteous]

I think we have to strengthen the players that are being rotated into the squad, and add class players for the top sides.

 

Farfan and Dos Santos would give us players who can play off the bench or starting for us... Probably cheaply considering...

 

Farfan/Babel can handle Torres' position if necessary and Dos Santos/Farfan can operate on the flanks with Dos Santos/Yossi handling the forward central midfield if necessary.

 

Insua/Aurelio on the left with Agger filling the gaps if necessary. Arbeloa/??? on the Right with Carragher filling the gaps if necessary.

 

Nemeth coming off the bench/starting the Cup matches.

[Liam]

You think Rafa is incapable of changing his philosophy? I don't.

 

He would need to sell a lot of players if he did as his squad was built with rotation in mind. This approach has also proven successful for him. I would say be patient personally.

 

EDIT: I think somebody as strong minded and focused as Rafa needs to be allowed to do his own thing. Its then up to the fans to decide when they have had enough. Rafa changing would also look to me like he is buckling to media pressure more than anything and I couldnt ever see him doing that.

[Unrighteous]

He would need to sell a lot of players if he did as his squad was built with rotation in mind. This approach has also proven successful for him. I would say be patient personally.

 

A squad literally cannot compete, in this day in age, in multiple competitions without rotation.

 

This is a cold hard fact. The filth rotate, the chavs rotate, and Arsenal shows what happens when your squad cannot rotate.

 

Period.

[JohnnyH]

He would need to sell a lot of players if he did as his squad was built with rotation in mind. This approach has also proven successful for him. I would say be patient personally.

 

I actually don't think he needs to change his philosophy anyway. If he is allowed purchase players who are of a top level then rotation works. Just look at Man Utd and Chelsea. They've rotated as mush or more then us over teh last 4 years and have claimed all the title between them. Most of our players fit the 1 up top formation barring our strikers so that's mainly where the work is needed.

[Brownie]

People must acknowledge the fact that early season rotation has contributed to getting to Istanbul and Athens, as well as strong points totals in the second half of seasons.

 

I think it will work well so long as the replacements are of better quality, thats why we need patience. We either need to buy in to Rafa's philosophy or decide its time for a change.

 

Early season rotation may have contributed to us getting to Istanbul and Athens, but why not Moscow then? Why did we not look ANY stronger than Chelsea, who haven't had the luxury of resting players as much as us due to their challenges on all fronts?

 

Surely we should have been fresher and fitter than them in the extra time period in the CL tie?

[Liam]

Exactly, rotation isnt the problem for me. Utd do it as much. I would say tinkering with systems is what has damaged us domestically.