Russia v Ukraine

[Red Phoenix]

2 hours ago, TheHowieLama said:

Interesting post with a different perspective.

 

What part of the peace process does this illustrate? Are these integral to sitting down and talking?

 

Izyum? It's just part of Russia trying to take Donetsk and Luhansk and/or surround Ukrainian troops in the area.

 

18 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Well, I guess we know now. 

 

Yes, believe everything the Ukrainian gov says, question nothing. And if you do, get ready for someone to whip out the old apologist insult.

[Red Phoenix]

Not surprised one bit if this is true :

 

 

This was on the same day as well : President Zelensky Suggests Ukraine May Pursue Nuclear Weapons To Counter Russia, Putin Responds

[TheHowieLama]

8 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Izyum? It's just part of Russia trying to take Donetsk and Luhansk and/or surround Ukrainian troops in the area.

 

You are anti war -- why are you interested in military advances now? 

[Red Phoenix]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

You are anti war -- why are you interested in military advances now? 

 

You can be against something and still check reports on what's happening with it. I'd be really glad if a peace deal was signed within the next hour and all of the fighting stopped but that's clearly not going to be the case.

[Ne Moe Imya]

I remember reading a story about WWII about some Jews who smuggled evidence of the beginning stages of the Holocaust (not the ovens/death camps at that stage, it was mostly work camps and mass shootings and ghettos) out to the West and how they were totally ignored, or even decried as liars.

 

I used to wonder how that happened. Now I read this thread and I see exactly how it happened. Putin has truly won, in a sense. He has gotten enough people to doubt the plainest of evidence of his criminality. All he needs is the slimmest of doubts, the idea that it's at least possible that someone could have faked a video or some photos or whatever, and there are those who will rush to his defense. Most of them are not truly evil, just contrarians who like to show their scepticism of the mass media or whatever, but it serves his purposes just the same.

 

Of course, history is going to reveal what anyone with half a brain can already see to be true: the Russians have committed mass war crimes during this invasion, in Bucha and elsewhere.

[Red Shift]

4 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

It’s not a war it’s an invasion. There could

be no crimes without Russia invading. I can’t stab a burglar who doesn’t break into my house. 
 

‘probably dead bodies…left to rot in the street’

 

Youve form for making pronouncements with absolutely no authority.  

Crimes were committed prior to the ‘special operation.’

[Ne Moe Imya]

This thread on Twitter, translated from a 16 year old girl's journal from Mariupol, is pretty harrowing:
 

 

[Ne Moe Imya]

Or this, from The Times:

Quote

Two days earlier, Torovik said, he had seen a dog eating a woman’s body that had been left on the ground. Yet the worst was in the basement of the dacha.

 

“We found 18 bodies in there,” he said. “They had been torturing people. Some of them had their ears cut off. Others had teeth pulled out. There were kids like 14, 16 years old, some adults. They just took the bodies away yesterday.”

Link to article

 

The things the Russian soldiers are doing in Ukraine are like WWII-style pure Gestapo evil. And yet I fully expect the usual suspects to be on here responding with how Ukraine needs to bend to Putin's will in order to "avoid further bloodshed."

[Red Shift]

9 hours ago, Pureblood said:

Fat creepy cunt wants perpetual war

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10677717/ANDREW-NEIL-time-Britain-Nato-allies-Ukraine-weapons-needs-win.html

 

ANDREW NEIL: It's time for Britain and its Nato allies to give Ukraine the weapons it needs to win this war 

 

It is time for Britain and its Nato allies to give Ukraine and its formidable military the resources it needs to put victory beyond doubt.

They’ve yet to understand the war, or are deliberately out to destroy Ukraine. I see Poland is manoeuvring like a vulture post Biden meeting. 
 

I can see Ukraine disappearing. Total tragedy

[Rico1304]

1 hour ago, Red Shift said:

They’ve yet to understand the war, or are deliberately out to destroy Ukraine. I see Poland is manoeuvring like a vulture post Biden meeting. 
 

I can see Ukraine disappearing. Total tragedy

You don’t mean that. Why lie? 

[Red Phoenix]

8 hours ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

I remember reading a story about WWII about some Jews who smuggled evidence of the beginning stages of the Holocaust (not the ovens/death camps at that stage, it was mostly work camps and mass shootings and ghettos) out to the West and how they were totally ignored, or even decried as liars.

 

I used to wonder how that happened. Now I read this thread and I see exactly how it happened. Putin has truly won, in a sense. He has gotten enough people to doubt the plainest of evidence of his criminality. All he needs is the slimmest of doubts, the idea that it's at least possible that someone could have faked a video or some photos or whatever, and there are those who will rush to his defense. Most of them are not truly evil, just contrarians who like to show their scepticism of the mass media or whatever, but it serves his purposes just the same.

 

Yes, world war II, Nazis, death camps, mass graves, chemical weapons + every other horrible thing you can imagine. Putin's done the lot and the Nazis and fascists in the Ukrainian army, backed by the most militaristic and warmongering country on the planet since the actual Nazis themselves haven't done anything wrong that we should be talking about, haven't staged a single thing and the media are somehow for once just giving us the truth about a war.

 

Not wanting this to escalate into having most of us killed in a nuclear war isn't being fucking contrarian! Some of us are genuinely concerned about where this is heading if we're not seriously careful and Putin apologist, "you'd have sided with the Nazis in WWII" and all of the other insults isn't going to work.

 

At the end of the day NATO does regularly keep coming up as a central issue in this despite previous efforts to assure us that it's nothing to do with it and Putin has the world's largest arsenal of nuclear weapons even if his army could get wasted over time and isn't that special.

 

Ruling out a seriously unstable country joining NATO shouldn't really be a huge problem considering the risks it has for all of us but the US have no interest in that at all, so yes they could be helping fuel the conflict. And wasting through Putin's army might look like a great idea but we have no idea what his state of mind is going to be like (and yes we are concerned about Putin's state of mind because of all of the nukes he has remember and the fact that he put his nuclear forces on high alert) if we get to the situation where a Ukrainian army pushes Russia right out of the country largely thanks to NATO weapons shipments.

 

This war isn't just about Putin being bad for invading Ukraine. It's also complicated because of where it could lead and so far we still see the UK, US and other govs not seeming to give a fuck about that. Both sides of this conflict have serious problems, lots of them. It's not healthy to have this idea that the Ukrainian gov, military and their NATO backers are some purely valiant and innocent crusaders again Putin's evil army. None of us want to see Ukrainians suffer like this but it's also good to be more realistic about what's going on.

[Pureblood]

It's obvious that the West wants this war to go on for as long as possible.  Government mockingbird mouthpiece Andrew Neil confirmed as such in the Daily Mail article above. 

[SasaS]

12 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

Well, I guess we know now. 

And you call me weird.

[Red Phoenix]

"Russia is worse than Isis, full stop." According to Ukraine’s foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba.

 

OK.

[Rico1304]

Bloody NATO 

 

 

[KMD7]

11 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

"Russia is worse than Isis, full stop." According to Ukraine’s foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba.

 

OK.

Well they are for Ukraine.

[TheHowieLama]

11 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

You can be against something and still check reports on what's happening with it. I'd be really glad if a peace deal was signed within the next hour and all of the fighting stopped but that's clearly not going to be the case.

Just seems strange that the only report I have ever seen you post is one of Russian "successes".

Kind of makes it seem like you are rooting for one side.

[Mudface]

Modern day tankies.

[Red Phoenix]

56 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Just seems strange that the only report I have ever seen you post is one of Russian "successes".

Kind of makes it seem like you are rooting for one side.

 

Nope, I've been mainly checking the east of Ukraine for weeks because I've thought that Russia were mainly focused on that area, to the extent that even their forces at Kyiv seemed more like a distraction than anything else. And if you look at the history of Izyum in this war and how important it could be for Russia to keep it, it's hardly been a success for them.

 

The place has been contested for weeks and instead of taking it then moving further east/south they've not really moved from that area. If anything Izyum and the area around it could be seen as one of the main indicators of how badly they've done in this war so far. It could also be a sign of how well the Ukrainian forces have done too though. If they weren't functioning well Russia could've taken a lot of the area around there by now.

 

It could also show how pointless them trying to take the entire Donbas area could be. Now that they're withdrawing from other areas people are talking about how they're not reducing presence in Ukraine but shifting it to the east, but Ukrainian forces are also freed up now to focus more there and with constant weapons shipments from NATO it could mean that Russia aren't going to have much luck taking Donbas at all.

 

The reason I've focused so much on the east is because it's looked like a main influence for when and how any eventual ceasefire and/or peace arrangements could be worked out if that ever happens.

[Red Phoenix]

22 minutes ago, Mudface said:

Modern day tankies.

 

I said ages ago that I wasn't a tankie. I want the war to stop and what happens in the Izyum/Donbas area could be a big influence on that. It can go with the other list of names though I suppose.

 

The only reason I even posted saying that Russia had taken Izyum was because I've checked on it regularly and what I quoted was a media outlet saying something that was out of date. As far as I know several here are interested in which side controls what areas so I thought it'd help.

[TheHowieLama]

22 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

The reason I've focused so much on the east is because it's looked like a main influence for when and how any eventual ceasefire and/or peace arrangements could be worked out if that ever happens.

Let's be honest - if you support a ceasefire which sees any change in the borders or the sovereignty of Ukraine that would be a win for Russia. Ironically making you a supporter of war.  

[Pureblood]

42 minutes ago, Mudface said:

Modern day tankies.

Ooh, a little label.  Well done! 

[Red Phoenix]

3 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Let's be honest - if you support a ceasefire which sees any change in the borders or the sovereignty of Ukraine that would be a win for Russia. Ironically making you a supporter of war.  

 

That makes zero sense to me, a ceasefire means peace not war. I'm more interested in people not being injured and killed than I am about borders or sovereignty as well. If Ukraine accept a change in borders or sovereignty for the sake of stopping the war and it leads to a lasting peace I have no major issue with that seeing as that change in borders or sovereignty could be for the sake of avoiding something that escalates far beyond Ukraine. What I do have an issue with is war because people get injured and killed because leaders couldn't manage to work something out to stop that from happening.

 

If Ukraine accept a change in borders or sovereignty for the sake of stopping the war and it soon leads to more war though that doesn't help in the long run either. So I have no idea of how that should be worked out.

 

Being against war can also be conflicting at times too though and I accept that. It's ok me saying I'm anti-war and I am, but at the same time it can seem almost natural to look at something like this and think "If Russia take that area will they then be more open to a ceasefire? Maybe that'll end this faster?" Or "If Ukrainians hold out and Russia don't advance any further maybe that'll be for the best because Russia might give up?" Or "Ukraine could even manage to drive Russia out of the country and then Putin could just accept that he's lost." But the end result is still people being injured and killed and a constant risk of escalation. We really have no idea if Putin will "just accept that he's lost" if Ukraine drive Russia right out of Ukraine, it's a constant risk and a ceasefire or peace agreement if it works well enough, removes that risk.

 

My favourite option has been and will always be some type of breakthrough in negotiations to end this as fast as possible so that the injuries and death are stopped. So that the war is stopped.

[Pureblood]

15 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

That makes zero sense to me, a ceasefire means peace not war.

No way.  If you want any sort of ceasefire it definitely means you want loads more war, you're pro Russia, pro war and 100% pro Putin.  That's how it works, get with the programme. 

[TheHowieLama]

8 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

That makes zero sense to me, a ceasefire means peace not war.

It is very simple. If an aggressor starts a war and ends up gaining what they wanted then that is a win for the aggressor. Meaning the war was a success. Generally success breeds more success, not less.

You are hardly unique in wanting peace but I don't think you understand the implications of how it is achieved.

I want Ukraine to push Russia all the way back to their borders. Then I want the international community to do everything in it's power to insure Russia pays for the re building of Ukranian infrastructure and reparations for damages to historical sites. Certainly if any war crimes are proven they should be prosecuted.

IMO that is how you would lessen the chance of future conflict.