Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Davelfc]

If the tories elect a leave/brexit PM then no matter how much howling goes on, the default position will be that we crash out of the EU on 31 October. If the new PM does not ask the EU for another extension then this is what will happen, like it or not. Parliament cannot (as it was explained yesterday) stop that scenario. 

 

There is a chance that the turkeys could vote for xmas and decide to bring down their own government in a no-confidence vote and any new PM could then change that. But what do tories want more, their warm seat and a peerage or Europe? Surely any general election would wipe the tories out.

 

As was stated by a leading tory MP last night on the BBC, when they have two candidates it goes to the members for a vote. The members are overwhelmingly for a hard brexit.  

 

Interesting to see how this plays out now, biggest shit show since the last one. 

 

 

[aRdja]

Lol at The Guardian, excluding the tories from their “leave” bar in the below chart to fit their (sorry @Tony Moanero) narrative.

[Brownie]

3 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

Lol at The Guardian, excluding the tories from their “leave” bar in the below chart to fit their (sorry @Tony Moanero) narrative.

I think it’s fair to discount both the Labour and Tory vote for that graph. Probably half of them are leave and half are remain.

[aRdja]

5 minutes ago, Brownie said:

I think it’s fair to discount both the Labour and Tory vote for that graph. Probably half of them are leave and half are remain.

I disagree.  The split in the Tory party doesn’t look to be between leave or remain any longer. It’s between leaving with a deal or without.

[Davelfc]

I think knowing politicians that graph will be spun to the public to suit almost any argument. Saying people only voted Green to remain is a little unfair on those that will have surely voted for environmental issues, and a lot of those lib dem votes are from fucking idiots that have short memories. Each of the big parties will have their analysts sit down now and work out their best strategy going forward in order to get the most votes. Because that's all they really care about.  

[aRdja]

Interesting write up from Gloria de Piero.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/27/brexit-backing-remain-labour-referendum-general-election

 

This isn't about Brexit. Backing remain now would wreck Labour

Gloria De Piero

Trying to overturn the referendum result would alienate voters who trust us and end all chance of winning a general election
 

Gloria De Piero is Labour MP for Ashfield

Mon 27 May 2019 12.17 BSTLast modified on Mon 27 May 2019 12.27 BST

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 ‘A single issue has damaged us in a not hugely important election.’ A Labour party candidate watches votes being counted in the EU elections, Southampton, May 2019. Photograph: Tolga Akmen/AFP/Getty Images

The Labour party, as we expected, took a battering in the European elections. I’m not going to analyse the data, there are good pollsters who can do that but in so much as anything is clear, strong remain areas voted for stop Brexit parties, and leave areas voted for Nigel Farage. To quote Theresa May for one last time, nothing has changed.

Corbyn 'listening very carefully' to Labour calls for second referendum

 

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But I have a heartfelt plea to my colleagues. Please do not take what turned out to be a proxy referendum on Britain’s relationship with the EU to try to alter what would be an effective ending of Labour’s historic coalition of working-class, middle-class, city and non-city voters. Our party is built on that coalition. When it frays, we rebuild it. A single issue has wrecked the Tory party before; it is wrecking it now.

Do not let a single issue wreck the Labour party. Our programme to rebuild a country that is fairer is so much more than about a single dominant issue today that has damaged us in a not hugely important election.

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Whatever way you add up the votes, and believe me both sides in this polarised debate are frantically saying what happened means they’re right, the idea that the “country has moved towards” remain is clearly wishful thinking rather than reality.

Nigel Farage won by far the largest vote share with a simple message. Britain voted to leave the EU. Britain hasn’t left the EU. Until that is no longer the case, we won’t be able to move on and fix the injustices that have wreaked havoc in communities such as the ones I represent in parliament – problems that were not created by being in the EU and won’t be solved by leaving the EU.

Another referendum will not fix the problem, it will merely reinforce it. Further, I’ve seen nothing to suggest the outcome of a referendum would be different. But even if it produced a narrow remain victory, why would that have legitimacy when the first referendum didn’t? It smacks of a political establishment that wants to keep asking the same question until it gets the answer it wants. According to the academics Roger Eatwell and Matthew Goodwin, 58% of those who voted to leave also say that politicians don’t listen to people like them. Surely we want to prove them wrong, not right?

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Some of my colleagues argue that a second referendum is the only way out of this impasse, but it’s clear many just see it as a way of blocking Brexit altogether. If that happened, and Labour was instrumental in overturning a democratic mandate, then what do we say to leave voters, and indeed millions of remain voters, who do accept the mandate and want to move on, the next time we ask them to trust us.

In my constituency of Ashfield, we knock on doors pretty much all year round – but in the runup to the local elections, I really stepped up campaigning. Do you know how many people asked me for a second referendum? A grand total of zero. And that was from remain and leave voters.

It is true that in these elections we lost more remain votes to the Liberal Democrats and Greens than leave votes to the Brexit party. But we have also lost millions of votes to the Brexit party, Ukip and the Tories in previous years. Reversing the trend that has seen the balance of Labour support move from town to city, from voters with less educational qualifications to those with more and, yes, from traditional working class to middle class, needs to be addressed if we are to win general elections again.

The 2017 general election saw a reversal of the trend, thanks to a genuine and real change programme that excited all parts of our coalition. But I fear that that has gone into reverse and seeing Labour figures on the TV every day giving the impression that we as a party don’t respect the referendum result has been toxic and needs to end.

Labour has lost millions of voters in areas such as mine since 2005. It is fantastic that Labour has built support in parts of the south and London; that is vital. But we won’t win another general election if we don’t respect a part of our electoral coalition that is also needed. Electorally, most of the marginal seats we need to win are in heavily leave-voting areas. Morally, our party was born to represent the interests of working-class voters.

We are now in a reverse of what happened in the 1980s and 90s. Then it was the argument that we couldn’t help people in Barnsley and Bradford without winning the marginals, so we needed to change – and when we did, we won. The very opposite change is required now. It’s about who we are as a party and why we were founded. 

This is not just about Brexit. It’s about the future of the Labour party as we know it. There is no mandate for a hard Brexit or to revoke article 50 or for a second referendum. Labour’s historic mission now is to bring the country together and find a compromise to leave the EU in a way that keeps close ties to our neighbours. Let’s not make a difficult outcome far worse by turning it into one that throws away our hope of representing all the people we exist to represent.

We need a deal so we can move on and address the real problems the UK faces – and that means electing a Labour government

[Ne Moe Imya]

18 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

Some of my colleagues argue that a second referendum is the only way out of this impasse, but it’s clear many just see it as a way of blocking Brexit altogether. If that happened, and Labour was instrumental in overturning a democratic mandate, then what do we say to leave voters, and indeed millions of remain voters, who do accept the mandate and want to move on, the next time we ask them to trust us.

 

Er, how about we tell them that once it became clear what Brexit actually meant (i.e. economic suicide) we realised that we needed a MUCH clearer backing from the voters than a 52-48 margin vote when everything was muddled?

 

I'm really getting sick of Labour refusing to look at the complexities of the situation surrounding the Brexit vote and pretending that a 2% margin in those circumstances means that absolutely nothing can be considered other than leaving the EU, with a no-deal exit if necessary. It's idiotic.

 

She implies here that it would be impossible to trust anyone who didn't deliver a Brexit (further implying that would be the case even if it were no-deal). Nothing could be further from the truth. If your family got high one night and voted to burn down the house, you wouldn't say your parents were untrustworthy if, after sobering up the next morning, they put a stop to the whole thing.

[SasaS]

31 minutes ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

 

Er, how about we tell them that once it became clear what Brexit actually meant (i.e. economic suicide) we realised that we needed a MUCH clearer backing from the voters than a 52-48 margin vote when everything was muddled?

 

I'm really getting sick of Labour refusing to look at the complexities of the situation surrounding the Brexit vote and pretending that a 2% margin in those circumstances means that absolutely nothing can be considered other than leaving the EU, with a no-deal exit if necessary. It's idiotic.

 

She implies here that it would be impossible to trust anyone who didn't deliver a Brexit (further implying that would be the case even if it were no-deal). Nothing could be further from the truth. If your family got high one night and voted to burn down the house, you wouldn't say your parents were untrustworthy if, after sobering up the next morning, they put a stop to the whole thing.

There is, however, one major problem with your reasoning. The voters were in fact asked to choose between two, presumably economically and politically viable outcomes.

[Davelfc]

43 minutes ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

 

If your family got high one night and voted to burn down the house, you wouldn't say your parents were untrustworthy if, after sobering up the next morning, they put a stop to the whole thing.

 

This kind of comment isn't helpful. There are as many so-called 'experts' suggesting that it would be good for the country as saying it would be a disaster. I doubt many think it will be easy, I'm sure there's quite a few don't realise it could be very hard for some time. Harder than the bullshit austerity the tories used to tax the poor. I've used an analogy of a divorce, having been through a separation of a family with children you'll do anything to keep things together. However, there's usually one side that wants a split and eventually, it comes and times can be very hard for quite a while. While it was easier to stay in that broken relationship it can be possible to look back now and see it was worth the break. If we eventually leave then we will need competent politicians and a desire to succeed. Not doom-mongers.

 

I get the easy part, stay. Hey, I am on the fence here and I can see the benefits of stay. This whole fiasco for me has shown how fucking broken our political system is and if we do eventually stay then the repercussions of ignoring 17.4 million people won't go away overnight. 17.4m people that have been called racists, bigots, stupid and now 'high' 

 

For me, if this breaks that political system then it will have all been worth it. We don't live in a real democracy and this has shown that. This is what politicians dread now, like a magician when you see the wires, we've seen enough to know and their game is up.

 

 

 

 

 

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Haven’t only 1/3 of those registered to vote  actually voted in this European Election. Sure I heard that on 5Live before.

 

If that’s true then that means 2/3’s of the country are actually the ones who are making their feelings known. By staying away. 

 

Nothing is going to change with the “success” of The Brexit Party or the “resurgence” of the Lib Dem’s getting the results they did. Both are the extreme sides of Brexit. The Lib Dem’s are disregarding the decision of the 52% that voted Leave as much as The Brexit Party are of the 48%. Proper liberal and democratic behaviour that is. 

 

As as much as I wanted to stay, this whole Remain v Leave is beyond boring. It’s the highest levels of tediousness, and nothing but ideological bullshit. And those that are willing to accept the decision made 3 years ago have had enough. These results show ya nothing new at all. 

 

Fuck ‘em all. Stop finger pointing, trying to prove the other wrong and get it dealt with so we can all move on. 

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

Haven’t only 1/3 of those registered to vote  actually voted in this European Election. Sure I heard that on 5Live before.

 

If that’s true then that means 2/3’s of the country are actually the ones who are making their feelings known. By staying away. 

 

Nothing is going to change with the “success” of The Brexit Party or the “resurgence” of the Lib Dem’s getting the results they did. Both are the extreme sides of Brexit. The Lib Dem’s are disregarding the decision of the 52% that voted Leave as much as The Brexit Party are of the 48%. Proper liberal and democratic behaviour that is. 

 

As as much as I wanted to stay, this whole Remain v Leave is beyond boring. It’s the highest levels of tediousness, and nothing but ideological bullshit. And those that are willing to accept the decision made 3 years ago have had enough. These results show ya nothing new at all. 

 

Fuck ‘em all. Stop finger pointing, trying to prove the other wrong and get it dealt with so we can all move on. 

Did you read that top 10 lad? 

[Skidfingers McGonical]

2 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Did you read that top 10 lad? 

Yeah. Look what’s it done to me. 

[Davelfc]

Some countries make voting compulsory, some even ban alcohol on the day of voting. I know I've been caught on that one, unfortunately. 

[Skidfingers McGonical]

We’ve all put it on the wrong box after a few too many drinks. 

[magicrat]

Just now, 16613 said:

Some countries make voting compulsory, some even ban alcohol on the day of voting. I know I've been caught on that one, unfortunately. 

Me too, in Brasil

Hotel mini bar got emptied 

 

[magicrat]

1 minute ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

We’ve all put it on the wrong box after a few too many drinks. 

Haha

Brexit isn’t going away because people are  fed up with it . Another referendum, properly run, may get us over the current impasse but the repercussions will rumble on for many years 

[Strontium]

53 minutes ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

The Lib Dem’s are disregarding the decision of the 52% that voted Leave as much as The Brexit Party are of the 48%. Proper liberal and democratic behaviour that is. 

 

What utter dogshit. Nobody is disregarding anyone's vote. We just think the people who narrowly voted to leave should be asked if this is definitely what they want, now that they actually know what leaving entails. And yes, that is both liberal and democratic.

[Numero Veinticinco]

7 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

What utter dogshit. Nobody is disregarding anyone's vote. We just think the people who narrowly voted to leave should be asked if this is definitely what they want, now that they actually know what leaving entails. And yes, that is both liberal and democratic.

I've never, not even once, got a reply to the 'how does more democracy equal less democracy' question. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

And what will it achieve? Considering both the Brexit party were the overwhelming victors and that the remain MEPs can do fuck all and will be out of a job soon, how is it good for the country and what will happen that improves the country? 

 

You’re buoyant because our ‘team’ scored a goal. Evertonian behaviour. You don’t have to win to be a winner, because you finished a bit higher. 

Talking of unanswered questions

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I've never, not even once, got a reply to the 'how does more democracy equal less democracy' question. 

 

As David Davis said in a rare moment of insight, a democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy.

[Strontium]

16 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Talking of unanswered questions

 

I am allowed to have a life away from this forum, I hope.

 

Let's put the "overwhelming victory" for the Brexit Party in context. 17.4 million people voted to leave the United Kingdom. Less than a third of that number turned out on Thursday to vote for the Hard Brexit parties (Brexit Party/UKIP).

 

I'm buoyant because the Hard Remain parties (Lib Dem/Green/Nats/Change) outpolled the Hard Brexit parties, demonstrating that we cannot and should not be ignored.

 

And of course, those parties who have spinelessly tried to plough some middle ground on this most polarising of issues were punished as they deserved to be.

[Gnasher]

8 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

As David Davis said in a rare moment of insight, a democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy.

Numero  and Stronts god bless them are finding the world outside is not as agreeable as the nice little dream on their computer...

 

 

 Awww... not to worry boys put a cold flannel on the brow of your heads, tilt head back and take deep breaths.

 

There you go.

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

5 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

I am allowed to have a life away from this forum, I hope.

 

Let's put the "overwhelming victory" for the Brexit Party in context. 17.4 million people voted to leave the United Kingdom. Less than a third of that number turned out on Thursday to vote for the Hard Brexit parties (Brexit Party/UKIP).

 

I'm buoyant because the Hard Remain parties (Lib Dem/Green/Nats/Change) outpolled the Hard Brexit parties, demonstrating that we cannot and should not be ignored.

 

And of course, those parties who have spinelessly tried to plough some middle ground on this most polarising of issues were punished as they deserved to be.

You didn’t answer my question, Stronts. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

7 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Numero  and Stronts god bless them are finding the world outside is not as agreeable as the nice little dream on their computer...

 

 

 Awww... not to worry boys put a cold flannel on the brow of your heads, tilt head back and take deep breaths.

 

There you go.

 

 

Do actually have something to say?

[Strontium]

8 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

You didn’t answer my question, Stronts. 

 

Funny because I thought I did. Which part of it wasn't answered?