Bob Crow has passed away

[Jairzinho]

 

This will mean higher fares, of course.

 

It doesn't have to.

[Strontium]

 

not necessarily - not for a nationalised industry.  Liverpool Corporation / MPTE bus services, before they were outsourced, were fantastic.  Not only were fares less expensive in real terms, but the bus services were co-ordinated, reliable, frequent and efficient.

 

Of course, they were heavily subsidised.

 

NB I do support re-regulation of the buses. At the same time, extra money for higher wages has to come from somewhere, whether it's the user or the taxpayer.

[Stu Monty]

 

I already told you why I chose the median. Because it's a better measure. The standard measure. Like it makes a shred of difference to the point anyway.

 

No, you told me what the general consensus on using it was. It isn't the same thing.

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe that if the average was lower than the median you wouldn't have used it to make your point, as in the total tax receipts debacle.

 

That aside. Do you think that an argument about where in the echelons of the 90% tube drivers sit compared to others is a better use of our time than an argument as to why the curve seems to surge into the stratosphere once you get into that last 10%?  Don't you feel you're rather worrying about the fabric on the deckchairs on the Titanic rather then the fact the ship seems to now be in two pieces?

[stringvest]

Bus services are heavily subsidised now. The difference is that the quality of the service is now shite.

 

[stringvest]

The cost of living on London bears little relationship to the rest of the county SD. It's a silly point to fight to the death on, because it's irrelevant.

 

[Stu Monty]

Bus services are heavily subsidised now. The difference is that the quality of the service is now shite.

 

And that resources that could be put into quality are leaving the enterprise as private profits.

[Strontium]

No, you told me what the general consensus on using it was. It isn't the same thing.

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe that if the average was lower than the median you wouldn't have used it to make your point, as in the total tax receipts debacle.

Median is the established statistical standard which I have been using since school, along with other established measures like quintiles, quartiles, deciles and percentiles.

 

Frankly I don't care what you believe. It is laughable to suggest that a person with a scientific background is using standard scientific measures solely to make a political point.

 

That aside. Do you think that an argument about where in the echelons of the 90% tube drivers sit compared to others is a better use of our time than an argument as to why the curve seems to surge into the stratosphere once you get into that last 10%?  Don't you feel you're rather worrying about the fabric on the deckchairs on the Titanic rather then the fact the ship seems to now be in two pieces?

Quite evidently, some people are hugely successful at taking advantage of the opportunities they have in life.

 

Is it a better use of our time to talk about tube drivers rather than Richard Branson? Who knows, but this is a thread about tube drivers, not Richard Branson, so the question is moot.

 

Nevertheless, I continue to marvel at those people who think we can have a wealthy country without creating any wealthy people.

[Stu Monty]

Median is the established statistical standard which I have been using since school, along with other established measures like quintiles, quartiles, deciles and percentiles.

 

Frankly I don't care what you believe. It is laughable to suggest that a person with a scientific background is using standard scientific measures solely to make a political point.

 

 

Quite evidently, some people are hugely successful at taking advantage of the opportunities they have in life.

 

Is it a better use of our time to talk about tube drivers rather than Richard Branson? Who knows, but this is a thread about tube drivers, not Richard Branson, so the question is moot.

 

Nevertheless, I continue to marvel at those people who think we can have a wealthy country without creating any wealthy people.

 

It' not laughable Dog. Not from a man who man that daft tax income statement despite, as you say, knowing full well about cause and correlation.

 

You're marveling at a myth of your own construction then. Which is a silly thing to do. Stop creating straw men and them marvelling at how ridiculous they are. It's not the behaviour of a sensible thinker.

 

Do you marvel at the idea of a wealthy country where the wealthiest are not so infinitely more wealthy than the poorest and don't actively avoid paying the taxes asked of them? Do you marvel that people might think it's possible to be wealthy without the bottom 50% having none of the wealth and the top 1% having a ridiculous share of it?

[Strontium]

I'm certainly interested in hearing a solution to the issue of a very tiny number of people possessing vast amounts of wealth. Every solution posited thus far would seem to lead to them being forced out of the country or exterminated. I don't find either scenario especially desirable.

[Stu Monty]

I'm certainly interested in hearing a solution to the issue of a very tiny number of people possessing vast amounts of wealth. Every solution posited thus far would seem to lead to them being forced out of the country or exterminated. I don't find either scenario especially desirable.

 

When you say "forced" I'm presuming you're not including people threatening to leave if they have to pay a certain tax rate? Or even pay the tax rate they should be paying now, as in, pay SOME tax.

[Strontium]

Well, I don't know. Like I say, I'm interested to hear proposals.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Their job is to present facts in a way that best pleases their employers. Or they cease to be employed.

 

I asked why you chose the median for the argument. Personally.

So he can revenge neg again the big queg.

[Stu Monty]

Well, I don't know. Like I say, I'm interested to hear proposals.

 

What do you mean you don't know? I'm asking you for what you define as people being forced to leave the country and checking that asking them to pay a rate of tax isn't included in that.

[Strontium]

Well, it seems clear that higher taxes will prompt some wealthy people to leave the country, and the current exodus from France would appear to support that hypothesis, not that I'm complaining because loads of them seem to be bringing their considerable wealth and, in the case of Salma Hayek, considerable tittage, to the UK.

 

So, yes, I would like to see a plan for tax which doesn't kill the golden goose, as it were. Taxing expensive property more heavily is obviously my preferred option, but people seem to want to tax incomes, and they get very upset when you reduce the top rate of income tax.

[Stu Monty]

Well, it seems clear that higher taxes will prompt some wealthy people to leave the country, and the current exodus from France would appear to support that hypothesis, not that I'm complaining because loads of them seem to be bringing their considerable wealth and, in the case of Salma Hayek, considerable tittage, to the UK.

 

So, yes, I would like to see a plan for tax which doesn't kill the golden goose, as it were. Taxing expensive property more heavily is obviously my preferred option, but people seem to want to tax incomes, and they get very upset when you reduce the top rate of income tax.

 

Right, but you accept whatever the tax policy you aren't forcing people to leave the country, they are choosing to?

 

The whole top-rate issue is bollocks to me, shitloads don't even pay at corporation tax rate so the idea that they give a fuck what you do to the top rate on income is laughable. It's a charade or a debate generally, where the fact the some are paying fuck all isn't, as it should be, front and centre of the debate.

 

I'd be interested to see any figures on French tax receipts that have links to the tax-rate as the cause if you had any. I also think there is a level of lost revenue that is acceptable to take a stance on being a country in which fairness is seen to be important.

[VladimirIlyich]

The French economy grew by 0.3 per cent in the last three months of 2013 so their measures cant be doing too much harm.

[Strontium]

Cherry-picking data somewhat there. And the UK economy grew by 0.7% over the same period, so using your logic...

[Skidfingers McGonical]

0.7 is still a bit piss poor really, isn't it?

[VladimirIlyich]

Cherry-picking data somewhat there. And the UK economy grew by 0.7% over the same period, so using your logic...

You mentioned France being in a bad way and i simply showed an article to state a different point of view. In the same way you bang on when defending this shower of cunts in government.

As i inferred earlier,statistics can be manipulated or interpreted in any way you like.

I'd prefer to use my eyes and real people's experiences when forming opinions.

[Strontium]

0.7 is still a bit piss poor really, isn't it?

In a single quarter? You think? The UK is the fastest growing economy in Western Europe.

 

If you insist. I brought it up to counter Vlad's point. And, of course, France's 75% tax rate hasn't yet been implemented, so any effects wouldn't be seen yet.

 

You mentioned France being in a bad way and i simply showed an article to state a different point of view. In the same way you bang on when defending this shower of cunts in government.

No, I didn't say France was "in a bad way", I said wealthy people were leaving France. And whenever GDP figures are used to defend Britain's economic performance, you rubbish them, so it's somewhat hypocritical of you to turn round and use France's (inferior) growth rate to defend their policies.

 

As i inferred earlier,statistics can be manipulated or interpreted in any way you like.

I'd prefer to use my eyes and real people's experiences when forming opinions.

Actually, you didn't infer; you implied. Of course, you've yet to show how any figures have been manipulated or misinterpreted, preferring instead to take the intellectually bankrupt path of dismissing all statistics out of hand.

 

And, yes, I'm sure you'd rather cherry pick anecdotes which support your confirmation bias rather than looking at facts and figures which pertain to the overall picture. Heaven forbid that you would actually have to accept reality.

[Stu Monty]

Dog, these figures showing a French exodus?

 

If you're going to get all ranty about people not caring about facts and figures then at least show some consistency.

 

Is there a current exodus or have the effects not been felt yet? Which is it?

[Section_31]

So SD, the choice would appear to be they can not spend their money in France, or they can not spend their money in England, great stuff. The myth of the 'wealth creators' keeps getting perpetuated. If you give 10,000 industrial workers good wages and a pension they'll spend it on houses, cars and tellies. If you give that money to a billionaire he'll buy a Yacht from an Italian shipyard and hide the rest in a Zurich bank account, very productive.

[Strontium]

 

Dog, these figures showing a French exodus?

 

If you're going to get all ranty about people not caring about facts and figures then at least show some consistency.

 

Is there a current exodus or have the effects not been felt yet? Which is it?

 

I appreciate that entirely, but it's difficult to prove an exodus because France takes at least 2 years to release emigration figures, which probably tells its own story. All I can offer are specific examples of wealthy people moving or planning to move away from France, which I admit is scarcely better than the "I know a bloke who..." stories which pass for evidence on here.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Well considering multi billion corporations are consistently making profit each quarter. You would think it would grow a little more than 0.7

[Stu Monty]

 

 

I appreciate that entirely, but it's difficult to prove an exodus because France takes at least 2 years to release emigration figures, which probably tells its own story. All I can offer are specific examples of wealthy people moving or planning to move away from France, which I admit is scarcely better than the "I know a bloke who..." stories which pass for evidence on here.

 

Fair enough.

 

Lots of people plan to move away, as a threat, then don't.

 

Turns out they quite like the infrastructure, culture and civilisation that has been built with the taxation they don't want to pay, so they stay.