Chris Foy

[Jose Jones]

As I have said, the clubs should be presenting their evidence. If they don't want to present it to the FA, PL and PGMO, then actually present it to the press. The clubs shouldn't just complain through the manager in his weekly press conference on the basis of what looks like a hunch. Actually show the evidence of this referee manipulation.

 

Print it out and write the article for them? Rather than just talk about it?

Pretty weak argument. Jeff Winter, a qualified ref, testified that it happened to him, and what happened? Did the press investigate further, did the FA look into it? Fuck all happened. Insidious.

Why do you think Foy was demoted to League 2 for the first time in four years?

[Major Tom]

Print it out and write the article for them? Rather than just talk about it?

Pretty weak argument. Jeff Winter, a qualified ref, testified that it happened to him, and what happened? Did the press investigate further, did the FA look into it? Fuck all happened. Insidious.

Why do you think Foy was demoted to League 2 for the first time in four years?

 

I have no idea as to your last question. Ferguson is always complaining about referees. Do they all get demoted afterwards? That is a genuine question as, if they do, I will quickly back down here and admit I was wrong.

 

I think the clubs should be more thorough and not leave it to the press to do their dirty work. Get an evidence based dossier together and present it to the FA, PL, PGMO and anyone else who will listen. And plenty of people will listen. Refereeing manipulation on the Italian scale is a fucking massive story and the press would be all over it. I don't care who the club involved is.

[Gonzo]

I have no idea as to your last question. Ferguson is always complaining about referees. Do they all get demoted afterwards? That is a genuine question as, if they do, I will quickly back down here and admit I was wrong.

 

Did you not read the examples already highlighted for you MT? Is it your summation that all seems perfectly reasonable and above board? No hint that something, might, might just be rotten? The evidence is there for anyone who looks.

 

I think the clubs should be more thorough and not leave it to the press to do their dirty work. Get an evidence based dossier together and present it to the FA, PL, PGMO and anyone else who will listen. And plenty of people will listen. Refereeing manipulation on the Italian scale is a fucking massive story and the press would be all over it. I don't care who the club involved is.

 

There's been the biggest cover-up of all time "exposed" recently of which the FA, media, other football clubs, and football supporters from across the country were all culpable (obviously to different levels), and you've still your head in the sand about how things work in the UK. Honestly?

[RobbieOR]

Somebody wrote on here a couple of year ago that they went to Uni with Philip Don(former head of refs) kids, and they were doing a sports degree of some form and ferguson would allow dons kids to use the facilities and staff at carrington to assist in there studies.

Fuckin league is corrupt to the core, baffles me that people still think it's not

 

Yeah, I remember that.

[Major Tom]

Did you not read the examples already highlighted for you MT? Is it your summation that all seems perfectly reasonable and above board? No hint that something, might, might just be rotten? The evidence is there for anyone who looks.

 

 

Where is the evidence? Point me in the right direction and I will take a look. Maybe I have missed it.

 

But I really don't know how many times I have to say it but, I have said on numerous occasions, it's a possibility. Just I personally don't agree it's happening. Not based on what I have seen in this thread anyway.

[Quixotica]

It will be interesting to see what comes to light after Ferguson and his influence have been retired for a few years.

[TheHitman]

This fella the PGMOB spokesman is putting it down to rotation, first league 2 game since 2008...

 

https://twitter.com/PLPhilD

[setreal]

How do you think it pans out, RL?

 

How, for example, did Utd get Foy demoted if that's what people are saying here.

 

I am quite sceptical of this "Ferguson ref conspiracy" as well. That said, if someone had told me in 2004 that Juventus would be demoted to the second league soon because they had done pretty much the same thing, I'd have told them to get the fuck out. 2006 Italian football scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -> It can and has been done.

 

Now, is it likely that Ferguson is involved in something similar? I'd say probably not.

Is it possible? I'd have to say yes.

[zico]

As I have said, the clubs should be presenting their evidence. If they don't want to present it to the FA, PL and PGMO, then actually present it to the press. The clubs shouldn't just complain through the manager in his weekly press conference on the basis of what looks like a hunch. Actually show the evidence of this referee manipulation.

 

Proof is right there in the statistics! But if you don't want to see it, I guess you can choose not to!

 

Things that are simply wrong with the PL:

 

Displease Ginsoak - get demoted or no big games.

 

Jeff Winter, as stated by himself - 2 years ban from utd games.

Alain Wiley - career over after Ginsoak called him fat and unfit.

Mark Clattenberg - Not reff'ed Utd for 34 games after the 6-1 City demolition.

Mike Dean not reff'ed at OT since Blackburn won 3-2

Christ Foy - demoted after the Utd loss to Spurs. (Why wasn't Halsey demoted after gifting Utd an Anfield win?)

 

-

Howard Webb - 18% of his penalties given to Utd, over 9 year period - who would have thought!

 

Mike manc Riley the head of referees - what a joke.

 

David Gill - Chief excecutive at Utd and Board member of the FA - and we all saw how that influenced the Suarez proceedings, the biggest judicial farce in years - what a joke

[John McClane]

As other posts have stated, I think stories will be released after he retires. He should be respected but is hated. United, really Ferguson have this wont lie down attitude, doesn't mean we should allow them to walk all over us.

 

The Spurs game as example, they lose an entertaining game in which any other day they would win or draw but they lost. Instead of congratulating a young manager with his team, he drivels on about the referee.

I really hope other PL teams have watched Fulham and Spurs got to ol trafford and have a go, because if you do, you can win.

[RobbieOR]

If anyone is deluded enough to think that football is clean, then go off and read 'Broken dreams' by Tom Bower and come back to me. It exposes loads of managers and chairman.

 

If they are corrupt in terms of transfers, you can bet your life that there is some sort of corruption when it comes to referees. The game has had too much money pumped into since Sky came to the table for there not to be any.

[John McClane]

great post Zico.

[Major Tom]

Proof is right there in the statistics! But if you don't want to see it, I guess you can choose not to!

 

Things that are simply wrong with the PL:

 

Displease Ginsoak - get demoted or no big games.

 

Jeff Winter, as stated by himself - 2 years ban from utd games.

Alain Wiley - career over after Ginsoak called him fat and unfit.

Mark Clattenberg - Not reff'ed Utd for 34 games after the 6-1 City demolition.

Mike Dean not reff'ed at OT since Blackburn won 3-2

Christ Foy - demoted after the Utd loss to Spurs. (Why wasn't Halsey demoted after gifting Utd an Anfield win?)

 

These mean fuck all without context. Even as someone who believes this theory, you have to answer - or at least ask - the following questions:

 

How old was Wiley when he retired? Did he retire prematurely or at a normal age?

Is it a normal occurrence for refs to not take charge of one team for so long as in the cases of Clattenburg or Dean?

Is this the first time Foy has been demoted? Do other refs get demoted after Ferguson complains about them?

 

Again, I am not saying there is not something awry but, I am far from convinced on the basis of what you have posted there and it would need further and deeper investigating. Which I guess someone, somewhere is doing. Someone potentially has the chance to break a massive story here.

[John McClane]

If anyone is deluded enough to think that football is clean, then go off and read 'Broken dreams' by Tom Bower and come back to me. It exposes loads of managers and chairman.

 

If they are corrupt in terms of transfers, you can bet your life that there is some sort of corruption when it comes to referees. The game has had too much money pumped into since Sky came to the table for there not to be any.

 

I agree, does anyone know the standard rate for reffing a PL game or an FL game or are they contracted and have a salary so doesn't matter what level they officiate?

Point being, if you earn say £5k for a top PL game (more than likely to involve united) and earn £1k for League 2 game -would be in your (selfish) personal interests not to upset the ol bastard?

 

Another point is, Foy, from what I see off highlights had a good game, only debate would be Nani, and that wasn't a pen.

[Guest davelfc]

I agree, does anyone know the standard rate for reffing a PL game or an FL game or are they contracted and have a salary so doesn't matter what level they officiate?

Point being, if you earn say £5k for a top PL game (more than likely to involve united) and earn £1k for League 2 game -would be in your (selfish) personal interests not to upset the ol bastard?

 

Another point is, Foy, from what I see off highlights had a good game, only debate would be Nani, and that wasn't a pen.

 

I can't find (quick look) anything concrete but suggestions are of a Salary with extra £1000 per premiership game and £500 for a championship game.

[The Golden Eel]

These mean fuck all without context. Even as someone who believes this theory, you have to answer - or at least ask - the following questions:

 

How old was Wiley when he retired? Did he retire prematurely or at a normal age?

Is it a normal occurrence for refs to not take charge of one team for so long as in the cases of Clattenburg or Dean?

Is this the first time Foy has been demoted? Do other refs get demoted after Ferguson complains about them?

 

Again, I am not saying there is not something awry but, I am far from convinced on the basis of what you have posted there and it would need further and deeper investigating. Which I guess someone, somewhere is doing. Someone potentially has the chance to break a massive story here.

 

I know what you're saying and, to be honest, I agree.

[diamondjoe]

Where's there's smoke with that old booze riddled leper there's a raging wild fire burning out of control.

Media walk on eggshells round him. Bunch of arse licking yes men the lot.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

I can't find (quick look) anything concrete but suggestions are of a Salary with extra £1000 per premiership game and £500 for a championship game.

Yeah I think it might be even lower what they recieve.

 

They do get a hotel room paid for if it is a weekend match as well if i remember right.

 

But I know the actual fee for reffing a game is alot less than people think.

[John McClane]

I can't find (quick look) anything concrete but suggestions are of a Salary with extra £1000 per premiership game and £500 for a championship game.

 

-Thanks

So it is in the best interests of the ref to please the ol bastard for the sake of an additional £500 for the next match?

[DaveT]

Proof is right there in the statistics! But if you don't want to see it, I guess you can choose not to!

 

Things that are simply wrong with the PL:

 

Displease Ginsoak - get demoted or no big games.

 

Jeff Winter, as stated by himself - 2 years ban from utd games.

Alain Wiley - career over after Ginsoak called him fat and unfit.

Mark Clattenberg - Not reff'ed Utd for 34 games after the 6-1 City demolition.

Mike Dean not reff'ed at OT since Blackburn won 3-2

Christ Foy - demoted after the Utd loss to Spurs. (Why wasn't Halsey demoted after gifting Utd an Anfield win?)

 

 

-

Howard Webb - 18% of his penalties given to Utd, over 9 year period - who would have thought!

 

Mike manc Riley the head of referees - what a joke.

 

David Gill - Chief excecutive at Utd and Board member of the FA - and we all saw how that influenced the Suarez proceedings, the biggest judicial farce in years - what a joke

 

Martin Atkinson - gave some decisions to Chelsea which angered Ferguson, 1st March 2011. Next time he refereed a ManU game? Away at Spurs, 4th March 2012. He hasn't refereed a ManU match since then. Context? In 2011/12 the Chelsea game was the 4th time that season he'd reffed a ManU game. 4 matches in 8 months, then 1 match in 18 months.

[DaveT]

Btw, and as I've mentioned in another thread, whilst Chris Foy is enjoying his exile to Accrington, the hapless Mike Jones is still reffing in the Premiership, at West Brom this weekend.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

The Howard Webb penalty awarding of 18% to United seems a bit wrong to me.

 

In 30 games he has reffed them he has awarded them 9.

 

But Mike Dean has also awarded them 9 in only 29 games and Michael Jones 2 pens in 7 games.

 

It is still a high amount but 18% of all penalties to United dosent ring true somehow.

 

Seems I could be wrong as apparently he has only given 54 pens in the premiership out.

[coop]

The Howard Webb penalty awarding of 18% to United seems a bit wrong to me.

 

In 30 games he has reffed them he has awarded them 9.

 

But Mike Dean has also awarded them 9 in only 29 games and Michael Jones 2 pens in 7 games.

 

It is still a high amount but 18% of all penalties to United dosent ring true somehow.

 

Seems I could be wrong as apparently he has only given 54 pens in the premiership out.

 

It states out of all the penalties Webb has given in his career 18% of them have been to Man United.

[coop]

The Dim in Beirut

 

Please follow me on twitter: Nadim (DimmyBad) on Twitter

 

After I wrote my last piece, http://diminbeirut.typepad.com/my-bl...out-there.html, on Manchester United’s relationship with the FA, I was taken aback by the response I had.The post has gotten around 30,000 hits in the last 48 hours alone. I suggest to people who haven’t read it to jump to that post now as it gives a lot of background on what we will look at in this article.

 

As stated in my previous post, the fortunes of the institutions surrounding football in the UK will be negatively hit should any proof of corruption come out. It is naturally in their interest not to investigate the matter. In fact, the managers that have come out and questioned the refereeing selection process (Rafa Benitez, Andre Villas Boas) have been turned into laughing stocks by the English press corps.

 

So, investigate some more I did. And some of the stuff I found out surprised even me.

During United’s title winning 2010/11 season, they only lost 4 league games. I looked at who refereed those games and how long they then spent without being assigned Manchester United games as well their subsequent trend of behavior towards United.

 

Michael Oliver took charge of their first defeat, the February 2011 2-1 loss at Wolves. He was not given another Manchester United game to referee until December 2011. Since then, Oliver has had 2 United games.

 

United have won both, with Oliver refusing to give a clear Fulham penalty in the 1-0 United win late last season at Old Trafford; a game came right at the end of the title race. A few weeks ago, Oliver gave United a penalty for a shocking dive by Danny Welbeck in the home win against Wigan.

 

The second game United lost was away to Chelsea. Martin Atkinson was the referee then and some of his decisions incurred the wrath of Alex Ferguson. Atkinson was not given another United game to referee for an ENTIRE YEAR.

 

Atkinson was further punished with his decisions that went against United that day. He was not given a single premier league game to referee for a full month. Even worse, he was subsequently given 3 lower league games to referee that season- when he’d previously not officiated a single one

that campaign.

 

It seems that Atkinson was given a clear message that day.

 

The 3rd United loss came at Anfield, where a Dirk Kuyt hat trick secured a 3-1 home win. The referee that day was Phil Dowd. He was criticized by Ferguson for not sending Jamie Carragher off. In the very next United game Dowd refereed, he gave them a penalty which secured a 1-1 draw at Blackburn and their 19th league title.

 

Giving United penalties in the very next game you referee them after having been criticized is a trend we’ll soon notice.

 

The final United loss of the 2010/11 season came at the Emirates, where Chris Foy refereed a 1-0 Arsenal win. It will come to no surprise to people to know that Foy was subsequently not assigned a United league game for, again, AN ENTIRE YEAR.

 

He did however referee 2 United games in the cups during that time. The first was in the Carling Cup against Crystal Palace. He awarded United a penalty. The second was at City in the FA Cup. United got a penalty and Vincent Kompany was sent off early in the game.

 

To resume, we’ve just analyzed what happened to the 4 referees that officiated United’s 4 league losses in the 2010/11 season. 2 of them were not given any more United league games for a full year (Atkinson and Foy), a third for 9 months (Oliver). 2 of those referees gave United penalties in the very next game (Foy and Dowd) they took charge of and one refused to give a blatant one to the opponents (Oliver). Martin Atkinson, was not given premier league games to officiate for an entire month and assigned to 3 lower league games.

 

I also looked at Mike Jones after prompting from the comments board. Jones refereed the 1-1 home draw with Newcastle last season and falsely awarded Demba Ba a penalty.

 

Subsequently, Jones was not given a single football game, at ANY level, to referee for an entire month. The next United game he was handed came a few months later, the 2-0 home win against Stoke which saw… You guessed it: 2 penalties awarded to Manchester United which, according to reports, were “very soft”.

 

How about Mark Halsey? Well, when he gave WBA a debatable penalty in the 1-1 draw at Old Trafford in May 2005 it was his 5th United game that season. He then also went an ENTIRE YEAR without being given any United games to referee. From 5 games in a season to none for a year.

 

His record since then? He’s refereed 11 Man Utd games which have seen 11 United wins: the latest coming at Anfield, where 3 controversial decisions went the away team’s way.

 

In terms of trends, considering what we discovered about Alan Wiley and Mark Clattenburg (whose record with no United games to referee now stands at 36 league games since he took charge of the 6-1 home loss to City), there’s enough to make you wonder what exactly is going on in the referee selection process. It also ties in perfectly with ex referee Jeff Winter's comments about The FA being reticent to assign United games to referees Ferguson has criticized in the past.

 

The whole world revolves around incentives and punishment. From a young age, kids are brought up that way. Positive and negative reinforcement are at the very core of child psychology. You can’t blame people who are well aware of the punishment awaiting them (through the form of demotions and suspension from future United games) if they’d rather go for the safe option of keeping Ferguson happy.

 

I don’t blame the referees.

 

The people I blame are the ones that are letting this happen. The media who have not uttered a peep or written a single article about this for 2 decades. The FA who run the game in this country and have allowed this situation to fester. The clubs who see no issue with having David Gill, United's CEO, on the board of the FA. And of course, the PGMOB: the people who regulate officiating in England

 

The person at the head of the PGMOB and who is in charge of selecting which referee gets handed which game is Mike Riley, an ex professional referee who is most famous for giving a penalty for a clear dive by Wayne Rooney in the 2004 Man United 2-0 win against Arsenal which ended the

Gunners 49 game unbeaten streak.

 

Riley was accused of pro United favoritism throughout his career. For younger readers, he’s my generation’s Howard Webb.

 

According to the Guardian’s research, which goes to back to the beginning of the 1997-98 season until 2004, “Riley refereed 23 United games in all competitions and gave 12 penalties for United in that time, but only three against them. And he has sent off five of United's opponents.

 

At Old Trafford, Riley's record is weighted even more heavily in favor of United: He gave 10 penalties in the 14 games he officiated to the home side, Manchester United.”

 

Riley’s bias was so suspected than when was awarded the Everton vs Man Utd FA Cup semi final to officiate in 2009, David Moyes actually called for an investigation on whether Riley was a United supporter.

 

This is the man who now decides which premier league games to assign to referees.

 

Add that to everything we’ve found out: the year long waits for referees who take charge of United losses to be given another United game to officiate, the penalties that are given to United in said referees next United games, the punishment for making mistakes that cost United points (Atkinson’s month long suspension from premier league games, Jones’ 1 month suspension from ALL PROFESSIONAL games), the comments from ex referee Jeff Winter (see my previous post), the fact that 18% of Howard Webb’s career penalties have gone to Manchester United,the retirement of Alain Wiley after being called unfit by Alex Ferguson and, of course, the presence of David Gill inside the FA and surely there’s enough there for some investigative journalist in the UK to actually look more into this.

 

If only to put the millions of football fans’ across the world’s minds at ease.

 

Because we could all be wrong and all of this may just be a set of freakish coincidences. Maybe English football is squeaky clean like they make us believe and the referee selection process is completely unbiased.

 

Maybe we’re just paranoid…

 

Or maybe not… Chris Foy failed to give Manchester United a penalty in their 3-2 loss to Spurs last Saturday. The PGMOB have not handed Foy a Premier League game to referee next weekend: instead, he will referee in League 2 for the first time in more than 4 years.

 

Mike Jones meanwhile, who missed a blatant penalty on Luis Suarez at Norwich, will take charge of West Brom vs QPR in the Premier League. Finally, Howard Webb (who sent off Jordi Gomez on Saturday; a red card today rescinded by the FA) will take charge of Newcastle’s home game against…Manchester United.

 

Why did Foy’s errors on Saturday lead to his demotion to the lowest professional league in England while Webb’s and Jones’ mistakes didn’t cost them?

 

I guess we all know the answer to that question…

[Redshadow]

Major Tom? Think you & others should have a look at this person whose First article was posted here a bit earlier in the thread? He's done another one & Had a look at some of the stat's For us Here; Corruption and Influence Peddling in the English Game - The Dim in Beirut

 

What he's found is in some ways as alarming as it is predictable - And again? I'll say with that, what he said earlier in his first post re' all this, some of what I've read on here & an extensive knowledge not just of the Aforementioned Tom Bower book but a couple by David Conn asking questions along the right lines re' vested interests in the Premier League re' it's formation/makeup & member Clubs as well as another book all about the PL from it's formation by Chris Horrie I think? Well with that little lot? Let's just say IMO the evidence is There & pretty much piled up by now - You just have to look for it.

 

Oh & to those crowing re' English impartiality & laughing that that sort of thing only happens in Italy etc? Who do you think They learned it from? Calciopoli only Started well into the time when He was settled at Old Trafford over here - don't you think they learned it From Somewhere or more accurately Someone? Just a thought is all. Anyway have a read & see what you think - I'll leave you all to draw your own conclusions - Me? I took my head out the sand long ago. But then I? Am not a coward with a vested/economic interest in certain managers/teams doing well in this country am I? And That in a nutshell is what is wrong here - Anyway like I said? The evidence is there - have a look & see what you think; It might open a few eyes to say the least .....

Edited October 3, 2012 by Redshadow