Never buy the Mirror again

[JMARKH]

fuck em, fuck em in the ear, fuck em in the other ear

[King Emlyn]

I'm loving the siege mentality meself, long overdue.

[xerxes]

The problem with zero tolerance is exactly that, there is no tolerance..........etc

Not a bad post in full.

 

The problem at the moment is that some people are tying themselves in knots as "loyalty" is interpreted by some as condoning racism and is causing more problems than it solves.

 

1.It is unjust that anyone should be found publicly guilty of using racist language, without the evidence being made public.

 

2.It is unjust that strict liabilty should apply to newly arrived,non previously domicile non-native English speakers.

 

Both points are reasonable. They are non-contentious.They need to be calmly, and plainly made.

 

Both Luis and John Terry's agents have been circularising "player with black baby" photos. Both are ill- advised and irrelevant.

 

I have stated before, and I repeat, someone needs to get a grip of this.

 

We have a fair and reasonable case which is simply about natural justice, points one and two.They need to be focussed on and repeated.

[robbiegod]

I also hang on to the fact that the club must know more than what we do as we stand right now or they wouldn't put the whole clubs image and reputation on the line by backing someone if they weren't sure they had been harshly treated

[xerxes]

I also hang on to the fact that the club must know more than what we do as we stand right now or they wouldn't put the whole clubs image and reputation on the line by backing someone if they weren't sure they had been harshly treated

 

In advance of the formal adjudication (which should never not have been released simultaneously) it is impossible to be certain.

 

But from what we hear, it defies belief that a guilty verdict could have been delivered.Everyone is justified in feeling angry that this could have happened.

[Whelan]

The argument seems to be, Suarez may have been treated unfairly but Racism is incredibly important, and therefore you should just accept this.

 

Funny how Brian Reade managers to reference John Barnes, considering the same paper has all but ignored his comments on the situation, along with Anderson and Wrights comments, and you can only reach the conclusion that this is not about finding the truth, or defeating racism, this is about moral posturing and cowards hiding behind the 'fourth estate'.

 

The current narrative is bordering racist, and quite frankly is outright xenophobia, something which we English are so very good at, in fact world leaders I would argue. Really dissapointed in Reade because he has either missed, or ignored the political context of the FIFA/FA, allowed blatant hypocrisy by McGrath, Carlisle to go unchallenged.

 

And one thing I would like to add is this, I have followed Liverpool home and away for the better part of 20 years, and I can tell you now, racism is very much alive and well with Liverpool supporters, and at its worst what Suarez is alleged/rumoured to have said doesn't even approach the level of bile that can be heard at some grounds.

[MLB]

Zero tolerance for subtlety.

 

Zero tolerance for nuance.

 

Zero tolerance for context.

 

We all know that mainstream media is a haven for the worst kind of short-sighted, axe-grinding, bottom-feeding imbeciles, but they really have outdone themselves on this issue.

 

Fuck ALL the red tops. In fact, fuck pretty much every newspaper. They are nearly all owned by the same rich scumbags and don't deserve a penny of any of our money.

[RedAdmiral]

What's most disappointing about that Brian Reade article is that he is the one journalist that you would have expected to come out fighting for the club and its fans as god knows at this moment in time we need some support.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

I really hate the word Xenophobia.

 

It suggests that ones discrimination against foreigners is involuntary or a disease.

 

Anything but in these cases.

[Whelan]

Zero tolerance for homophobia?

 

No, we'll ignore that problem, moral leadership! No, swept under the carpet, made an example of Fowler though, anyone spot the similarity?

 

Seems strange that this is a 'societal' problem and one which needs to be addressed, yet homophobia is ignored, and cultural understanding is dismissed.

 

The media's problem isn't that we scousers have chips on our shoulders, it is that we don't trust you, and we not stupid enough to be led by you. And it really fucking annoys them.

[Strontium]

How have you dealt with the last few days. No doubt you've been having 'discussions', just like I have, on the technical points. People seem to be fucking stupid and totally ignorant of what it means to be racist or what constitutes racism. They have no desire to look at the complex factors of this case. It's been a real nightmare.

 

Some people won't even type the word 'negrito', let alone the word nigger, as if by saying these words as they're typed in the dictionary somehow makes you a racist.

 

 

The last few days have been extremely trying, but (and I promise you I mean this in all honesty) to some extent I have become inured to it because the criticism of LFC and Suarez feels like some of the criticism I've been getting over the past year and a half as a supporter of Clegg and the Lib Dems. By which I mean the media gangbang and feeding frenzy has triggered in me some of the same feelings of unfair treatment and isolation. I know you might not see things the same way (!) so I'll leave that there!

 

I keep reading a lot of shit about how words like negrito "aren't acceptable in this country" and how Suarez "should know" that it's not acceptable.

 

Why? Why is a word like negrito not acceptable? So perhaps it's a vague reference to someone's skin colour. But it's not an offensive term in Suarez's native tongue.

 

Who decides that you're not allowed to say negrito?

 

Who decides that some Spanish words aren't acceptable in the UK? Who are the self-appointed authorities who decree that bloody Johnny Foreigner's cultural usage is inferior to the proper Anglo-Saxon meat-and-two-veg way of things? Are we telling Hispanic people that they must acquiesce to our ways or face the consequences? That's the message ringing out loud and clear from the white men at the FA.

 

People say Suarez is the ignorant one, well I disagree. It's the cultural supremacists in this country who are trying to extinguish the idiosyncrasies inherent in other cultures, they are the ignorant ones. They're trying to impose their own bland vision of the future, where everyone marches to the same beat and nobody displays any of that dangerous individuality. I wouldn't be surprised if the next England kit is beige.

 

I can see no reason on Earth why someone should not be able to use inoffensive expressions from their own culture in an inoffensive manner. Anyone who tries to stop them is a PC thug.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

The last few days have been extremely trying, but (and I promise you I mean this in all honesty) to some extent I have become inured to it because the criticism of LFC and Suarez feels like some of the criticism I've been getting over the past year and a half as a supporter of Clegg and the Lib Dems. By which I mean the media gangbang and feeding frenzy has triggered in me some of the same feelings of unfair treatment and isolation. I know you might not see things the same way (!) so I'll leave that there!

 

I keep reading a lot of shit about how words like negrito "aren't acceptable in this country" and how Suarez "should know" that it's not acceptable.

 

Why? Why is a word like negrito not acceptable? So perhaps it's a vague reference to someone's skin colour. But its not an offensive term in Suarez's native tongue.

 

Who decides that you're not allowed to say negrito?

 

Who decides that some Spanish words aren't acceptable in the UK? Who are the self-appointed authorities who decree that bloody Johnny Foreigner's cultural usage is inferior to the proper Anglo-Saxon meat-and-two-veg way of things? Are we telling Hispanic people that they must acquiesce to our ways or face the consequences? That's the message ringing out loud and clear from the white men at the FA.

 

People say Suarez is the ignorant one, well I disagree. It's the cultural supremacists in this country who are trying to extinguish the idiosyncrasies inherent in other cultures, they are the ignorant ones. They're trying to impose their own bland vision of the future, where everyone marches to the same beat and nobody displays any of that dangerous individuality. I wouldn't be surprised if the next England kit is beige.

 

I can see no reason on Earth why someone should not be able to use inoffensive expressions from their own culture in an inoffensive manner. Anyone who tries to stop them is a PC thug.

 

It's nice to totally agree. I've been making the same sorts of arguments. It's been really testing.

 

People seem scared to say anything regarding race, to the point where we need to pretend that it doesn't exist or be deemed racist. It seems to grow from the illusion that caucasian is the 'default' ethnicity. Anything different to that mustn't be mentioned. We all have bodies, don't we? We all have race and ethnicity. We can mention that without being racists.

 

We must also accept that other countries aren't so hung-up on this idea of race as a taboo subject. That we can call and describe people by how they actually look without being prejudiced towards them for it. I mean, the word racist actually has a meaning. It doesn't mean 'affectionate words for other races', it means discriminatory and prejudice based on race (which has its own meaning and doesn't just stop at ethnicity).

 

I agree with your point about ignorance, even if Luis was naive to have used a word like that in this country against that player. Evra knows full well what was meant. Not that meaning seems to matter. Not that context matters. It's all about how it's received, apparently. That's the cart leading the horse.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

Strontium Dog talking sense

 

[The Big Step]

If you start from the position that Suarez isn't guilty of any wrongdoing, then the response from the club and players has been 100% spot on. But no journalist, including Reade, seems willing to even countenance the possibility that Suarez is innocent of wrongdoing.

 

In this instance, I don't think it's correct to call them "journalists". Spineless supine shills for a corrupt football authority is more like it. Reade is trying to play both sides of the fence, so he's not just a shill, he's a two-faced cunt an' all.

 

spot...the fuck...on!

[torahboy]

How contaminated is this 'moral high ground' now that it is inhabited by Ferguson, Man United, assorted PFA retards, the FA and the low level intelligence that we know as football journalists? Paul McGrath would be up there with them but he got pissed and missed his flight.

 

This Is Britain 2011. Where racism is being kept alive by those foreigners who don't understand our ways. And I am in total agreement with Strontium Dog for the second time in week. These are indeed strange days.

[dave u]

It's not an "unacceptable word", it's a word he'll have used his entire life. As he was talking in his native language, it was perfectly acceptable! If he'd used a racially questionable word IN ENGLISH then he'd have used an "unacceptable" word.

 

This is the key point, and the one that so many people - even intelligent ones - seem to be totally incapable of grasping.

 

I should also add that Evra was speaking in Spanish too. He speaks it well enough to be able to insult Suarez's sister and make disparaging remarks about South America, but apparently not well enough to understand that 'negro' is not offensive. I call bullshit.

[MLB]

Funny thing is, we are the ones now having the important conversations about race that the press and reactionary fans of other clubs are not. They are not taking on board any of the complexities of the issue. They are not looking at their own prejudices or hideous sense of cultural superiority. In fact, they are not really doing anything except presenting fallacious appeals to authority and competing to see who can scream "UNACCEPTABLE" the loudest.

[TheDrowningMan]

This is the key point, and the one that so many people - even intelligent ones - seem to be totally incapable of grasping.

 

I should also add that Evra was speaking in Spanish too. He speaks it well enough to be able to insult Suarez's sister and make disparaging remarks about South America, but apparently not well enough to understand that 'negro' is not offensive. I call bullshit.

 

It just seems so blindingly obvious to me, and I'm honestly furious and incredulous that no one bothers to put the thought into it. It's simple addition, it's no more difficult than adding four and four as long as you're willing to engage for a moment or two.

 

I think I can say without projecting a wildly inflated opinion of myself that I'm a reasonably intelligent man, but not everyone who is ignoring that point is cretinous, they can't be. So what is it?

 

I've long found intriguing the way that mass opinion - almost always arbitrated by media of some kind - holds sway to the point that people will wilfully refuse to consider anything to the contrary, even when you provide evidence that an open-mind would, at the very least, digest and contemplate. It's the abject refusal to even reach that level, and frankly, it scares the living daylights out of me, because that is power.

 

That is real, undiluted power on a scale that I cannot fully comprehend.

[SwindleThis]

LOL

 

We are fast running out of rags to read ;)

 

Fuck the "media"

 

i'll treat them with the contempt they deserve.

[TheDrowningMan]

If I may provide an addendum to my previous post, I'd like to say that I think the biggest frustration to me is that barring a smoking gun which makes clear the Luis did deliver intentionally provocative language (regardless of dialect), we are seeing a man's reputation sullied with such gusto, such relish. I'm hardly a great crusader, but I've done my bit to contribute towards the eventuality of a less judgmental and discriminatory world, and to see people who would usually be united with me in that walk hand-in-hand with characters for whom diversity exists only to be the punchline of crass jokes is just sickening, and I will never, ever donate my time or money to any of the groups who have spoken in such a reactionary way, for they are part of the problem. They have a diversity problem, and emit a gas every bit as malodorous as the Daily Mail and its far-right brethren.

 

Sickening, gut-wrenching and heartbreaking, and if I think about it too much, I want to punch a wall.

 

This goes far, far beyond football. I have never, ever been so bothered about anything related to on-field issues. No result has ever, ever fuelled so much disgust. No lazy chancer collecting his wages with minimal effort, no inept official seeking the limelight, no cynical foul. This is a flagrant attempt to string someone up and lynch him for speaking a different language and having grown up in a different culture.

 

This isn't someone who used a phrase that would be construed as remotely offensive in his own land, this isn't someone who, with a few choice words, delivered the insult in English, in which case one would easily reach the conclusion that the words were levied with intent.

 

It stinks, it fucking stinks.

[Faustus]

It's a rag written for idiots. Why would the fact it has an headline for idiots on the back page shock everyone?

 

Quite right, Monty, but The Guardian (especially Daniel Taylor) haven't really covered themselves in glory covering this either.

[zico]

I think what it boils down to is people ( The FA, the press) have been waiting to jump all over something like this for a long time and it doesn't matter if the case is cut and dry or not

 

This, and also for the fall guy to foreign in order not to sully the reputation of anyone connected to the three lions...

 

The same way they threw the book at Mascherano, the one and only during their respect campaign...

 

Call me suspicious, but the fact that this happens to two of our best foreigners in games against Utd makes me think Ginsoak is playing puppets again...

[Delmar]

Maybe there's still another perspective here. I tend to think based on what has been reported so far that both players intended to wind each other up, both used words to insult, as is normal on the pitch. However, one took advantage of the situation to make it worse than it really was.

 

Sure, cultural background makes a difference. When I lived in Kenya, the locals would call me Mzungu. Kids in the villages would run after me and and yell "mzungu, mzungu", as they had not really come across white people too much. That was just innocent stuff, they were surprised and described me as they saw me. Then the same term was used by my colleagues in a demeaning fashion, a foreigner who has no clue (which I often had...). And to make it worse, the same term can be used to mean a boss.

 

In Suarez's case we have done what we've done. I'm all for it, I'd like to see the reasoning, but I would also like to see common sense prevail. Football players insult each other in every match. If the reasoning is as reported in the press, and nothing new comes up, I'd side with Blatter, handshake, and get on with it.

[xerxes]

Quite right, Monty, but The Guardian (especially Daniel Taylor) haven't really covered themselves in glory covering this either.

 

When I went to the newsagents this morning, it was doing it's normal trade.

 

It is the absence of an adjudication which is causing the bulk of the problems.

 

What is also missing is any attempt at news management by LFC.

[silverlining]

So he i s saying its negro he used.I think for the fact it is that and not negrito he used will change some peoples take upon the case.

 

Fuck me sideways but you are a thick cunt