Re introduction of standing debate - Liverpool.

[bri]

The modern version of standing seems to be a seat that can cater for someone to stand against, rather than a return to terrace which allows freedom of movement for the individual. Control over the access into grounds has improved so as I see it you would still be stood in someones seat so to speak.

 

Rather than the end holds 15,000 people and we've sold 15,000 tickets with no specific seat allocation. You also wouldn't end up in a situation where the end held 15,000 seats and now we can sell 20,000 with terracing.

 

The debate seems to be, do you make it safer for someone to stand in a seat, rather than a return to terracing which I think is to far to be considered.

 

The main issue to control the environment inside the ground is the management, flow of people outside.

[JohnnyH]

I really can't believe that on something as emotive and as important to our club as this subject that I've been "negged" for my views.

 

Negs should be a jokey thing. To use them in this issue is for a whole new level of idiot.

 

The "negger" will remain unidentified, but I just had to say here to that person that you are beyond pathetic. This is a serious subject. If you disagree with a view then express proper reasons why and join the discussion. Bellend.

 

 

In regards to the subject itself. It is foolish to ignore the fact that there is standing at every single ground now in areas not designed for it. We need to look into this from a safety standpoint alone.

 

I fully understand the view some people want to have that they will be led by the Hillsborough families, but there needs to be a full debate with all sides given full voice and fair hearing as to their views.

[aws]

Standing in segregated standing areas is far safer than standing in areas with fixed seats.

 

The only times I've ever been close to injury in a ground is when people have toppled over the back of my seat during celebrations nearly pushing me over the seat in front. Well apart from the time I got pinned one leg each side of the corner of a wall leaving Maine Road.

[Flying Pig]

I may get shouted down here but i'm one who would one day like to see a return to standing. Standing didn't cause Hillsborough, it was police incompetence and a shoddy infrastructure within the game itself.

 

I partially agree.

 

Some people are forgetting the main reason for the tragedy was not the terracing or standing. If there was a safe compromise similiar to the German model I would be for it.

 

Regardless of the decision from the FA etc, LFC will decide independently what is best for this club.

[zigackly]

I can understand why some people won't even consider it as it is an emotive subject for all of us.

 

Personally I don't think there is any argument that safe standing areas are AT LEAST as safe as seating; mostly because they are actually just seats that lift up, with a little barrier to stop you flying arse over tit when we score ...

[Guest davelfc]

I think the german example of safe standing should be tried here in the UK. I don't think we should be at the front of that trial, although I can see an argument for people to say we should.

 

I believe it is true that safe standing, like the german example, is far safer than standing in seats which we currently have at most games.

 

The safe standing doesn't crowd people in, it has an assigned place and there are seats for people to sit down at half time. Personally because my knees are fucked I prefer to sit, hence I would never get a kop ticket anymore for myself as all that up and down fucks me up.

[Juan Galonso]

I asked the question on here after the 20th Anniversary a couple of years ago if Hillsborough had never happened where do people think football would have been today? Without the Taylor Report and it's recommendations would things have changed the way they have since 1989? Would we have all-seater stadiums anyway with the inception on the PL and Sky money in 1992 and the game becoming "trendy" in the mid 90s especially in light of Euro 96 after it being in the dark ages in the 70s and 80s?

 

All seater stadiums has priced a lot of fans out of the game as the clubs continue to fleece and it is more middle class now than ever in general with corporate sponsors etc.

[Juan Galonso]

Edit: Double post.

[torahboy]

That's bullshit.

 

It was caused by there being too many fans in a space not designed to hold them. The police having their heads up their arses caused that. Can you imagine how much worse it would have been if there had been seats, and therefore even less room?

 

Standing was nothing to do with what happened that day. If the police never treated our fans like animals and waited and waited as an eager crowd gathered and got more and more frustrated outside the stadium before opening the floodgates and not bothering to try to direct people to alternate parts of the stand then everyone would have left safe. If those same police didn't stand and do fuck all when they could see the problem starting to happen, lives would have been saved.

 

Anyone who thinks that number of people in that small space would have been made safer by adding in seats, simply isn't thinking. No one wants those terraces back. Unfortunately the families will never listen to alternatives, as is their right. But I'm not going to agree with them just because of the tragedies they have endured.

 

[Safe standing has been proven to be safe

 

The truth is standing will NEVER stop and standing in a designated safe standing area is much safer than standing in front of or on top of chairs.

 

 

 

The incompetence of the police was the deciding factor in what happened at Hillsborough, and the packing of people into a confined space was the norm when terraces were all standing. To argue that there would have been less room had Leppings Lane been seated is absolute bollocks.

 

On The Kop these days you may be close to your neighbour but you have MORE room than you would have ever have enjoyed before it became all seater. Personal space is increased by the presence of seats. And I state again that had Hillsborough been all seated the disaster would not have occurred.

 

The worst incidents in seated areas have come about due to factors other than the presence of seats: the Bastia tragedy was due to a faulty temporary structure collapsing, while the deaths at Bradford were caused by locked exits stopping people escaping from a fire in a decrepit wooden stand. So, for me, seating doesn't seem to add to the perils of attending a match.

 

Of course 'safe standing' could be introduced but I doubt very much that it would have any great appeal to the clubs simply because it would cost them money resdesigning the current terracing.

 

I can't find any greater argument against standing than what happened at Hillsborough. The chance of a re-run of such a tragedy, no matter how remote, should never be taken.

[zigackly]

Are people equating safe standing with old style terracing and missing the point? All we are talking about really is seats that lift up, and something to stop you falling forward.

 

Why is that such a bad idea in principle? People stand anyway; this would just make it better.

 

I'm not trying to be objectionable, I'm genuinely interested to hear what's so bad about the idea.

[JohnnyH]

I asked the question on here after the 20th Anniversary a couple of years ago if Hillsborough had never happened where do people think football would have been today? Without the Taylor Report and it's recommendations would things have changed the way they have since 1989? Would we have all-seater stadiums anyway with the inception on the PL and Sky money in 1992 and the game becoming "trendy" in the mid 90s especially in light of Euro 96 after it being in the dark ages in the 70s and 80s?

 

All seater stadiums has priced a lot of fans out of the game as the clubs continue to fleece and it is more middle class now than ever in general with corporate sponsors etc.

 

It's a very good point.

 

Hillsborough completely changed every aspect of football. It forced the authorities to accept that they simply couldn’t treat us like animals any more, and as John says above, that had a ripple effect throughout the game resulting in a safe family friendly environment now at stadia, which is great to see, but also certain sections of fans been completely priced out of the game which is a real shame.

 

The changes had to happen, but like in so many things, they have gone far too far.

 

A safe standing area could also be much more reasonably priced with the overall match day revenue improved for the bean counters and in turn more money for players. But most importantly, absolutely no impact on safety. In fact, by having safe standing areas, safety will be improved as opposed to the people currently standing in areas not designed for it.

[zigackly]

I don't think it will make any difference to price at all Johnny. We're not talking about increasing capacity as that would raise safety concerns and should rightly be swerved.

[bri]

There's a debate around terraces and the increased capacity that could help to bring prices down for the fan, certainly a good one. IMO and that's all it is the PL has moved so far away from that the likelihood of that returning is thin. I also don't have the trust in the old bill to be able to manage that consistently and effectively. The only way to get prices down is to get a bigger stadium with more bums on seats. But then someone will say all you do is increase the number of your baseline ticket price and not actually see a reduction.

[JohnnyH]

I don't think it will make any difference to price at all Johnny. We're not talking about increasing capacity as that would raise safety concerns and should rightly be swerved.

 

If, for example, the Lower Anny was changed to a safe standing area, then surely by reducing the original sitting space by 4-6 inches you would be able to fit in another few rows of seats? Factor in the averages and divide by the higher capacity and you could reduce ticket prices for a couple of pound?

[PestiRed]

I wouldn't have an issue with standing if it could be done safely. As pointed out, Hillsborough was a result of incompetent policing & a poor stadium design & maintenance. My problem here is that I don't believe the police are now fully competent in crowd control & I don't trust every club not to cut corners in design to save a few pennies.

[Guest davelfc]

If, for example, the Lower Anny was changed to a safe standing area, then surely by reducing the original sitting space by 4-6 inches you would be able to fit in another few rows of seats? Factor in the averages and divide by the higher capacity and you could reduce ticket prices for a couple of pound?

 

I love your optimism, those extra few pounds would never come back to the fans.

 

The seats are close enough together now that I do not think you could get them much closer. I already share my seat with the people on each side who are.... of a larger build in the middle.

[Steve Holt]

The incompetence of the police was the deciding factor in what happened at Hillsborough, and the packing of people into a confined space was the norm when terraces were all standing. To argue that there would have been less room had Leppings Lane been seated is absolute bollocks.

 

On The Kop these days you may be close to your neighbour but you have MORE room than you would have ever have enjoyed before it became all seater. Personal space is increased by the presence of seats. And I state again that had Hillsborough been all seated the disaster would not have occurred.

 

The worst incidents in seated areas have come about due to factors other than the presence of seats: the Bastia tragedy was due to a faulty temporary structure collapsing, while the deaths at Bradford were caused by locked exits stopping people escaping from a fire in a decrepit wooden stand. So, for me, seating doesn't seem to add to the perils of attending a match.

 

Of course 'safe standing' could be introduced but I doubt very much that it would have any great appeal to the clubs simply because it would cost them money resdesigning the current terracing.

 

I can't find any greater argument against standing than what happened at Hillsborough. The chance of a re-run of such a tragedy, no matter how remote, should never be taken.

 

There is more "personal space" in the Kop now because you can fit far less people in, specifically because of the seats. So if you take the same number of people rushing in to the Leppings Lane end and add seats, which means you can fit about 60% of the people you could without seats, then it would absolutely have been worse. You are wrong. Doesn't matter how many times you "state it", it wont change the fact you are wrong.

 

And like Johnny H I can't believe I have been negged for my opinion on this. Fucking grow up. It's pathetic. Mind you, I'd expect nothing less from the cunt that did it anyway.

[Juan Galonso]

The people who are saying "your wrong" on this thread and negging etc shouldn't be. There is no right or wrong on this subject IMO. It is down to personal preference on a delicate subject.

 

I personally would welcome a return to standing areas but it doesn't make me right or wrong and I totally respect someone who has the opposite view.

[Red Nick]

Hillsborough familes reject safe standing proposal > Local News > News | Click Liverpool

 

We should respect their views and for me that is end of the debate

[Steve Holt]

Hillsborough familes reject safe standing proposal > Local News > News | Click Liverpool

 

We should respect their views and for me that is end of the debate

 

There is a massive difference between respect someone's views and not having any views of your own.

[Juan Galonso]

Hillsborough familes reject safe standing proposal > Local News > News | Click Liverpool

 

We should respect their views and for me that is end of the debate

 

What happened to a democratic society like Nick??? Yeah respecting is one thing but it doesn't mean they have to be agreed with either as long as as you say it is done respectfully.

 

The old Kop never had an ounce of trouble as did most big terraced stands back in the day like the old Stretford End, North Bank and Holte End etc. Hillsborough could have happened years earlier than it did in that ground I think Spurs fans had some bother there in the early 80s for instance. I wouldn't have wished that on any fans but law of averages at that stadium it was sadly Liverpool FC that suffered.

[Red Nick]

Misses the point entirely

[Steve Holt]

Misses the point entirely

 

Wow quoting the neg now.

 

It doesn't miss any point at all.

[Jarvinja Ilnow]

Hillsborough familes reject safe standing proposal > Local News > News | Click Liverpool

 

We should respect their views and for me that is end of the debate

 

I agree we should respect their views but as someone else said, you can respect without totally agreeing. To say 'end of debate' isn't helpful: this is an issue that should always be up for discussion because, if nothing else, it reminds us not to take safety for granted and bury our heads in the sand.

 

If in a future disaster, god forbid, the current seating option is proved to be unsafe and there had already been a safer option at hand (eg safe standing), how would we feel knowing it could have been prevented? There shouldn't be taboos when discussing safety and protecting supporters. Safe standing may not be the best option, but if it is an improvement on what we currently have then it would be negligent not to even consider it.

[torahboy]

There is more "personal space" in the Kop now because you can fit far less people in, specifically because of the seats. So if you take the same number of people rushing in to the Leppings Lane end and add seats, which means you can fit about 60% of the people you could without seats, then it would absolutely have been worse. You are wrong. Doesn't matter how many times you "state it", it wont change the fact you are wrong.

 

And like Johnny H I can't believe I have been negged for my opinion on this. Fucking grow up. It's pathetic. Mind you, I'd expect nothing less from the cunt that did it anyway.

 

 

 

I don't know who negged you for your opinion, it certainly wasn't me and would hate for people to get the impression that it was.

 

There is no 'fact' that I am wrong. No more than your theory about 'the same number' of fans (I presume you mean the numbers at Leppings Lane on the fateful day) trying to fill an area with a '60%' decrease in capacity due to the presence of seats, can be proven or disproved.

 

So let me state once again, and finally, that I believe seats at Leppings Lane would have ensured that the catastophy of '89 would not have happened.