Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Bruce Spanner]

We can still get turps in the shops I see, we haven't hit crisis point yet then, thankfully.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

29 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

The country might benefit from a period of rationing

Anyone remember seeing that on the side of a bus?

[Bruce Spanner]

5 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Anyone remember seeing that on the side of a bus?

 

At the liaison committee yesterday he was so up to his neck in lies that he used the £350m as justification for believing him as 'when you really drill down there was some truth there' and that was how he deflected telling the truth by telling you that a lie he told was worth listening to as there might be a germ of truth to it if you squint, suspend disbelief and have a full frontal lobotomy.

 

I'm angry again now, bollocks.

 

Today was going alright until I thought of that.

 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

15 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

She's saying that UK food production  (like every other sector in the economy) has developed over the last few decades in the context of EU membership and that the consequences of of leaving are unknown, but are obviously disruptive.

 

Now, we could all slap each other on the back and pretend that the only - or even the likeliest - consequence is the sunlit uplands of a workers' paradise; or we could take a look at the absolute cunts who led the Brexit campaign and now lead the country and conclude that they may not have our best interests at heart.

[Gnasher]

22 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

But that article last year was about a British firm breaking British laws (poorly enforced by British authorities) and exploiting British workers. If anything, it supports the argument that the problem isn't the EU or migrant workers: it's a UK system that rewards and encourages exploitative bosses. That problem isn't going away.

I didn't say it was an eu problem, I was more bigging up the journalist tbh. You're right the problem isn't going away but being in the EU didn't stop it.

 

Out of interest what did you make of her assertions into warehouse workers and possible changes in British working practices in factories/warehouses because of free movement workers? I thought her report made valid and interesting points and she's not a nutty tory Brexiteer. 

[Gnasher]

17 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

She's saying that UK food production  (like every other sector in the economy) has developed over the last few decades in the context of EU membership and that the consequences of of leaving are unknown, but are obviously disruptive.

 

Now, we could all slap each other on the back and pretend that the only - or even the likeliest - consequence is the sunlit uplands of a workers' paradise; or we could take a look at the absolute cunts who led the Brexit campaign and now lead the country and conclude that they may not have our best interests at heart.

 "Developed"?  intresting choice of word by you there Angry. I do not think EU workers being able to stand for twelve hours a day is "development" or I doubt neither does she. Do you? You condone these "developments' because of the movement of people's?  It was a fucking shitshow which saw the mass exploitation of workers at the detriment of other workers. 

 

No argument with me on your second point, Angry, I agree one hundred per cent.

[Gnasher]

41 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

You still pretending there's been a big power shift from bosses to workers? Bless you.  Just try to tear your eyes away from those sunlit uplands when you're crossing the road  - tiredness kills.

Well it's undoubtedly improving, certainly in blue collar trades. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

14 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

I didn't say it was an eu problem, I was more bigging up the journalist tbh. You're right the problem isn't going away but being in the EU didn't stop it.

 

Out of interest what did you make of her assertions into warehouse workers and possible changes in British working practices in factories/warehouses because of free movement workers? I thought her report made valid and interesting points and she's not a nutty tory Brexiteer. 

She's absolutely right that things are going to have to change; I've just got no confidence that they're going to change in a way that benefits workers.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

10 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 "Developed"?  intresting choice of word by you there Angry. I do not think EU workers being able to stand for twelve hours a day is "development" or I doubt neither does she. Do you? You condone these "developments' because of the movement of people's?  It was a fucking shitshow which saw the mass exploitation of workers at the detriment of other workers. 

 

No argument with me on your second point, Angry, I agree one hundred per cent.

You're reading a bit much into the word "developed" there: I meant it in the sense that businesses existed and operated in the context of EU Membership for decades and that affected just about all their decisions - what they bought and sold, where they bought and sold it, etc. as well as who they employed. In the UK, weak unions and laws which permit exploitation (together with market forces that reward exploitation) meant that migrant workers were often exploited. The migrant workers have gone, but everything else that led to their exploitation is still in place.

[Gnasher]

30 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

You're reading a bit much into the word "developed" there: I meant it in the sense that businesses existed and operated in the context of EU Membership for decades and that affected just about all their decisions - what they bought and sold, where they bought and sold it, etc. as well as who they employed. In the UK, weak unions and laws which permit exploitation (together with market forces that reward exploitation) meant that migrant workers were often exploited. The migrant workers have gone, but everything else that led to their exploitation is still in place.

No everything that led to their exploitation is not in place, the work pool is no longer there. The results of taking the cheap labour are obvious to see, employers are having to increase wages and adjust to staff shortages. Almost every serious political commentator has acknowledged this. The head of the Haulage industry has said drivers have/are receiving substantial wage increases, other lower paid professions the same. It's the biggest re adjustment between worker/employees for a very long time and as Tim Martin acknowledged its the worker who now has the upper hand. You're just pretending it's not happening.

 

 

[Gnasher]

"Lack of available workers could push up.wages" you don't fucking say....

 

It's like a workforce britpop out there..

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/08/uk-employers-struggle-with-worst-labour-shortage-since-1997

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

No everything that led to their exploitation is not in place, the work pool is no longer there. The results of taking the cheap labour are obvious to see, employers are having to increase wages and adjust to staff shortages. Almost every serious political commentator has acknowledged this. The head of the Haulage industry has said drivers have/are receiving substantial wage increases, other lower paid professions the same. It's the biggest re adjustment between worker/employees for a very long time and as Tim Martin acknowledged its the worker who now has the upper hand. You're just pretending it's not happening.

 

 

I said "everything else is still in place".  It really is.  There are currently some short-term benefits for workers arising from labour shortages (caused by the pandemic and Brexit); nobody is denying that. The question is, what happens next?  Will the Tories and the bosses

(a)  say "ah, well, it was nice while it lasted, but the workers have the upper hand now, so we'll have to make sure they have decent pay and conditions"; or

(b)  find new means of exploitation  (e.g. by changing the laws, so they are even more heavily weighted against the workers) to tip the balance of power back in their favour.

 

Obviously (a) would be lovely, but somehow I don't see it.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

39 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

"Lack of available workers could push up.wages" you don't fucking say....

 

It's like a workforce britpop out there..

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/08/uk-employers-struggle-with-worst-labour-shortage-since-1997

Did you read the rest of that article?  It's really not good news.

 

The suggestion there is that the pandemic is the main driver of labour shortages.  I suspect that's played no small part in the government's decision to prematurely end restrictions, end furlough, end tenancy protections, etc.

[Colonel Bumcunt]

lol

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/08/were-all-in-the-same-boat-employers-on-worker-shortages-in-england

[Gnasher]

28 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I said "everything else is still in place".  It really is.  There are currently some short-term benefits for workers arising from labour shortages (caused by the pandemic and Brexit); nobody is denying that. The question is, what happens next?  Will the Tories and the bosses

(a)  say "ah, well, it was nice while it lasted, but the workers have the upper hand now, so we'll have to make sure they have decent pay and conditions"; or

(b)  find new means of exploitation  (e.g. by changing the laws, so they are even more heavily weighted against the workers) to tip the balance of power back in their favour.

 

Obviously (a) would be lovely, but somehow I don't see it.

What happens next has little to do with us belonging to the EU though, that's our own stupid government. I'm more sure than ever that with a sensible left wing progressive govt Brexit would have long term real benefits for medium-low paid workers. Bevan, Foot, Atlee, Benn were right, the EU has proven itself to be little more than a capitalist pig market, it stinks.

[Gnasher]

11 minutes ago, Colonel Bumcunt said:

lol

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/08/were-all-in-the-same-boat-employers-on-worker-shortages-in-england

"We've had to increase our pay" 

 

Awww shucks, those poor landowners...

 

Its fucking great, power to the people.  

[AngryOfTuebrook]

14 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

What happens next has little to do with us belonging to the EU though, that's our own stupid government. I'm more sure than ever that with a sensible left wing progressive govt Brexit would have long term real benefits for medium-low paid workers. Bevan, Foot, Atlee, Benn were right, the EU has proven itself to be little more than a capitalist pig market, it stinks.

With a sensible, left wing, progressive government, EU membership  - free movement and all - could have had greater long-term benefits for workers. 

[Gnasher]

Just now, AngryOfTuebrook said:

With a sensible, left wing, progressive government, EU membership  - free movement and all - could have had greater long-term benefits for workers. 

It fucking wouldn't, free movement is nothing more than cheap labour, pure and simple exploitation. The O'connor tweet from the Ft further up the thread explains some of its dirty workings far better than I could. Weve had years upon years of overseas workers being exploited, whilst driving down the true value of their wages. What we are witnessing now is an adjustment of wages/work to their true value.

 

 

Seems big business agrees with you though Angry, 

 

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/28/combat-staff-shortages-by-relaxing-brexit-immigration-rules-says-cbi?__twitter_impression=true

 

[Gnasher]

Wage rises in traditional working class occupations not rocking some posters boats on here I see.

[Gnasher]

14 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

With a sensible, left wing, progressive government, EU membership  - free movement and all - could have had greater long-term benefits for workers. 

You've just read a report showing free movement changing working practices for the worse and you're still promoting the shit.. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

It fucking wouldn't, free movement is nothing more than cheap labour, pure and simple exploitation. The O'connor tweet from the Ft further up the thread explains some of its dirty workings far better than I could. Weve had years upon years of overseas workers being exploited, whilst driving down the true value of their wages. What we are witnessing now is an adjustment of wages/work to their true value.

Those links you used to post show that free movement had little, if any, effect on wages and jobs: what negative impacts there were (small impacts, but ones which fell disproportionately on lower-paid jobs) did not come from free movement in a vacuum: they came from free movement in the context of UK policies and regulations which encourage exploitation. 

 

It's wildly optimistic and naive (not to mention unsupported by evidence) to think that current Covid-driven labour shortages represent a long-term adjustment. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

10 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Seems big business agrees with you though Angry, 

 

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/28/combat-staff-shortages-by-relaxing-brexit-immigration-rules-says-cbi?__twitter_impression=true

 

They don’t. 

 

If you'd been paying attention, you'd know that I want Covid restrictions and furloughs to continue until it's safe: and I want workers and their unions to have more rights.

[Gnasher]

Just now, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Those links you used to post show that free movement had little, if any, effect on wages and jobs: what negative impacts there were (small impacts, but ones which fell disproportionately on lower-paid jobs) did not come from free movement in a vacuum: they came from free movement in the context of UK policies and regulations which encourage exploitation. 

 

It's wildly optimistic and naive (not to mention unsupported by evidence) to think that current Covid-driven labour shortages represent a long-term adjustment. 

Not true, the ending of free movement has had a massive effect on wages in the UK, we are witnessing the effect now and its as expected good for traditional working class occupations.

 

Are you honestly saying the wage increases given these past few months to fruit pickers, hospitality workers, haulage etc would have been given if we were still in the EU? Really? 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

5 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

You've just read a report showing free movement changing working practices for the worse and you're still promoting the shit.. 

No. I read a report into UK bosses in some sectors using lax regulations and piss-poor enforcement to exploit migrant workers. 

[Gnasher]

Just now, AngryOfTuebrook said:

No. I read a report into UK bosses in some sectors using lax regulations and piss-poor enforcement to exploit migrant workers. 

Which changed working practices for all in the industry for the worse throughout the UK. Well thanks but no thanks for that one.