Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Dave D]

The only way you would conclude that "some people" on here think that all immigrants are super hard working would be if you can't read or comprehend properly.

Come on Stu- your better than that- thats just lazy petulance

[Stu Monty]

Come on Stu- your better than that- thats just lazy petulance

What?

 

It apparently needed clarifying again. So I did.

 

Unless you want to quote these post where "some people" have led you to that conclusion?

[Dave D]

What?

 

It apparently needed clarifying again. So I did.

 

Unless you want to quote these post where "some people" have led you to that conclusion?

What needed clarifying again?

[Section_31]

I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.

[Stu Monty]

What needed clarifying again?

 

That "some people" don't think that every immigrant is hard working.

 

This really isn't that hard to follow.

[Dave D]

That "some people" don't think that every immigrant is hard working.

 

This really isn't that hard to follow.

I like you Stu.

 

The tone you take always makes me think of-

[moof]

Brilliant post!

How many immigrants walk into this country unchecked, with assault rifles? I know of none.

[VladimirIlyich]

I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.

We have to stay.

I have no wavering about it now!

[VladimirIlyich]

How many immigrants walk into this country unchecked, with assault rifles? I know of none.

My feelings exactly.

How many 'terrorists' or mercenaries from Britain walk into other countries,particularly African ones with civil unrest going on? I'd say we export a few bad eggs ourselves,Marbella, Malaga etc are among the hotspots.

[Stu Monty]

I like you Stu.

 

The tone you take always makes me think of-

 

Yes, quite the powerfully intellectual response.

 

I'll take it that's been clarified then.

 

That you could only come to the conclusion people think that if you didn't follow what they were saying or wanted to make it up.

 

Glad that's sorted.

[VladimirIlyich]

The arguments to stay in focus on the British government being able to control pretty much everything. Well,unless you are a multi millionaire,then how have they been treating you for the last 20 years?

Think that will get any better?

Dont be stupid.

[thechap]

Okay so tell us how many times the EU freedom of movement policy has led to a terrorist act in the UK? You seem to be fully behind IDS on this one so it shouldn't be hard to give us facts and figures.

 

No, I can't because I haven't researched into the backgrounds of all those involved in terrorist acts on these shores.  There very obviously has been elsewhere though. Paris?

 

What you could do yourself though with about 10 minutes of research is produce a long list of murdered people who are dead thanks to the Schengen Agreement.

 

allowing who less freedom of movement? the terrorists? do they put occupation "terrorist" on their passport? 

 

You went too far and made my point for me. You answered your own smart alec question with your own smart alec answer.

[M_B]

[njackets]

allowing who less freedom of movement? the terrorists? do they put occupation "terrorist" on their passport?

Of course not, it seems easy enough to blag you're a refugee/asylum seeker if need be, get taken in anywhere in Europe. Become a citizen of that country somewhere down the line and get a EU passport that then would get you in this country.

[Stu Monty]

No, I can't because I haven't researched into the backgrounds of all those involved in terrorist acts on these shores.  There very obviously has been elsewhere though. Paris?

 

What you could do yourself though with about 10 minutes of research is produce a long list of murdered people who are dead thanks to the Schengen Agreement.

 

 

You went too far and made my point for me. You answered your own smart alec question with your own smart alec answer.

 

You really think that is a sensible statement?

 

You could very much make the case that the anti-immigrant, anti-muslim, sentiment that has been fanned by many of the people who are campaigning for the out vote has done far more to endanger people in this country. You know, given that getting countries like the UK to clamp down on their people, and getting the natives to lash out at the immigrants is specifically a strategy of these terror attacks. It is their very purpose. So they can then say "See, the West hates you, join the caliphate!"

 

That's before we get into how stopping the razing of people's towns and cities is probably a simpler, and more effective, way to reduce refugees and immigrants than some vague border controls. 

[Moctezuma]

http://www.andywilliamson.com/10-points-to-consider-about-brexit-and-the-eu-referendum/

 

So here are my simple answers to the questions I keep being asked and to correct the mis-information I keep reading. They’re offered merely in the hope of shining a little light into the darkened cesspool that this debacle will undoubtedly become.

1. We’ll have control over our own laws. No. We won’t, we will still need to harmonise with Europe. The only difference between now and then is that at the moment we get to influence those laws. If we leave we just have to adopt them (See Norway).
2. British courts can make the final decision. More complex this one but, in short, no. They can’t. At least not any more than now. The European Court of Human Rights (the Daily Mule’s biggest enemy) has nothing to do with the EU. The European Court of Justice is the final arbiter of EU law (not national law)… see point 1.
3. We can control our own borders. Er… We already do. You remember that passport thing you have to show the man?
4. We can control immigration. In theory, yes, we could. We could pull up the drawbridge and fill in the tunnel too. But it won’t happen because we lose more than we gain.
5. Staying in makes terrorism more likely. One of the more facile claims, this is so brilliantly stupid that it is almost genius. Staying in the EU makes us a hotbed for terrorism whilst leaving means we’re all safe. There you have it! The only problem is, it’s not true. First of all, see point 4 above. Then consider that terrorists are just like multi-nationals – they don’t respect national borders, they don’t play fair and they don’t care about you.
6. We’ll renegotiate free trade deals to replace the EU. We won’t. Certainly not quickly at least. We’ll trade with the EU as a member of the EEA so we get pretty much the same as now but we lose the power to influence any future changes. Again, see Norway. And the US has already made it clear it has no interest in a FTA with a newly isolated and rapidly sinking UK. But if you believe we can do instant deals why don’t you start with Scotland. As it will undoubtedly leave if the UK leaves the EU. As eventually will Northern Ireland. And then Wales… starting to feel like the ugly kid at the school disco yet?
7. We’ll be strutting our stuff as world power again. Newsflash! The UK is a world power. It has a seat on the UN Security Council. It punches enormously above its weight on the international stage. This is in part because of its connectedness to Europe and its power within the EU. Leave and what are you left with? There is momentum building to review the UNSC membership, what do you think are the odds that an isolated UK will still be there?
8. The economy will thrive if we’re outside the EU. Seriously? It’s not even worth bothering trying to answer this one! The statement is just so blatantly devoid of logic. We’re not Norway. we sold off most of the family silver years ago. And what’s left is rapidly being outsourced and sold off too. And that great shining generator of wealth (for a small few), the financial sector? That will move to Frankfurt, did you ever see a bank with loyalty? (OK, I accept that this could be seen as a plus). In short, if we leave, we get to live through a fire sale at the sunset of a once great economic and political power.
9. The EU is incompetent, badly run and a drain on resources. Yes. It is. It is beyond incompetent in many cases. But we’re stuck with it one way or the other – leaving does not change that. It might be hard to change it but at least it’s possible from the inside (now more than ever). What can we do from outside? It’s also worth pondering that many of the problems with supposed-EU dictates lie in the local implementation (remember, it was the UK’s fault it didn’t impose the moratorium in immigration in 2004, as Germany and others did).
10. What’s it ever done for us anyway? Nothing much. Other than working time directives and other ways that protect your rights at work, protect your children. Then there’s consumer protection and European peace. Not to mention the wholesale transition of Eastern Europe from volatile authoritarian states into thriving democracies. Maybe you don’t care about any of those things. But you should.

[Dave D]

Yes, quite the powerfully intellectual response.

 

I'll take it that's been clarified then.

 

That you could only come to the conclusion people think that if you didn't follow what they were saying or wanted to make it up.

 

Glad that's sorted.

[thechap]

 

http://www.andywilliamson.com/10-points-to-consider-about-brexit-and-the-eu-referendum/

 

So here are my simple answers to the questions I keep being asked and to correct the mis-information I keep reading. They’re offered merely in the hope of shining a little light into the darkened cesspool that this debacle will undoubtedly become.

1. We’ll have control over our own laws. No. We won’t, we will still need to harmonise with Europe. The only difference between now and then is that at the moment we get to influence those laws. If we leave we just have to adopt them (See Norway).
2. British courts can make the final decision. More complex this one but, in short, no. They can’t. At least not any more than now. The European Court of Human Rights (the Daily Mule’s biggest enemy) has nothing to do with the EU. The European Court of Justice is the final arbiter of EU law (not national law)… see point 1.
3. We can control our own borders. Er… We already do. You remember that passport thing you have to show the man?
4. We can control immigration. In theory, yes, we could. We could pull up the drawbridge and fill in the tunnel too. But it won’t happen because we lose more than we gain.
5. Staying in makes terrorism more likely. One of the more facile claims, this is so brilliantly stupid that it is almost genius. Staying in the EU makes us a hotbed for terrorism whilst leaving means we’re all safe. There you have it! The only problem is, it’s not true. First of all, see point 4 above. Then consider that terrorists are just like multi-nationals – they don’t respect national borders, they don’t play fair and they don’t care about you.
6. We’ll renegotiate free trade deals to replace the EU. We won’t. Certainly not quickly at least. We’ll trade with the EU as a member of the EEA so we get pretty much the same as now but we lose the power to influence any future changes. Again, see Norway. And the US has already made it clear it has no interest in a FTA with a newly isolated and rapidly sinking UK. But if you believe we can do instant deals why don’t you start with Scotland. As it will undoubtedly leave if the UK leaves the EU. As eventually will Northern Ireland. And then Wales… starting to feel like the ugly kid at the school disco yet?
7. We’ll be strutting our stuff as world power again. Newsflash! The UK is a world power. It has a seat on the UN Security Council. It punches enormously above its weight on the international stage. This is in part because of its connectedness to Europe and its power within the EU. Leave and what are you left with? There is momentum building to review the UNSC membership, what do you think are the odds that an isolated UK will still be there?
8. The economy will thrive if we’re outside the EU. Seriously? It’s not even worth bothering trying to answer this one! The statement is just so blatantly devoid of logic. We’re not Norway. we sold off most of the family silver years ago. And what’s left is rapidly being outsourced and sold off too. And that great shining generator of wealth (for a small few), the financial sector? That will move to Frankfurt, did you ever see a bank with loyalty? (OK, I accept that this could be seen as a plus). In short, if we leave, we get to live through a fire sale at the sunset of a once great economic and political power.
9. The EU is incompetent, badly run and a drain on resources. Yes. It is. It is beyond incompetent in many cases. But we’re stuck with it one way or the other – leaving does not change that. It might be hard to change it but at least it’s possible from the inside (now more than ever). What can we do from outside? It’s also worth pondering that many of the problems with supposed-EU dictates lie in the local implementation (remember, it was the UK’s fault it didn’t impose the moratorium in immigration in 2004, as Germany and others did).
10. What’s it ever done for us anyway? Nothing much. Other than working time directives and other ways that protect your rights at work, protect your children. Then there’s consumer protection and European peace. Not to mention the wholesale transition of Eastern Europe from volatile authoritarian states into thriving democracies. Maybe you don’t care about any of those things. But you should.

 

 

I haven't clicked on the link so I don't know who you're quoting but I do know there is a ton of disinformation and shit in what they've written.

[thechap]

You really think that is a sensible statement?

 

You could very much make the case that the anti-immigrant, anti-muslim, sentiment that has been fanned by many of the people who are campaigning for the out vote has done far more to endanger people in this country. You know, given that getting countries like the UK to clamp down on their people, and getting the natives to lash out at the immigrants is specifically a strategy of these terror attacks. It is their very purpose. So they can then say "See, the West hates you, join the caliphate!"

 

That's before we get into how stopping the razing of people's towns and cities is probably a simpler, and more effective, way to reduce refugees and immigrants than some vague border controls. 

 

Some fantastic nuanced disinformation here too and quite deliberately done.

 

Which immigrant? Which Muslim? 

 

When you make statements such as this that distort the truth you become a bigger problem than the original issue.

 

Yes, quite the powerfully intellectual response.

 

I'll take it that's been clarified then.

 

That you could only come to the conclusion people think that if you didn't follow what they were saying or wanted to make it up.

 

Glad that's sorted.

 

Mate - look back through this thread at some of your own posts and satisfy yourself that you have the authority to question how intellectual others' responses have been.  I have over the years seen you do this many times.  Mock the validity of someone else's posts and then go on to post something absurd yourself.

 

I think you come across as a patronising bully. Just my opinion.

[stringvest]

I haven't clicked on the link so I don't know who you're quoting but I do know there is a ton of disinformation and shit in what they've written.

 

that sounds like TK giving his opinion on a match he hasn't seen

[thechap]

that sounds like TK giving his opinion on a match he hasn't seen

 

Err... his post contained all of the information. Which I read.

 

What point are you making? 

[Stu Monty]

Some fantastic nuanced disinformation here too and quite deliberately done.

 

Which immigrant? Which Muslim? 

 

When you make statements such as this that distort the truth you become a bigger problem than the original issue.

 

 

Mate - look back through this thread at some of your own posts and satisfy yourself that you have the authority to question how intellectual others' responses have been.  I have over the years seen you do this many times.  Mock the validity of someone else's posts and then go on to post something absurd yourself.

 

I think you come across as a patronising bully. Just my opinion.

 

Yes, I'm happy with my tone. I've been consistently ready to talk issues, honestly. You've dodged and got moody about me apparently being childish, when I've been nothing of the sort. And there again you call my views absurd.

 

It's not patronising to point out to someone inventing posters that think all immigrants are hard working that nobody has said that. It's not patronising to then mock them when the weight of their response is (as per usual) to post stupid pictures and make personal attacks (because their argument has been clearly held up to be false). 

 

The problem here is that you don't want to be "bullied" or "patronised" but then you'll make daft claims like the fact I'm distorting the truth when I post things that aren't even controversial. 

 

What, in what I said, is distorting the truth? Actually quote the bit you think is me distorting the truth. And you can post anything you think is bullying too if you want (the posts with just snide Rik Mayall pictures isn't me by the way, you'll want to finish that post you're doing taking Dave to task for them). 

[Dave D]

Yes, I'm happy with my tone. I've been consistently ready to talk issues, honestly. You've dodged and got moody about me apparently being childish, when I've been nothing of the sort. And there again you call my views absurd.

 

It's not patronising to point out to someone inventing posters that think all immigrants are hard working that nobody has said that. It's not patronising to then mock them when the weight of their response is (as per usual) to post stupid pictures and make personal attacks (because their argument has been clearly held up to be false). 

 

The problem here is that you don't want to be "bullied" or "patronised" but then you'll make daft claims like the fact I'm distorting the truth when I post things that aren't even controversial. 

 

What, in what I said, is distorting the truth? Actually quote the bit you think is me distorting the truth. And you can post anything you think is bullying too if you want (the posts with just snide Rik Mayall pictures isn't me by the way, you'll want to finish that post you're doing taking Dave to task for them). 

Dear oh dear.

 

I dont think Ive ever had any kind of interaction with you yet you put that? "AS PER USUAL" 

 

Clearly held up to be false? By who?  The great Juror and Judge that is Stu? Get off your soap box.

 

Trust me, Im pretty reasonable, but when I happen to engage with some faceless little militant who often opens his post with  "what?" and finishes them with "glad thats sorted" I am guilty, as Im sure in your case are 1000s of others, of laughing at what you say so much that I might inject a bit of humour, but this is generally in response to your agitated patronising and bullying tone you take.   ,  

[Stu Monty]

Dear oh dear.

 

I dont think Ive ever had any kind of interaction with you yet you put that? "AS PER USUAL" 

 

Clearly held up to be false? By who?  The great Juror and Judge that is Stu? Get off your soap box.

 

Trust me, Im pretty reasonable, but when I happen to engage with some faceless little militant who often opens his post with  "what?" and finishes them with "glad thats sorted" I am guilty, as Im sure in your case are 1000s of others, of laughing at what you say so much that I might inject a bit of humour, but this is generally in response to your agitated patronising and bullying tone you take.   ,  

 

Yes, held up by me. 

 

You decided to pretend that "some people" (me) were claiming that all immigrants are hard working. 

 

They weren't. It was false. 

 

So then you give it all the Rik Mayall / militant / bullying nonsense. 

 

Everything else is just misdirection.

[Dave D]

Yes, held up by me. 

 

You decided to pretend that "some people" (me) were claiming that all immigrants are hard working. 

 

They weren't. It was false. 

 

So then you give it all the Rik Mayall / militant / bullying nonsense. 

 

Everything else is just misdirection.

Thats just your paranoia (or deluded sense of grandeur and self importance) young Stuart.