Its hit the fan !! (Atk incident)

[G Richards]

You swim with the sharks you gonna get bitten.

 

I am struggling with the whole concept of the non racist BNP voter. They don't vote BNP because of their progressive tax initiatives or pledges to increase the use of renewable energy. They do it because they don't like foreigners and darkies.

 

I think there is another reason people vote for the BNP, though obviously it does attract the sort you've described there. The other reason is one of genuine concern, even fear, about the fabric of the country changing, and resources - by way of jobs and benefits - being spread too thin due to mass immigration.

 

If the other mainstream political parties had effective policies and ideas on these issues, and if they were able to speak to the issues in a way that connects with the working man who might not read the broad sheets or be blessed with a good educational background, then that would go a long way toward robbing the BNP of oxygen.

 

As it stands I dont think they do, and their ineffectiveness has created fertile ground for the BNP to appeal to certain types.

[RoboRiise]

Is there really a split in the fanbase, just seems like a few dozen people who just can't stand each other who shout very loudly from time to time.

 

If anything the real split in the fanbase is how does the club move forward ie respect the traditions or worship the mighty dollar.

 

 

There's a split in the part of the fanbase that can get national newspaper journalists writing shite and dragging the club's name through the dirt. Again. There are two ways to be heard clearly; have a loud voice or be close to the ear.

[Liquid football]

That email is 90% about ATK, with a footnote about Tomkins.

 

Why bring Tomkins into it? It's not required. The effect would have been just the same without bringing him up.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

I agree with you' date=' and i won't patronise anyone with an "i'm not a racist" statement, but i can see how through some twisted logic people could perhaps form an argument to the contrary.

 

Does a vote equal complete agreement with the party and its leaders? I've heard the view put forward that some are protest votes intended to open a debate on issues such as immigration. You only have to look at the vox pops in the street to see the level of ignorance surrounding politics.

 

We all know what's behind the party, but some sadly don't see it.

 

This ATK issue somehow manages to sum up just about everything that's wrong with the club, the split in the fanbase, the country and its politics in one.[/quote']

 

I dont necessarily want to get into a full-blown political debate but I understand your point. Which I would summarise as "people who vote BNP are either racist, ignorant or absolute morons".

 

If people seriously vote for the BNP or join the EDL out of "protest" then they're pretty stupid. Likewise, if people are voting for a party such as that because they agree with their views on animal shelters but nothing else, they're moronic.

 

The reality is, a vote does equal complete agreement with the party and its leaders.

[Antynwa]

Ayre has said AK and PT have had no input.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

I think there is another reason people vote for the BNP, though obviously it does attract the sort you've described there. The other reason is one of genuine concern, even fear, about the fabric of the country changing, and resources - by way of jobs and benefits - being spread too thin due to mass immigration.

 

If the other mainstream political parties had effective policies and ideas on these issues, and if they were able to speak to the issues in a way that connects with the working man who might not read the broad sheets or be blessed with a good educational background, then that would go a long way toward robbing the BNP of oxygen.

 

As it stands I dont think they do, and their ineffectiveness has created fertile ground for the BNP to appeal to certain types.

 

I agree. They have allowed the BNP to appeal to dickheads.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

Ayre has said AK and PT have had no input.

 

Ian Ayre:

 

"I can tell you categorically that Alan Kayll and Paul Tompkins have had no input on the manager or anything else for that matter. I've seen a lot of that stuff being suggested and it's nonsense."

 

Let this thread go away now. I wont be posting in it again.

[Code]

Tomkins is used in a way to try and cover their arses, to make it look like its not just a vile cowardly attack on Al.

 

Its written by or the info is given by a long time poster on this forum, no doubt about it.

 

Go fuck yourself whoever you are you smalltime coward cunt, nothing like dragging the club through the mud once again as long as it can give you some personal satisfaction are there?

[TheHitman]

Ayre has said AK and PT have had no input.

 

But he didn't rule out Code & Rashid.

[G Richards]

 

The reality is, a vote does equal complete agreement with the party and its leaders.

 

Respectfully I disagree with this part. For example, lots of people voted for New Labour but they were aghast when the reality showed they had a Tory-light veneer. Then as things progressed people were appalled when New Labour took us into an illegal war in Iraq.

 

In my experience people rarely agree entirely with any party. They simply lean slightly more in that direction and vote accordingly.

Edited May 19, 2012 by G Richards

[Babb'sBurstNad]

Is there really a split in the fanbase, just seems like a few dozen people who just can't stand each other who shout very loudly from time to time.

 

If anything the real split in the fanbase is how does the club move forward ie respect the traditions or worship the mighty dollar.

 

Perhaps it just seems like a split because of a vocal minority, but i'd say we're still just coming out of the turbulence of H&G's reign.

 

There seems a general air of paranoia and everyone's unsettled. I'm trying to think of the last issue there seemed to be anything akin to universal agreement on.

 

Rafa vs Kenny, CL vs cups, the HJC shirt issue, recriminations over how the Suarez situation was dealt with, net spend stats etc. Maybe all clubs have that, but i'd dearly love to have a boring debate about formations again.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

If it was Tomkins, Boardman or Heaton on the receiving end, I predict a few people's opinions would be different...

 

In my opinion it would still be wrong.

[Liquid football]

Tomkins is used in a way to try and cover their arses, to make it look like its not just a vile cowardly attack on Al.

 

Possibly, but it's got nothing to do with Benitez (and the managerial position) as someone suggested because it has definitely put pressure on Tomkins now and everyone knows he's a massive fan of Rafa.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

Respectfully I disagree with this part. For example, lots of people voted for New Labour but they were aghast when the reality showed they had a Tory-light veneer. Ten as things progressed people were appalled when New Labour took us into an illegal war in Iraq.

 

In my experience people rarely agree entirely with any party. They simply lean slightly more in that direction and vote accordingly.

 

I didnt want to reply because I dont want this thread to stay alive, as its an embarrassment. But I will. My point is this.

 

When you go to the ballot box, do they let you qualify your vote with 2 sides of A4 outlining your personal opinion?

 

As I said, in reality, if you vote for a political party, you are supporting every one of their opinions or policies. In that sense, you are voting for the one you disagree with less. And however much you agree with BNP's view with immigration (which I personally believe are bollocks too), I will never understand how that will outweigh the lifeblood of racism/xenophobia which extends throughout that party.

 

I think we agree, that not all BNP voters will believe in all of their policies. But I disagree, in that I think they're still idiots for ever considering voting for them.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

 

He said he didn't want Liverpool to sign John Barnes because he was black.

 

And he wasn't alone in the 80's.

 

Ask Howard Gayle how he found it tough to get into the first team because he was black an accused of having a chip on his shoulder.

[piscinin]

Ayre has said AK and PT have had no input.

 

Well Tomkins said otherwise. Said Henry called him to ask about who/how to assess Comolli's progress. Seems Tomkins is more plugged in than Ayre. :drool:

[Liquid football]

Well Tomkins said otherwise. Said Henry called him to ask about who/how to assess Comolli's progress. Seems Tomkins is more plugged in than Ayre. :drool:

 

Pretty sure Ant is talking about input on the managerial position. Tomkins said in that recent thing that got posted up on here that he's had no contact with the owners over the managerial position.

 

 

 

edit. In fact, the impression i got off the Tomkins post was that Henry was mostly contacting him to explain things. I dont see the problem in that.

[piscinin]

Pretty sure Ant is talking about input on the managerial position. Tomkins said in that recent thing that got posted up on here that he's had no contact with the owners over the managerial position.

 

I thought that too but then Ayre's quote said they've had no input on anything else. Further reinforcing that he's out of the loop. Although to be fair how JWH broach it.

 

"Hey Ian I was talking to this guy on Rawk . . ."

[Hand Shandy]

 

In my opinion it would still be wrong.

 

Don't disagree with that at all Skidders.

 

I just think all those shrieking 'poor old Al... What spineless cunt did this' wouldn't be making the same noise if it was Tomkins, Heaton or Boardman on the receiving end.

 

Oh, and this isn't aimed at you Skids, as far as I'm aware Boardman and Heaton still have live accounts on here - realred and Ulysses Evert McGill respectively.

 

I reckon if you trawl their posts, you'll struggle to find too much that is either racist, xenophobic or sectarian...

 

They posted their views and opinions much as the rest of us do. Yes, they could come across a bit sanctimonious and as if they were itk, and yes they were often wrong.

 

Like a lot of other people have been over the years...

 

However, their main sin appeared to be backing Benitez, for which they got roundly abused and harassed by a group of posters and they decided to fuck off.

 

Since then, this frankly pathetic little spat has continued and become more and more bitter as the years pass.

 

In all honesty, it's just a little sad.

[ritchie]

I asked this in the other thread, but why has ATK kicked off on Tomkins on Twitter? Tomkins has said he's never mentioned Kayll to anyone and hasn't spoke to Henry since March (when he never talked about any manager).

 

Bizarre.

[ritchie]

Don't disagree with that at all Skidders.

 

I just think all those shrieking 'poor old Al... What spineless cunt did this' wouldn't be making the same noise if it was Tomkins, Heaton or Boardman on the receiving end.

 

Oh, and this isn't aimed at you Skids, as far as I'm aware Boardman and Heaton still have live accounts on here - realred and Ulysses Evert McGill respectively.

 

I reckon if you trawl their posts, you'll struggle to find too much that is either racist, xenophobic or sectarian...

 

They posted their views and opinions much as the rest of us do. Yes, they could come across a bit sanctimonious and as if they were itk, and yes they were often wrong.

 

Like a lot of other people have been over the years...

 

However, their main sin appeared to be backing Benitez, for which they got roundly abused and harassed by a group of posters and they decided to fuck off.

 

Since then, this frankly pathetic little spat has continued and become more and more bitter as the years pass.

 

In all honesty, it's just a little sad.

 

Yeah, good post.

 

Someone in the last page said that Gillett and Hicks have split the fanbase, but they united the fanbase for the most part, certainly towards the end, because they weren't welcome.

 

What's split the fanbase is the polar opposite views people have of Rafa Benitez. I think the way he was hounded out the club by certain people (and funnily enough the sheer abuse fans like ATK showed towards him) left a nasty taste in the mouth for a lot of fans - and particularly when we ended up with Hodgson as a result of it. This has led to so much anger and even hatred between those who are for and against Benitez. It's this hatred that leads to reds turning on reds and the culture you allude to of people deciding who they'll defend by virtue of what their view on Benitez is. It's ludicrous. And you wouldn't be surprised if someone's sent that email with the thought process of "that's for Rafa, ATK". Knowing this forum i'm surprised Rafa hasn't got the blame for sending the email yet ha ha.

 

Something which seems to be coming back again now we are managerless and all things being equal Rafa would be the obvious choice. But while his supporters get accused of being obsessive his haters are very much as obsessive and it makes it impossible.

[G Richards]

I didnt want to reply because I dont want this thread to stay alive, as its an embarrassment. But I will. My point is this.

 

When you go to the ballot box, do they let you qualify your vote with 2 sides of A4 outlining your personal opinion?

 

As I said, in reality, if you vote for a political party, you are supporting every one of their opinions or policies. In that sense, you are voting for the one you disagree with less. And however much you agree with BNP's view with immigration (which I personally believe are bollocks too), I will never understand how that will outweigh the lifeblood of racism/xenophobia which extends throughout that party.

 

I think we agree, that not all BNP voters will believe in all of their policies. But I disagree, in that I think they're still idiots for ever considering voting for them.

 

I understand what you are saying and that one vote is one vote, whether the voter agrees with some of the policies or all of them. I missed that point originally, my mistake.

[Anny Road]

The crux of this for me is that a few fans, during the H&G, reign tasted a little bit of power. Forming unions, protesting, having their opinions heard. Must have felt good.

Well there is no need for these people now but they cannot just go back to supporting the team.

They want to be heard, be involved. That's why all this bollocks is still going on. Get a grip.

[The Dude Abides]

The crux of this for me is that a few fans, during the H&G, reign tasted a little bit of power. Forming unions, protesting, having their opinions heard. Must have felt good.

Well there is no need for these people now but they cannot just go back to supporting the team.

They want to be heard, be involved. That's why all this bollocks is still going on. Get a grip.

 

Nail on the fucking head.

[TheBitch]

Huang on, is someone saying a person has an agenda against Al.

 

Reporters are all round Anfield as it is.

 

I don't know why people get so Wrapped up about other fans.

 

Nice.