Countdown to Hiroshima 66 Years Ago: Was the Bomb Necessary?

[Pidge]

They didn't drop it on the emperor's home because he was the target audience for the message they were sending. Not the people. The people had no say in the matter. They were at war because the power base of the country said so. Like all wars they were the pawns and the victims, the US just had to kill enough of them and threaten to kill more to make the Emperor and his generals consider their lives worth saving.

 

Why does every attempt to rationalise the act from a moral perspective need to rely on the assignment of a strict collective identity? Do you all actually believe that, for the first time in history, the wartime propagandandistic representation of an enemy country is balanced and valid? Or that it should still stand today as the representation of the country at the time?

 

There were many reasons and factors leading to the bombs being dropped. The changing of Japanese public opinion is, at best, a secondary factor, at worst, an excuse. An excuse dragged through history classes in an attempt to rationalise a truly horrific occurance. It's a shallow reading of what should be taught as the complex issue that it is.

[redforlife]

biggest act of terrorism the world has ever seen

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Why does every attempt to rationalise the act from a moral perspective need to rely on the assignment of a strict collective identity?

 

Yeah, it's all the time with the Japanese/WW2. Fucking annoying.

[Strontium]

We don't judge ourselves on what our enemies might have done. I get the vibe from your posts that they kind of got what was coming to them, is that fair to say?

 

 

Not exactly, because I don't believe in collective punishment. More that I could understand if someone felt that way. I would say Japan is fortunate it was the US that developed the bomb first and not the Chinese.

[King Emlyn]

Nobody knows how the alternative solution would have played out, but one thing is indisputable - the bombs left Japan a broken nation that had nothing left to bargain with. If the yanks had not dropped the bomb, it's a very real possibility that the Russians would have invaded the north island (as they were preparing to do) and the cold war would have developed in Tokyo the way it had in Berlin. What's more, I personally believe a great many of Japan's forces and especially its remaining naval vessels would have continued fighting even if their homeland was defeated by conventional means.

 

In that set of circumstances, IF the allies had the means to bring the war to an end - and they didn't do so, and another British ship was sunk, or another squadron of aircraft were lost, how could that be justified? You're basically weighing the lives of civilians in an enemy country against the lives of your own people, far fewer in number perhaps, but it still comes down to them or you.

100% correct

[neko]

The firebombing of Tokyo makes Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined look like a water balloon fight, yet that outrage doesn't seem to resonate with people - either because they don't have enough knowledge on the subject as a whole, or perhaps it simply lacks the glamour of a nuclear atrocity.

 

It's far too easy with 66 years of time between the event to truly appreciate the context at the time. S31 and San Don are absolutely correct in their assessment of the Japanese - no need to expand on that.

 

You also can't discount the almost universal support by the allies (excluding Russia perhaps) for anything that might shorten the war, and quite honestly gain some measure of revenge on the Japanese. It sounds awful to say it now, but the Japanese as a whole were far from innocent victims.

 

Of course, the political gains are immense, and again probably quite necessary with the growing threat of Soviet Russia.

[neko]

Hmm joint cheifs of staff seemed to disagree with your far removed assessment:

 

Oh and did i mention u r a cunt?

 

Dennis - that's not necessary.

 

Admiral Leahy, in his assessment, also thought the bomb wouldn't actually work.

 

His stance that you quoted, doesn't necessarily make him right. In fact, it would have put him firmly in the minority amongst the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

 

I would also suggest that it is perhaps easier to say "it won't work' and 'it's not the right way of waging war'. I don't think Roosevelt/Truman or any other decision-maker took the decision of dropping a bomb on Japan without some deep reflection and personal responsibility.

[Guest Jon Snow]

Men create Wars, Children pay for them.

[Guest Jon Snow]

Demonstrating the power of a nuclear bomb wasn't just justified, it was pretty much essential. You're all of course completely right that it saved million upon millions of lives.

 

But what wasn't essential or justified in any shape or form was dropping it on a town of innocent men, women and children.

 

They could just as easily have dropped it in a sparsely inhabited area as a demonstration of power and might, with a formal warning that the next one was landing on Tokyo.

It would without doubt have had the exact same outcome; the Japanese surrender a few days later.

 

To just senselessly murder 100,000 innocent and unaware people was just absolutely fucking sick in my opinion. There's no other word for it.

 

This is the most valid point in here, by far. I can understanding wanting to stop a war, but to drop it on children, woman ect is so wrong. If they had dropped it even on one of japans battleships it would have stopped the war no doubt. I understand they did it to stop the weapons being made, but the shock of its power would have ended the war in a heart beat.

 

Also why drop it on japan and not on Germany ? I not saying I would have liked that, but why one and not other that is an interesting question.

[Lee909]

The war in europe had pretty much come to a close by the tome of the bombings in Japan.

While it leaves a bitter taste of you do not understand the Japanese mentality it's hard to understand what was needed for a surrender. The Samurai mentality leaves no room for failure,loss of honour or not doing what the Diamyo/Emperor has commanded.

Sinking a battleship with the bomb would have made no difference to the Japanese.Most Japanese did not believe the survivors of the first bomb.

It will always be a controversial issue and rightly so,but you do have to wonder how many millions would have died without it's use. Also if you looked and the murder and rape the Japanese had infliction on the Korean and Chinese I doubt they would have much sympathy.

I do think though that had the Germans or Japanese used the bomb on still lost the war they would have found themselves on charges of major warcrimes.

 

 

 

 

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche

[Ian Beales Gut]

To decide if it was the right thing to do you first need to understand the Japanese mentality. Death before humiliation or surrender. This applied to quite a few civilians as well. The us had to prove they could destroy the whole of Japan I they wanted before they capitulated. Without the atom bombs the us would have just carpet bombed Japan with b29s to pretty much the same effect. It woul have taken longer and may have caused more deaths as well. Follow this up by a land invasion and the casulaties on both sides would have been immense.

 

So in my opinion it was horrible but necessary. It also cemented Americas position as the only global atomic power, it therefore served as a warning to the ussr about any intentions of spreading further west .

[Guest Jon Snow]

The war in europe had pretty much come to a close by the tome of the bombings in Japan.

While it leaves a bitter taste of you do not understand the Japanese mentality it's hard to understand what was needed for a surrender. The Samurai mentality leaves no room for failure,loss of honour or not doing what the Diamyo/Emperor has commanded.

Sinking a battleship with the bomb would have made no difference to the Japanese.Most Japanese did not believe the survivors of the first bomb.

It will always be a controversial issue and rightly so,but you do have to wonder how many millions would have died without it's use. Also if you looked and the murder and rape the Japanese had infliction on the Korean and Chinese I doubt they would have much sympathy.

I do think though that had the Germans or Japanese used the bomb on still lost the war they would have found themselves on charges of major warcrimes.

 

 

 

 

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche

 

Yeah Lee I agree just playing devils advocate, I mean who are we to preach to the brave men who fought in the war, different time and I am sure at the time they felt like they had no option.

 

I guess you are right about war crimes bit as well, but how many Nazi generals got away with war crimes. Pretty sure it works both ways.

 

I spoken to a few American lads about 20-25 and they was like fuck yeah we killed those jap fuckers ect. Its not fact they bombed japan that upsets me, tho it was horrible, its the lack of respect I have heard come out of young American men's mouths that I find worrying. Tho I am not going to say all American men feel this way as I don't like to stereo type (Also don't know that many).

[Lee909]

Nothing surprises me about America and there views in of the world anymore. At the end of the day it's a stolen land were the original people of the land were ruthlessly killed off by some of the worst crimes known to man. Were blacks were good enough to have in the army but couldn't get rights at home.

[Guest Jon Snow]

Nothing surprises me about America and there views in of the world anymore. At the end of the day it's a stolen land were the original people of the land were ruthlessly killed off by some of the worst crimes known to man. Were blacks were good enough to have in the army but couldn't get rights at home.

 

Yeah America is one of those places I never wanted anything to do with.

 

One per cent of Americans now in jail - Americas, World - The Independent

 

This sickens me, its a key indication that America is far from being a rich nourishing environment to raise children in.

 

Please don't get me started on their attempts to wipe out a whole race.

 

[YOUTUBE]0Peu06M3Wks[/YOUTUBE]

 

If you listen to this 3 mins long, its what I aim to avoid in life and its everything America stands for.

[Lee909]

There are still slot of great things and placed I want to see out there and there are some great aspects about the States but the hung ho, we rule the world crap just grates with me.

[Cliff T. Beast]

It was a perfect opportunity for America to demonstrate it's power to the Russians and to the rest of the world.

 

The first step if you will into what we see today. The Americans thinking they have a god given right to police the world.

 

I've read some accounts of America joining the WWII which suggest that they were well aware that Pearl Harbour was going to happen as an opportunity to get into the war 'through the back door'.

 

Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge conspiracy theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

We can see now from the invasions in Afghan, the WMDs in Iraq, Bin Laden being 'killed' this year. Anything involving the American's in world affairs always has a stink of bullshit about it.

 

I'm not well read enough on the war in Pacific, having concentrated more on Post War USA and Russian politics at A-Level. But I think, based on what I have read, that an alternative solution could have been met

[silverlining]

Is it true that they were drinking there moulton nails because of the intense heat?

 

Jesus fucking Christ, Si.

[silverlining]

I Was asking When th bomb went off. It was apparently so hot that the only liquid sauce was there melting nails apparently people were drinking there nails.

 

Jesus fucking Christ, Si

[silverlining]

This is the most valid point in here, by far. I can understanding wanting to stop a war, but to drop it on children, woman ect is so wrong. If they had dropped it even on one of japans battleships it would have stopped the war no doubt. I understand they did it to stop the weapons being made, but the shock of its power would have ended the war in a heart beat.

 

Also why drop it on japan and not on Germany ? I not saying I would have liked that, but why one and not other that is an interesting question.

 

Dropped a nuclear bomb. On a fucking battleship.

 

Why drop it on Japan. And not on Germany.

 

Did your parents have any kids that lived?

[Sugar Ape]

I reckon you easily talk Simon into doing anything. If any jehovah's witnesses knock on your door don't get it. And definitely don't speak to any hare krishna.

[Guest Jon Snow]

Dropped a nuclear bomb. On a fucking battleship.

 

Why drop it on Japan. And not on Germany.

 

Did your parents have any kids that lived?

 

I meant to show a strong hand. I am sure once Japan seen a few go off they would have surrendered if they was told the next few would hit on one of their cities.

 

As for the on Germany not Japan side of things I made a mistake in the dates so forget that.

[Guest davelfc]

I reckon you easily talk Simon into doing anything. If any jehovah's witnesses knock on your door don't get it. And definitely don't speak to any hare krishna.

 

He's already answered the door to the milkman, it's a slippery road now.

[ChrisM]

I meant to show a strong hand. I am sure once Japan seen a few go off they would have surrendered if they was told the next few would hit on one of their cities.

 

As for the on Germany not Japan side of things I made a mistake in the dates so forget that.

 

Have you heard of Nagasaki?

[zigackly]

He's already answered the door to the milkman, it's a slippery road now.

 

It's a slippery slope, but he loves skiing.

 

Talking of skiing: Horace Goes Skiing | MySpeccy.com

 

I can feel a longish post in me on this subject but it will have to wait for a day when I can spend some time getting my thoughts in order.

[Red Phoenix]

Will never accept that it was necessary, there had to have been several other ways. It would've been sickening to drop one on a military base of hundreds/thousands and those people join up knowing they're putting their lives on the line, but to drop them on two cities like that, could never explain how wrong I think it is.

 

Those bombs alone are absolute proof that there's something seriously wrong with the reality we live in, nothing else from thousands of years of our fucked up history needs to be added, and the fact that countries still have stockpiles of them is proof of our continuing madness and sickness as a species.