Who left the better 1st team Ged or Rafa?

[niallers]

Following on from martin tylers monkey's statement a few weeks back on who left the better squad, i've been thinking objectively bout what he said, if one can ever think objectively bout anything that comes out of his gob so before i start, let me be clear that this is a straight out, honest, non agenda driven question. I am in the pro rafa camp for what its worth but leaving that aside, i find myself struggling to say that only Reina and Torres are the only guaranteed starters that were left by Rafa that were/are substantially better in their respective poitions than what Ged left.

GK Dudek or Reina = Reina

RB Finnan or Johnson = Finnan

CB Carra was left by both

CB Sami or Skrtel/agger = Sami

LB Riise or Aurelio = Riise

RM Dirk or Smicer = level in my mind

CM Gerrard was left by both

CM Didi or Mash = level (or Didi or Lucas = Didi)

LM Kewell or Maxi = level (even tho i think kewell was a lazy fucker, talent wise him and maxi are pretty equal)

CF Torres or Baros = Torres

CF Owen/Cisse or Ngog = Cisse as Rat Boy fucked off

 

This is a question based on my perception of the strongest teams that were normally fielded. Also ,and i must stress this point, is that Rafa definitely built a better squad during his time here with the 08/09 being the pinacle and that years squad and 1st 11 were far better than anything Ged put together. But, the 1st 11 he left is a different matter.

One more thing, yes i am aware the tumors robbed him blind in 4or5 successive transfer windows and that had a serious effect on his last 1st 11.

So ye're opinions please and try not let this descend into anything other than a debate bout football and not draw any politics into it.

[Unrighteous]

Reina

 

Arbeloa

Carragher

Agger/Sami

Aurelio/Riise(i guess)

 

Alonso

Masch

Gerrard

 

Kuyt

Yossi

 

Torres

 

 

Our best first team in a very, very long time.

 

Now? Minus: Arbeloa, Yossi, Mascherano, Alonso, and Sami. (I won't count Riise for the minus, despite him being tall, strong, good aerial defender for a fullback)

 

That's a lot of missing, unreplaced, class.

[Elysian Red]

Alonso, Masch and Benayoun leaving hurt us, that's the current hole in midfield.

[niallers]

I agree that is by far the best but not my question. I asked who LEFT the better 1ST TEAM not who built the better 1st team during their respective times here.

[Carra_is_legend]

I think it will be pretty close. Ged left a few good players, Gerrard in his prime, Carragher in his prime. He also left a lot of dross.

 

Rafa left a lot of dross too but Gerrard and Carragher are not so good as they were in 2004 (6 years takes a toll after all !).

[Il Fenomeno]

You can't really compare them, as Houllier had the benefit of talent coming through the academy to make his team, Rafa didn't as Houllier destroyed the academy.

 

When you compare their best signings, Rafa's team would destroy Houllier's.

[VladimirIlyich]

Ged,simple answer.

I liked both Ged and Rafa and have no axe to grind against either of them.

[Block109'er]

If we were able to compare those teams and in some parallel Universe pit them against each other I believe that the team that Houllier left behind would have beaten the Team that Rafa left at the end of last season.

 

Just IMO.

 

Finnan, Sami and Riise (although like Johnson he wasn't the best defender I've ever seen and made up for his failings going forward) would all get into this current first XI

 

Didi would get in obviously and I agree with you that Cissi would and probably even Baros ahead of Jova or Ngog.

[King Emlyn]

Rafas best side was better than Geds but Ged left a better side.

[ReDeus]

Houllier of course. Rafa was able to take Houllier's team and with a few additions, turn them into European champions. The team/squad Rafa has left us with is relegation material.

[Kennys_spell]

Following on from martin tylers monkey's statement a few weeks back on who left the better squad, i've been thinking objectively bout what he said, if one can ever think objectively bout anything that comes out of his gob so before i start, let me be clear that this is a straight out, honest, non agenda driven question. I am in the pro rafa camp for what its worth but leaving that aside, i find myself struggling to say that only Reina and Torres are the only guaranteed starters that were left by Rafa that were/are substantially better in their respective poitions than what Ged left.

GK Dudek or Reina = Reina

RB Finnan or Johnson = Finnan

CB Carra was left by both

CB Sami or Skrtel/agger = Sami

LB Riise or Aurelio = Riise

RM Dirk or Smicer = level in my mind

CM Gerrard was left by both

CM Didi or Mash = level (or Didi or Lucas = Didi)

LM Kewell or Maxi = level (even tho i think kewell was a lazy fucker, talent wise him and maxi are pretty equal)

CF Torres or Baros = Torres

CF Owen/Cisse or Ngog = Cisse as Rat Boy fucked off

 

This is a question based on my perception of the strongest teams that were normally fielded. Also ,and i must stress this point, is that Rafa definitely built a better squad during his time here with the 08/09 being the pinacle and that years squad and 1st 11 were far better than anything Ged put together. But, the 1st 11 he left is a different matter.

One more thing, yes i am aware the tumors robbed him blind in 4or5 successive transfer windows and that had a serious effect on his last 1st 11.

So ye're opinions please and try not let this descend into anything other than a debate bout football and not draw any politics into it.

 

I don't normally take part in these as it's a little too simplistic. For instance comparing the Skrtel that Benitez left with the Skrtel that Hodgson left is like comparing chalk and cheese.

 

The same can be said for a number of other players that have had their confidence and will drained by Hodgson (LMA Manager of the year 2010).

[niallers]

I don't normally take part in these as it's a little too simplistic. For instance comparing the Skrtel that Benitez left with the Skrtel that Hodgson left is like comparing chalk and cheese.

 

The same can be said for a number of other players that have had their confidence and will drained by Hodgson (LMA Manager of the year 2010).

 

this is very true

[pikas]

You can't really compare them, as Houllier had the benefit of talent coming through the academy to make his team, Rafa didn't as Houllier destroyed the academy.

 

 

We won the reserve league in 07/08 and the youth FA cup in 06 and 07.

 

Did Rafa make any real attempt to integrate academy players into the 1st team?

No, he'd give them a start and then bomb them out as soon as possible. Look at the amount of chances and time Ngog and Insua got compared to actual players from the youth system.

 

Guthrie looks crap for Newcastle now but back when we signed Lucas he'd already played a whole season for Bolton in the league and europe but was got rid of to make room for Lucas who's been pants up until this year. Had we put the same time and coaching into Guthrie i'm sure we'd be now getting the same world class performances we now get from Lucas at about £8m-£10m of the price.

 

Rafa had some great moments at Liverpool but the failure of the academy was down to him playing politics.

[Il Fenomeno]

We won the reserve league in 07/08 and the youth FA cup in 06 and 07.

 

Did Rafa make any real attempt to integrate academy players into the 1st team?

No, he'd give them a start and then bomb them out as soon as possible. Look at the amount of chances and time Ngog and Insua got compared to actual players from the youth system.

 

Guthrie looks crap for Newcastle now but back when we signed Lucas he'd already played a whole season for Bolton in the league and europe but was got rid of to make room for Lucas who's been pants up until this year. Had we put the same time and coaching into Guthrie i'm sure we'd be now getting the same world class performances we now get from Lucas at about £8m-£10m of the price.

 

Rafa had some great moments at Liverpool but the failure of the academy was down to him playing politics.

 

Winning cups and leagues at Youth level means nothing, it's all about individuals at that level, something the coaching staff Houllier installed didn't understand.

 

Lucas is ten times the player Guthrie is, fact. Guthrie can't even get ahead of Kevin Nolan and Joey Barton into the Newcastle team.

 

Rafa gave players like Mellor & Warnock chances, they proved they weren't good enough for anything other than poor midtable teams so he got rid.

 

The failure of the academy was down to how poor the standard of coaching there was, it was nothing to do with Rafa playing politics, just look at the people from the 2007 youth cup winning team.

 

Roberts; Darby, Spearing, Threlfall, Burns; Ryan (Woodward), Ajdarevic (Irwin), Barnett, Putterill; Flynn, Lindfield:

 

They've done so well for themselves, I can't believe Rafa didn't give them a chance here instead, it would've been just great having Lindfield as back up to Torres instead of Ngog.

[Section_31]

It's a hard one really, I think Rafa left more top players than Houllier did, but crucially, a better overall squad was left to Rafa. He had players like Baros and Smicer to call on, players who might not always make the first XI but who could do a job - Rafa's squad had a core of top players but after that the quality just fell off a cliff. It was like that under his entire reign really, we've never had any real strength in depth under Rafa.

[ReDeus]

Winning cups and leagues at Youth level means nothing, it's all about individuals at that level, something the coaching staff Houllier installed didn't understand.

 

Lucas is ten times the player Guthrie is, fact. Guthrie can't even get ahead of Kevin Nolan and Joey Barton into the Newcastle team.

 

Rafa gave players like Mellor & Warnock chances, they proved they weren't good enough for anything other than poor midtable teams so he got rid.

 

The failure of the academy was down to how poor the standard of coaching there was, it was nothing to do with Rafa playing politics, just look at the people from the 2007 youth cup winning team.

 

Roberts; Darby, Spearing, Threlfall, Burns; Ryan (Woodward), Ajdarevic (Irwin), Barnett, Putterill; Flynn, Lindfield:

 

They've done so well for themselves, I can't believe Rafa didn't give them a chance here instead, it would've been just great having Lindfield as back up to Torres instead of Ngog.

Lucas wouldn't get ahead of those two either.

[pikas]

Rafa gave players like Mellor & Warnock chances, they proved they weren't good enough for anything other than poor midtable teams so he got rid.

 

 

Much better to get rid of Mellor and Warnock and bring in class like Voronin and Dossena, and if you're telling me that we didnt have one player in the 6 years of Rafa's reign as good as Philip fucking Degen then I'll know you're taking the piss.

 

I dont blame Rafa for not producing any players as good as Carra, Gerrard, Owen or Macca but he could of produced more fringe players from the ranks. Look at Taggert he gives a few youth players a few games every year and maybe a loan spell and after 3/4 seasons they're either good enough as back up or sold for millions.

[Dicko]

Much better to get rid of Mellor and Warnock and bring in class like Voronin and Dossena, and if you're telling me that we didnt have one player in the 6 years of Rafa's reign as good as Philip fucking Degen then I'll know you're taking the piss.

 

I dont blame Rafa for not producing any players as good as Carra, Gerrard, Owen or Macca but he could of produced more fringe players from the ranks. Look at Taggert he gives a few youth players a few games every year and maybe a loan spell and after 3/4 seasons they're either good enough as back up or sold for millions.

When Rafa did what you're suggesting he was belittled by his own supporters. He couldn't win.

[Guest PurpleNose]

Rafa.

[Il Fenomeno]

Much better to get rid of Mellor and Warnock and bring in class like Voronin and Dossena, and if you're telling me that we didnt have one player in the 6 years of Rafa's reign as good as Philip fucking Degen then I'll know you're taking the piss.

 

I dont blame Rafa for not producing any players as good as Carra, Gerrard, Owen or Macca but he could of produced more fringe players from the ranks. Look at Taggert he gives a few youth players a few games every year and maybe a loan spell and after 3/4 seasons they're either good enough as back up or sold for millions.

 

Voronin was miles better than Mellor, but he wasn't good enough either.

 

And no, there really was no one as good as Degen in the youth team. Darby was the best right back there, and he's pretty awful. Had Kelly been a bit older, then he probably would've been ahead of Degen in the team at the time, if we had quality coming through, then Rafa would give them some minutes, but we had nothing of any quality coming through.

 

Tell me how many Right backs we could've used in the last 6 years that are better than Degen from the youth team, except for Kelly who was too young at the time?

 

Unfortunately, you can't polish a turd, which is what the problem was with the youths under Rafa.

[diamondjoe]

My head hurts with all this.

[Durango]

I think it will be pretty close. Ged left a few good players, Gerrard in his prime, Carragher in his prime. He also left a lot of dross.

 

Rafa left a lot of dross too but Gerrard and Carragher are not so good as they were in 2004 (6 years takes a toll after all !).

 

Of the 5 best players that Houllier managed,

 

Fowler

Owen

Gerrard

Carragher

only Hyypia was signed by Houllier

[pikas]

Voronin was miles better than Mellor, but he wasn't good enough either.

 

 

 

Voronin 39 games played for Liverpool 7 goals scored while Mellor played 22 games and scored 6 goals. Stats are often bullshit but there is no way that Voronin was miles better for Liverpool than Mellor was.

 

Again you're missing the point about naming players from the youth who are better then Degen. If they're not given time to develop of course they're going to be shit. If you spend the ages of 17-22 twiddling your thumb in the reserves with no progress of course you're going to be shit.

 

Rafa did some great things for the club, but his treatment of the academy was just as bad as Houlliers and pretending that in 6 years and a 100+ players later that not one of them was good enough to make our squad is a copout.

 

Look at Insua and Ngog, both fairly and consistently useless when they joined but Rafa showed faith and gave them games and 1st team coaching until they eventually improved. If both players had been left to rot in the reserves they'd be at the same level as when we signed them.

[pikas]

Of the 5 best players that Houllier managed,

 

Fowler

Owen

Gerrard

Carragher

only Hyypia was signed by Houllier

 

I love Carra but Didi was a far better player in Houlliers years than Carra was.

[Code]

Rafas best side was better than Geds but Ged left a better side.

 

Agree.

 

The best team and squad we have had the last 10 years was our 05/06 squad.

 

A mixture of the best players left behind by GH, whole defense among other things, and Rafa`s buys who before he went mad and completely lost were actually quite good.

 

GH left a far superior team and sqaud than Rafa though.