Pep Guardiola I salute you

[Whelan]

Made a minor change. ;)

 

haha,

 

I take it I am a Rafa 'worshipper', however I have never asked for hard work to be put before skills, my arguement is this, work as hard as Gerrard and Torres and you will be fine!

 

Thought this was quite interesting in the Times, don't always agree with Patrick Barklay, but thought this was good. Sort of echoes what you say about keeping the ball though.

 

"Sir Alex Ferguson did enjoy one win on Wednesday. A horse of which he owns a large chunk prevailed by a neck at Lingfield Park. Which can only have enhanced his optimism about that night, for the beast was called Last Three Minutes, after the period in which Manchester United thrillingly transformed the Champions League final of 1999.

 

For much of this year’s final, it seemed that events might take a similar course. United conceded an early goal to Barcelona, as they had to Bayern Munich, and again might have been further breached. With 20 minutes left, however, the script took a radical diversion as Lionel Messi seized the European title. Torn to shreds was all that talk about equalling the four wins of Ajax and Bayern and moving closer to Liverpool’s five European Cup victories.

 

Were you watching, Merseyside? You bet. So the question on the excited lips of United fans dancing for the cameras outside the Colosseum on match-day morning comes back to haunt them. And, for that matter, Ferguson, who arrived at Old Trafford in 1986 and gave himself the task of putting United in the place of Liverpool, then the most consistently successful institution in the history of the English game.

 

In pulling it off, he has set an exacting standard. Here he is, champion of England for the third consecutive season, and people are wondering if his power has waned because his team, through one admittedly dismal performance, have lost the European crown.

 

There may be worse to come. If Liverpool maintain this season’s improvement under Rafael Benítez, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that they will regain the undisputed record of English championships. United drew level with them on 18 this season. The past two Premier League campaigns have been about Cristiano Ronaldo and Wayne Rooney. Should the next be about Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard, Liverpool will be not only back on their “****ing perch”, but chirping unbearably.

 

In which case Ferguson and United will feel about as happy as those poleaxed Bayern players of Ottmar Hitzfeld’s after Teddy Sheringham and Ole Gunnar Solskjaer had done their damage at the Nou Camp a decade ago.

 

It is, of course, all mere speculation. But so, we now appreciate, were the notions that United would be too strong for Barcelona and Ferguson, at 67, too clever for the 38-year-old Pep Guardiola. United, having given an early goal away, became scared to play. When Edwin van der Sar had the ball, he saw nothing but backs. Even Rooney looked reluctant to demand it, as if concerned he would look less comfortable on it than Xavi Hernández and Andrés Iniesta.

 

Guardiola, who had burnt much midnight oil before leaving Catalonia, stifled Patrice Evra, believing Barcelona were safe when possession was with any other member of the United back four. He reacted to the threat of Ronaldo by sending Sergio Busquets deep. He got everything right and his players’ technique did the rest.

 

Nobody on the United side emerged with much credit. Certainly not Ferguson as his team were utterly outmanoeuvred. Tactically they were a mess. So how will he and his men react? We have 35 years of managerial experience to suggest that business will resume as usual next season, whether or not Ronaldo goes to Real Madrid. The squad is young and, given the development of Danny Welbeck, Darron Gibson and others, and the expected return from injury of Owen Hargreaves, Ferguson should be spoilt for choice.

 

But there are three clouds on the horizon. One is Liverpool. Another is the nature of the club’s ownership by the Glazer family, which means money that could otherwise be spent in the transfer market on the class Barcelona flourished this week must service the Americans’ debts. And the third is that even Ferguson cannot be regarded as an infinite resource.

 

The handover must be smooth and gradual if United are to avoid the problems of other clubs (and indeed themselves, after Sir Matt Busby) when outstanding long-term managers step down. The sooner he starts grooming his successor, the better. Then Ferguson can stay for many years as director of football. It is United’s best chance of keeping in touch with (a) their traditions and (b) the likes of Barcelona."

[hamstrung]

Made a minor change. ;)

 

 

 

Its still a fairly stupid criticism.

[SpeedyG]

Guardiola has proved with Barca this season what Rafa and his whorshippers dont think is possible.

 

You dont need donkeys in attack to make them work hard, hard word does not necessarily come on the expense of skill and ability.

 

Hopefully Rafa will take notice of this, now that it has been proved by someone with the guts to actually go for it and try it out.

 

Like Guardiola said, to win you need to try and win and to achieve something there should be room for failures in the process as long as you try to win.

 

hahahaha Your rafaphobic tendencies are getting the better of you.

 

Hard work is a pre-requisite to play for us, that's all. I didn't see Benitez passing up the opportunity to replace Crouch with Torres. You know the highly mobile Crouch that would run up to 18KM a game.

[Code]

Its still a fairly stupid criticism.

 

I dont think it is really, I have always wondered where this notion comes from that a skillful footballer wont and cant work as hard as anyone else.

 

If he does not then thats down to his managers failure to make him do his job.

 

So is Rafa afraid of something or what is it, his attacking signings in his time here have almost all bar a selected few been utter failures.

 

What if he had been a bit more visionary and even tried out someone who could do five keep uppies withouth the ball hitting the ground, that would have been ace.

[SpeedyG]

I dont think it is really, I have always wondered where this notion comes from that a skillful footballer wont and cant work as hard as anyone else.

 

If he does not then thats down to his managers failure to make him do his job.

 

So is Rafa afaraid of something or what is it, his attacking signings in his time here have almost all bar a selected few been utter failures.

 

It comes from you. Where has Benitez said what you are claiming to be his position?

[hamstrung]

I dont think it is really, I have always wondered where this notion comes from that a skillful footballer wont and cant work as hard as anyone else.

 

If he does not then thats down to his managers failure to make him do his job.

 

So is Rafa afaraid of something or what is it, his attacking signings in his time here have almost all bar a selected few been utter failures.

 

I don't think Rafa (or anyone on here) has any notion that "a skilful footballer won't and can't work as hard as anyone else".

 

Certain "skilful footballers" (including the one advocated most forcefully by Rashid and yourself. You know the one I mean. He's failed at 3 big clubs. Name starts with a Q) don't.

[Code]

I don't think Rafa (or anyone on here) has any notion that "a skilful footballer won't and can't work as hard as anyone else".

 

Certain "skilful footballers" (including the one advocated most forcefully by Rashid and yourself) don't.

 

World class attacking players aren't exactly ten a penny.

 

But would that not be a challenge for any manager out there, Jesualdo Ferreira made Quarasma work just as hard as Kuyt when he was playing at Porto.

 

We are trying to play like Barca, but we dont have good enough players to do it, you have to ask why that is?

 

I think it is because Rafa dont have enough faith in players with the ability to keep posession when it comes to idf they would follow his instructions and work hard enough.

 

The problem though is that its no use to win back the ball for only second later misplace a pass or lose posession again because you chose to pick a workhorse instead of a stallion.

[hamstrung]

I think that if you really believe that Rafa doesn't want hard working & skilful footballers then there isn't a lot of point having a discussion.

[Code]

I think that if you really believe that Rafa doesn't want hard working & skilful footballers then there isn't a lot of point having a discussion.

 

I`m not saying he do not want hem, I`m saying it seems he wont risk taking the chance on them in case hey wont work hard enough.

 

But thats his job is it not, to make them do exactly that?

[hamstrung]

I am not sure how to respond to that sensibly.

 

If the player has the right mentality and skill he'll succeed. Eg Torres

 

If the player has the skill but not the mentality, he won't. Eg Quaresma.

 

I am completely advocate Rafa not buying players like Quaresma, even if it means we have to wait a year or two to find a player like Torres.

[Sniggleton]

It's obviously very hard to be both hard-working (on the pitch) and skillful...there's a tradeoff of pure physics, the faster you're moving the harder it is to stay in control. And the only variable in this trade-off is individual talent.

 

Ronaldo can control himself at full gait. Torres. Arshavin. But they're the exception. And so having a limited supply of exceptional talents, a manager has to question which qualities he prefers to focus on...a less industrious, more skillful side, or a team that plays at full bore at the expense of control/technique.

 

Given your current crop, I think your squad's in two minds. You've got real skill players like Benayoun & Riera, and then you've got workhorses like Kuyt and Dossena. I know the arguments for balance, but sometimes all balance does is keep you from being good enough in any one area to fully succeed.

 

But with Benitez chasing both Barry (industry) & Silva (technique), it seems he disagrees with me about the questionable choice of striving too hard for balance.

[Sniggleton]

I am completely advocate Rafa not buying players like Quaresma, even if it means we have to wait a year or two to find a player like Torres.

 

 

Quaresma is Nani...a perfect fit for a slow league, an 85' minute sub in the Prem.

[hamstrung]

I am not sure hard working is the right description, because (on here anyway) its somehow become a derogatory thing associated with Kuyt.

 

Fanny/Not a fanny might be better.

[ToxtethTerror]

Good post Sniggleton. I think we have a near whole team of workers with sprinkles of skill - what we need is more skill and creativity to achieve that "BALANCE". As Code says, its time to trust a few mavericks.

[hamstrung]

Mavericks are fine provided they are not fannys

 

Name some mavericks and I will happily group them into fanny/non fanny.

[Sniggleton]

I am not sure hard working is the right description, because (on here anyway) its somehow become a derogatory thing associated with Kuyt.

 

Fanny/Not a fanny might be better.

 

 

I actually think Kuyt has a fair bit more skill than he's credited with, and usually because he works so hard (and also because he's a bit goal-shy from what he was brought in for). He's like Tevez in this way.

 

I know it's popular to compare him to our Park, but...sorry, Kuyt's leagues ahead of Park in skill. I'd trade them in a nanosecond.

[hamstrung]

Top Gun is as far away from fanny as you can be

[Sniggleton]

Top Gun is as far away from fanny as you can be

 

you clearly missed out on:

 

 

(couldn't figure out how to embed the vid...?)

[CaptainK]

Guardiola has proved with Barca this season what Rafa and his whorshippers dont think is possible.

 

You dont need donkeys in attack to make them work hard, hard word does not necessarily come on the expense of skill and ability.

 

Hopefully Rafa will take notice of this, now that it has been proved by someone with the guts to actually go for it and try it out.

 

Like Guardiola said, to win you need to try and win and to achieve something there should be room for failures in the process as long as you try to win.

 

I think you're doing the manager a disservice. Our problem is always one of finance. We've tried signing skillful players on the cheap. They've either showed why they were cheap, or the selling club laughed at the money we were offering.

 

Rafa took a risk with Garcia and he was no donkey. Replaced him with Benayoun, again no donkey. Same with Reira. You'd hardly class Alonso (playing further up the pitch) or Torres as donkies. Fabio is a good attacking fullback, as is Arbeloa.

 

Kuyt on the other hand..... :whistle: That said, I love the bloke for his hard work and important goals. Talent is often substituted with hard work and it can pay off.

 

Rafa tried to sign Quaresma and when told that he'd have to defend, he decided that he wasn't interested - said so in an interview I read. Donkey?

 

Tried to sign attacking fullback Dani Alves - no money, no donkey either.

 

Tried to sign winger Simao - no money, no donkey either.

 

Seriously, this is the first time we're looking at tweaking our squad rather than making significant changes. The money doesn't have to stretch as far this time, if reports are to be believed.

 

Apart from Kuyt, maybe the only other donkey in our squad is Babel - certainly in terms of footballing brain.

 

Other donkeys like Josemi and Krompkamp he's got shut of, as soon as he was able.

[Paul]

 

But with Benitez chasing both Barry (industry) & Silva (technique), it seems he disagrees with me about the questionable choice of striving too hard for balance.

Either that or he doesn't have the funds to throw his hat solely into the ring marked "World class". This isn't an attempt to make excuses about money, by the way; I remain sceptical about Rafa's transfer record - and especially with regard to forwards (one utterly devastating signing notwithstanding). However, Fergie could go out and splash £50m on two players this season, having won the league, the league cup, the world thing and having got to the final of the European Cup. When financial restrictions are less draconian it's easier to draw conclusions about a manager's preferences.

[CaptainK]

One thing to remember with this donkey, skillful player discussion is not only the balance that people have mentioned, but the type of football he's trying to get us to play.

 

It's obvious from the last three months that things have clicked and the brand of football is working; that is posession/pressing football. He appears to be following the blueprint of Arrigo Saachi's Milan, but modifying it to suit the Premier League. He's certainly known to have studied Saachi's methods and brand of football.

 

We're still a step short of Barca in that we aren't able to retain the ball as well, but if we do lose it, we want it back straightaway. Unlike the Mancs, who didn't have the bottle to to challenge Barca's domination of the ball. Compare that to what we did in Istanbul when 3-0 down. This season we've been 2 goals down and come back to win, e.g. Man City.

 

You don't do this without both hard work and a fair bit of skill in your team.

 

I saw elsewhere, discussions saying we shouldn't try and sign Eto'o because he wouldn't be happy out wide and doing a defensive shift - look at him on Wednesday night - did both. That's the kind of player we need; not some fancy dan fanny like Quaresma.

 

[Edit]

 

I should add that the compact type of system we employ requires the type of players Barca have; being able to thread passes through packed defences. Seeing spaces that others others haven't, etc. David Silva would do for starters.

 

Since we press fairly high up the pitch, pace is only really going to be useful if/when we play on the counter. That' not something we would be doing very often if we can improve the posession side of our game.

Edited May 29, 2009 by CaptainK

[Sniggleton]

Do you think Rafa will stick with the flair play though, once things are set back to zero in August? Note that you didn't start playing with panache until we'd separated a bit from you, but not so far that you didn't reasonably have a shot at winning the title if you went out aggressively. That 4-1 return at our place just started the ball rolling.

 

Still, Benitez has now been at the helm for 5 years, and it's only been in the last three months in that entire time that you've really expressed yoursleves with "joga bonito". My guess is that he'll pull back to the old, cautious approach in August...not fully cattenacio, but definitely not the stuff of flair teams.

[ToxtethTerror]

Do you think Rafa will stick with the flair play though, once things are set back to zero in August? Note that you didn't start playing with panache until we'd separated a bit from you, but not so far that you didn't reasonably have a shot at winning the title if you went out aggressively. That 4-1 return at our place just started the ball rolling.

 

Still, Benitez has now been at the helm for 5 years, and it's only been in the last three months in that entire time that you've really expressed yoursleves with "joga bonito". My guess is that he'll pull back to the old, cautious approach in August...not fully cattenacio, but definitely not the stuff of flair teams.

 

That's fair to say in all honesty but the fans will be restless if that happens and he knows it. He also knows that if we don't hit the ground running in August then we could be out of it early given that United don't have Super Cup and WCC side shows.

 

Rafa needs to keep up the attacking football and kick on from here, if he doesn't then he will be under pressure massively next term especially as he has total control of the football side.

[Thants]

We'll be cautious as usual keeping it tight making sure we get the 3 points. We lost it with arsenal last season, going at it. And we'll be a better team for it.

Our conversion to camakazi football was like the last few rounds in rocky 2 where little Sami screamed SWITCH and we started punching with the other arm. Alas of wasn't enough due to the dip in form. Hopefully the dip will be shorter next season.

[CaptainK]

Do you think Rafa will stick with the flair play though, once things are set back to zero in August? Note that you didn't start playing with panache until we'd separated a bit from you, but not so far that you didn't reasonably have a shot at winning the title if you went out aggressively. That 4-1 return at our place just started the ball rolling.

 

Still, Benitez has now been at the helm for 5 years, and it's only been in the last three months in that entire time that you've really expressed yoursleves with "joga bonito". My guess is that he'll pull back to the old, cautious approach in August...not fully cattenacio, but definitely not the stuff of flair teams.

 

I understand what you're saying, but you're forgetting the Robbie Keane factor.

 

For whatever reason, Rafa didn't fancy him and tbh, a lot of people were pissed off with is moaning and wagging finger.

 

It's hard to say what we would have been like if we'd had a top attacker signed last summer instead of Robbie Keane.

 

Still can't believe we paid close to £20m.

 

I thought he was worth £10m-£12m tops. And that was before we signed him. After... well it looks like we robbed Spurs when he went back to London.