No More Page 3

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

I cant help but notice you've not pointed out any ignorance I may have had re the specific issue.

 

Can you notice where I said I won't be discussing it any more with you? Have a wee read again, ta.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Again, I've been speaking about a specific issue, nameably the RF and trans clashing over feminist space. Positions and authority on sexual health issues etc have been taken from women, by trans people, who is doesn't affect because they don't have the equiptment, for instance.

Again, from the reading that I have done, an awful lot of the trans voices in this regard, are from Grant Mitchell in tights types: Men who want to fuck women as women and be in female spaces as a sexual kick. At no point have I talked about transgender people as a whole. I am well aware that it has layers to it, but perhaps people would like to see that some of these layers are militant perverts who resent feminists their apparently decreasing exclusivity.

I'd say that I'd like to see some evidence on this, be be a use I can't see many perverse drag queens trying to be feminists. Whilst I guess they're technically classed as transgender, they're not really the people being spoken about.

 

Do these same group of women dislike transsexuals having a say? EDIT: looks like yes. I find their stance distasteful, these terfs.

[The Flâneur]

They dislike trans men taking female space. I would rather have though born female voices have priority over trans men it comes to biological issues, wouldn't you? But yes, there are some RF's who dont want trans people near feminism because they regard them as biological men, and men are rapists and murderers etc they also apparently have a wealth of trans to female violence evidence, but it seems rather anecdotal.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

They dislike trans men taking female space. I would rather have though born female voices have priority over trans men it comes to biological issues, wouldn't you?

Not necessarily, no. But is it just biological issues? From what I'm reading about TERFs, it seems not. Don't get me wrong, I can understand the objection to it. My issue is this problem of perverse drag queens and crossdressers, which is what you describe more than other types of transgender, wanting a voice on female biological issues. If it's anything other than a minute problem, I've not heard of it. So I'd need to actually see what you mean before making judgement. If there's an issue of blokes wearing a dress and trying to dictate female biological issues, I'd certainly adjust my view closer to yours.

 

But yes, there are some RF's who dont want trans people near feminism because they regard them as biological men, and men are rapists and murderers etc they also apparently have a wealth of trans to female violence evidence, but it seems rather anecdotal.

Yeah, I'm not a massive fan of radical feminism, to be honest. That said, it's their right. My right is to curl my lip and close one eye a little bit, whilst moving my head backward.

[The Flâneur]

Not necessarily, no. But is it just biological issues? From what I'm reading about TERFs, it seems not. Don't get me wrong, I can understand the objection to it. My issue is this problem of perverse drag queens and crossdressers, which is what you describe more than other types of transgender, wanting a voice on female biological issues. If it's anything other than a minute problem, I've not heard of it. So I'd need to actually see what you mean before making judgement. If there's an issue of blokes wearing a dress and trying to dictate female biological issues, I'd certainly adjust my view closer to yours.Yeah, I'm not a massive fan of radical feminism, to be honest. That said, it's their right. My right is to curl my lip and close one eye a little bit, whilst moving my head backward.

I'm afraid I'm currently not in a position to provide empirical evidence of trans sartorial habits at present. The entire issue is nuanced beyond my biological knowledge, especially when it comes to intersex people. My posts haven't been about describing the entirety of trans people, I'm not sure how that would be possible. However, there is clearly a phallo-centric view, also evident on here, that all a person need do to have access to female spaces, female forums, female issues is to 'identify' as female. I can understand some.feminists view that this is an attack, or at least patronising and derogatory.

Should Kelly Malone be sitting on female committees for instance? In one of the links I posted, there's a sign from Bristol Uni re.trans people in toilets. Its a.good microcosm of some of the arguments. I think I know where I stand on some of it, but but as I say, its pretty complicated.

[VladimirIlyich]

These women just need a good shag.*

 

*Said in the voice of your typical UKIP voter.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I'm afraid I'm currently not in a position to provide empirical evidence of trans sartorial habits at present. The entire issue is nuanced beyond my biological knowledge, especially when it comes to intersex people. My posts haven't been about describing the entirety of trans people, I'm not sure how that would be possible. However, there is clearly a phallo-centric view, also evident on here, that all a person need do to have access to female spaces, female forums, female issues is to 'identify' as female. I can understand some.feminists view that this is an attack, or at least patronising and derogatory.

Should Kelly Malone be sitting on female committees for instance? In one of the links I posted, there's a sign from Bristol Uni re.trans people in toilets. Its a.good microcosm of some of the arguments. I think I know where I stand on some of it, but but as I say, its pretty complicated.

No reason why not.  Kelly Malone is a woman.

 

As for the bog sign in Bristol, that some ignorant twunt's blog offered as evidence of pantomime dames invading "wimmin space", it's nothing of the sort.  The truth is that if you go for gender realignment, you have to spend a year living as a woman before you go for surgery.  And living as a woman includes the name you use, the way you dress and the bogs you use.  (Presumably not pissing in the sink like Eddie Hitler, saying "Blimey, these urinals are high.  No wonder us birds wear heels.")

[The Flâneur]

No reason why not.  Kelly Malone is a woman.

 

As for the bog sign in Bristol, that some ignorant twunt's blog offered as evidence of pantomime dames invading "wimmin space", it's nothing of the sort.  The truth is that if you go for gender realignment, you have to spend a year living as a woman before you go for surgery.  And living as a woman includes the name you use, the way you dress and the bogs you use.  (Presumably not pissing in the sink like Eddie Hitler, saying "Blimey, these urinals are high.  No wonder us birds wear heels.")

There are a lot of reasons why not, I can't be bothered to go over them again. Calling Kelly Malone a woman is just your opinion, it's not an immutable fact. Reducing female sex to only being what clothes you wear, your name etc is misogynist. Ignoring women's fears, distress, anger and alarm at the entire subject, which isn't minute, is misogynist. Men telling women how they should feel about it, and what they should accept, is misogynist. Telling a woman that a man can have the same insight or experiences as a woman is misogynist. Telling women what they are losing or not losing out of the whole deal, guess what, misogynist.

I didn't offer that blog as 'evidence of pantomime dames invading "wimmin space"', I offered it as an interesting example of the two sides' issues. That you would react in such a way says more about how you view women and feminism than anything else.

[The Flâneur]

Here's another blog on the subject that is in no way getting old; a letter that was purportedly signed by prominent feminists. I'm afraid that may mean some of them are 'wimmin'.

 

https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/forbidden-discourse-the-silencing-of-feminist-criticism-of-gender/

[Paulie Dangerously]

These women just need a good shag.*

 

*Said in the voice of your typical UKIP voter.

Might bloody ave to now! .....see you later

 

[Teasmaid]

There are a lot of reasons why not, I can't be bothered to go over them again. Calling Kelly Malone a woman is just your opinion, it's not an immutable fact. Reducing female sex to only being what clothes you wear, your name etc is misogynist. Ignoring women's fears, distress, anger and alarm at the entire subject, which isn't minute, is misogynist. Men telling women how they should feel about it, and what they should accept, is misogynist. Telling a woman that a man can have the same insight or experiences as a woman is misogynist. Telling women what they are losing or not losing out of the whole deal, guess what, misogynist.

I didn't offer that blog as 'evidence of pantomime dames invading "wimmin space"', I offered it as an interesting example of the two sides' issues. That you would react in such a way says more about how you view women and feminism than anything else.

Bollocks. I took the same meaning as AoT from the links you posted. Am I a misogynist, or am I entitled to an opinion because I was born with a uterus and a minge?

 

This thread is atypical of every every debate on feminism. It always ends up with people splitting hairs over the arguments of a few crazy, radical women; completely eradicating an argument that affects 50% of society. The word 'feminist' has become synonymous with militant types. Women are loathe to identify as a feminist, lest they are seen as a radical, bra-burning nut job. Am I a man-hating dungaree wearer? No. Am I in favour of equal rights for both males and females? Yes. Therefore I am a feminist.

 

I wholeheartedly welcome the voices of men supporting feminist issues, because whether we like it or not, currently men do have more power, and there is a much greater chance for advancement if men get behind us.

 

If you look back 20 or 30 years, to how society behaved towards women, when we were openly touched up and leered at in the street, when TV programmes made a joke out of the objectification of women, and when Jimmy Saville was blatantly feeling up the boobs of some poor girl on Top of the Pops, it sickens us now. None of us batted an eyelid then, and it's shocking to think it was tolerated so recently. It's also comforting to see what strides have been made, and I can rest easier knowing that my daughter will never have to go into work to such comments as 'I wouldn't mind getting my gob around those' and the like.

 

Conversely, it seems like recently there's been a massive regression with the advent of 'lad culture'. It worries me greatly that my teenage sons are being given horrific messages about girls being fair game, and rape jokes are seen as the norm. I've got no sympathy for Dapper Laughs. He's a twat, and whether he's a character or not is irrelevant. Young lads will find it funny, and insidiously will make a game out of similar behaviour. The lad bible, uni lad, and other such sites are the biggest threat to girls that we're facing at the moment because they're influencing an entire generation of kids.

 

We need to move on, and if men can help with putting archaic, sexist attitudes to bed, then I am all for them speaking up on behalf of feminism. Even though they're not female, they have a right, and even a duty, to protect their daughters, sisters, mothers, wives and girlfriends.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I support equal rights between men and women, not because I'm a feminist but because I'm an egalitarian.

[Teasmaid]

I support equal rights between men and women, not because I'm a feminist but because I'm an egalitarian.

As am I, but that involves supporting certain feminist issues, surely?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

As am I, but that involves supporting certain feminist issues, surely?

I think it's the other way around. Supporting certain feminist issues coincides with egalitarianism. If people believe everybody is born with equal worth, equal rights under the law, then the rest of it falls away. That's how I view it anyway.

 

I don't feel the need to create the subset for women or ethnic minorities or the disabled or... I'm just an egalitarian. I'm covered. I don't feel I need to identify with any other group, even if my overarching ideology supports their aims.

[The Flâneur]

Bollocks. I took the same meaning as AoT from the links you posted. Am I a misogynist, or am I entitled to an opinion because I was born with a uterus and a minge?

This thread is atypical of every every debate on feminism. It always ends up with people splitting hairs over the arguments of a few crazy, radical women; completely eradicating an argument that affects 50% of society. The word 'feminist' has become synonymous with militant types. Women are loathe to identify as a feminist, lest they are seen as a radical, bra-burning nut job. Am I a man-hating dungaree wearer? No. Am I in favour of equal rights for both males and females? Yes. Therefore I am a feminist.

I wholeheartedly welcome the voices of men supporting feminist issues, because whether we like it or not, currently men do have more power, and there is a much greater chance for advancement if men get behind us.

If you look back 20 or 30 years, to how society behaved towards women, when we were openly touched up and leered at in the street, when TV programmes made a joke out of the objectification of women, and when Jimmy Saville was blatantly feeling up the boobs of some poor girl on Top of the Pops, it sickens us now. None of us batted an eyelid then, and it's shocking to think it was tolerated so recently. It's also comforting to see what strides have been made, and I can rest easier knowing that my daughter will never have to go into work to such comments as 'I wouldn't mind getting my gob around those' and the like.

Conversely, it seems like recently there's been a massive regression with the advent of 'lad culture'. It worries me greatly that my teenage sons are being given horrific messages about girls being fair game, and rape jokes are seen as the norm. I've got no sympathy for Dapper Laughs. He's a twat, and whether he's a character or not is irrelevant. Young lads will find it funny, and insidiously will make a game out of similar behaviour. The lad bible, uni lad, and other such sites are the biggest threat to girls that we're facing at the moment because they're influencing an entire generation of kids.

We need to move on, and if men can help with putting archaic, sexist attitudes to bed, then I am all for them speaking up on behalf of feminism. Even though they're not female, they have a right, and even a duty, to protect their daughters, sisters, mothers, wives and girlfriends.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you think is bollocks? I dont think at any point I've denied men an opinion or support of feminism, and I'm not sure those links are indicative of that either. I'm all for rights for everyone, regardless of sex or how they identify. The issue, as I see it, is whether females also have the right to their own assembly etc. There seems to be a litany of abuse when this is attempted.

[Teasmaid]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you think is bollocks? I dont think at any point I've denied men an opinion or support of feminism, and I'm not sure those links are indicative of that either. I'm all for rights for everyone, regardless of sex or how they identify. The issue, as I see it, is whether females also have the right to their own assembly etc. There seems to be a litany of abuse when this is attempted.

Sorry, I read you calling AoT a misogynist for being a male and holding an opinion? That's what the 'bollocks' pertained to.

[The Flâneur]

Sorry, I read you calling AoT a misogynist for being a male and holding an opinion? That's what the 'bollocks' pertained to.

Except that didn't happen, did it. Although, can a male with a certain opinion not be a misogynist? I suppose it depends on the audience and how much of a mate they are. Self-important echo chamber indeed.

[Teasmaid]

Except that didn't happen, did it. Although, can a male with a certain opinion not be a misogynist? I suppose it depends on the audience and how much of a mate they are. Self-important echo chamber indeed.

Well that's how I read it. Can a male with a certain opinion not be a misgynist? That would depend on the opinion, of course. If it was 'All women are slags who should stay in the kitchen and pop out kids' then evidently yes, he would be a misogynist. If his opinion is 'There's a difference between a bloke dressed up in a frock and lippy, and a transgender person' then no, there's nothing woman-hating about that statement at all.

[The Flâneur]

Well that's how I read it. Can a male with a certain opinion not be a misgynist? That would depend on the opinion, of course. If it was 'All women are slags who should stay in the kitchen and pop out kids' then evidently yes, he would be a misogynist. If his opinion is 'There's a difference between a bloke dressed up in a frock and lippy, and a transgender person' then no, there's nothing woman-hating about that statement at all.

Has someone denied that there isn't a difference, or said that opinion is woman-hating? Because I haven't.

[Boss]

There are a lot of reasons why not, I can't be bothered to go over them again. Calling Kelly Malone a woman is just your opinion, it's not an immutable fact. Reducing female sex to only being what clothes you wear, your name etc is misogynist. Ignoring women's fears, distress, anger and alarm at the entire subject, which isn't minute, is misogynist. Men telling women how they should feel about it, and what they should accept, is misogynist. Telling a woman that a man can have the same insight or experiences as a woman is misogynist. Telling women what they are losing or not losing out of the whole deal, guess what, misogynist.

I didn't offer that blog as 'evidence of pantomime dames invading "wimmin space"', I offered it as an interesting example of the two sides' issues. That you would react in such a way says more about how you view women and feminism than anything else.

 

This is seriously one of the dumbest things i've ever read on here. Talking about the fear, distress, anger and alarm women feel at the transgender community being involved in feminist issues. The fact that transgender people can't relate... are you mental? do you not understand that being a transgender person in this society is probably the hardest thing any person can humanly do. The discrimination, hate, violence, fears that transgender people must feel walking down the street hoping they don't get their head kicked in is 100x worse than a normal female would feel. 

 

Not even mentioning the discrimination in the workplace, getting and finding jobs, being treated as an equal. Then you agree with women that want to further shove them to one side and discriminate them because "they aren't female" your a disgrace with that viewpoint. If a man has had to go through all that shit to be a woman then he should be accepted by women, and if they where real feminist's ie standing for rights equality, they'd embrace them. But they don't because they 'used to be men'. Disgraceful and shows them to be the sexist bigot's they are. 

 

It's interesting that you use the word misogyny so much, it means - the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Whereas the word misandry i only found out today means - the dislike and hatred of men and boy's. Never gets used in our society because you can't be anti-men apparently, it follows the same skewed logic that black people can't be racist. If you won't let a transgender man come to a feminist meeting then thats misandry and transphobia as well and your a dick head if you sympathise with that kind of logic.

[The Flâneur]

This is seriously one of the dumbest things i've ever read on here. Talking about the fear, distress, anger and alarm women feel at the transgender community being involved in feminist issues. The fact that transgender people can't relate... are you mental? do you not understand that being a transgender person in this society is probably the hardest thing any person can humanly do. The discrimination, hate, violence, fears that transgender people must feel walking down the street hoping they don't get their head kicked in is 100x worse than a normal female would feel. 

 

Not even mentioning the discrimination in the workplace, getting and finding jobs, being treated as an equal. Then you agree with women that want to further shove them to one side and discriminate them because "they aren't female" your a disgrace with that viewpoint. If a man has had to go through all that shit to be a woman then he should be accepted by women, and if they where real feminist's ie standing for rights equality, they'd embrace them. But they don't because they 'used to be men'. Disgraceful and shows them to be the sexist bigot's they are. 

 

It's interesting that you use the word misogyny so much, it means - the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Whereas the word misandry i only found out today means - the dislike and hatred of men and boy's. Never gets used in our society because you can't be anti-men apparently, it follows the same skewed logic that black people can't be racist. If you won't let a transgender man come to a feminist meeting then thats misandry and transphobia as well and your a dick head if you sympathise with that kind of logic.

You seem to be labouring under a few delusions here. This isn't something I have pulled out my arse to bash transgender people, its women, educated women with a long history of feminist action and thought, having very real concerns about the attack on their beliefs, from men. At no point have I assumed to speak for all transgender people, yet you seem more than.comfortable to do so. You envisage a situation of hardship and struggle and presume that it covers all the bases and all people involved, it doesn't. Yet again, there is another man telling feminists and women what they should believe, what they should accept and what the rules are.

You might think its accepted wisdom for trans people to be accepted as women in every aspect, but that just isn't the case. Its biologically not true for a start, a rather important distinction when it comes to sexual health/reproduction etc which apparently trans people insist on being included in. Its also not true when they die, they'll be men again. You think that it doesn't denigrate the female sex to shoehorn a man who has been living as a woman for a whole year into their psychic, physical, emotional and political arenas, but there are many who do. You're insisting that you, and these recently ex men know better and they aren't allowed an opinion. The very word transgender implies something other than male or female doesn't it? Your insistence that it exclusively mean one or the other is absolutely not your right.

Fuck you for your inability to read and fuck you for your lazy assumptions.

[Teasmaid]

Has someone denied that there isn't a difference, or said that opinion is woman-hating? Because I haven't.

You said it was misogynistic. That's woman hating.

 

What is your agenda? Are you just on here to play some kind of mischievous devil's advocate, making snide hints at something you later claim not to have said? Why not nail your colours to the mast and state your own opinion outright, rather than saying 'this blogger says such and such' and then having a pop at anyone who doesn't agree? I've got no time for riddles. Forgive my impatience, time of the month and all that.

[cloggypop]

All gone a bit handbags in here.

[Rick Sanchez C-137]

All gone a bit handbags in here.

 

Fuck you for saying that and fuck you for being called cloggypop

[The Flâneur]

You said it was misogynistic. That's woman hating.

What is your agenda? Are you just on here to play some kind of mischievous devil's advocate, making snide hints at something you later claim not to have said? Why not nail your colours to the mast and state your own opinion outright, rather than saying 'this blogger says such and such' and then having a pop at anyone who doesn't agree? I've got no time for riddles. Forgive my impatience, time of the month and all that.

I cant be bothered with it anymore. If people want to think in absolutes over a very complicated issue then that's up to them. Its not worth my time to repeatedly repudiate suggestions I'm offering the Ultimate Truth, I shall leave that to angry mansplainers.