What happened with Torres and Carra?

[WaltonRed]

So his own standard hasnt dropped then ?

 

I think he had a 'mare last season, and he's started this one in a similar vein. He wasnt the only one of course, but he is the only one who it's frowned upon to criticise. We've had "it's Johnson", "it's Skrtel" and more recently "it's the midfield/style of play".

 

I think his form has dipped massively since big Sami left.

 

His form isnt what it was but who's is?

 

Torres is fucking atrocious at the minute and he's doing fuck all but moan and get petulant but no one fingers him for any grief do they?

[cotter]

legs are going, may have gone. just the big heart left. not the best combination. particularly when most of his passion is being misdirected at this point in time.

 

too much of this 'he's shit, him' attitude in and around the club. look in the mirror. would be easier to accept his increasingly regular outbursts at team mates if he himself was showing any sort of decent form. don't remember him having a pop so often when he was doing his job really well, 4 or 5 years ago. although he was always cajoling and geeing people up in a positive sense.

 

we've never been about cutting people down to size, it's always been about building players up. solidarity. one face.

 

even great players' careers come to an end, unfortunately. bigger legends than him have been fucked off by some great managers at earlier opportunities. it happens.

 

hopefully he accepts that what's best for liverpool football club isn't always the same thing as what's best for jamie carragher.

[Guest ian garro]

His form isnt what it was but who's is?

 

Torres is fucking atrocious at the minute and he's doing fuck all but moan and get petulant but no one fingers him for any grief do they?

 

Except for the way he's getting slaughtered in the media and on here after every game we play you mean ?

 

Torres has got a justifiable gripe in my opinion. Our defence is stuck on the edge of our own box, our midfield right on top of them, and Torres 60 metres away, on his own, surrounded by 4 defenders. Whether he's going about it the right way, is another question, but to say no-one's having a go at him is a bit daft.

 

The point is anyway, no matter how badly Carragher perfoms, no-one's supposed to say anything about it. It's always someone elses fault.

[Randy Marsh]

Right, this criticism of Torres is pissing me off big time.

 

He's been struggling with injuries for the past 2 seasons.

 

He comes back to the club during the summer after winning the World Cup, playing in a great team with great players, and courted by great clubs across Europe.

 

He commits to the club after promises of investment in the squad and new ownership. He now has the new ownership but the investment will have to wait a few months.

 

The strike partner everyone with a fuckin hole in their arse could see he needed desperately never arrived.

 

I can count on 1 hand the amount of out and out chances that have been created for him so far this season. Not scrappy half chances like those couple at Goodison, proper chances, the chances which he has proven time and time and time and time again he will bury 9 times out of 10.

 

He is isolated, and the support he receives is absolutely fucking non existant. He spends his whole match trying to wriggle away from at least 3 markers that follow him around the pitch like a hawk. Therefor he doesn't get a kick.

 

When he's frustrated at the total lack of service, he drops deep and pulls himself out wide to try and get himself in the game. He resorts to long winding runs because he knows that if he doesn't create something for himself, none of the other useless bastards will.

 

And despite all of the above, he hears fuckin gobshites like Redcrap shooting their mouth off on Sky about how "dis-interested" he is. Load of shite, that lads cares more than anyone else out there, that's why he is still here after 4 years without a trophy. He wants to make it work at this club.

 

He's watched Roy Hodgson, the respectable statesman of football and the English manager we desperately needed who was going to get the very best out of everyone, turn us in to a laughing stock. He's watched him deploy an abortional shithouse style of football, one which consists in playing no football whatsoever. He's now watching as we sit joint bottom of the fucking table.

 

He knows that if he doesn't get the goals, no one else will. And he knows that his only line of service is hoofed sand-wedge from the two centre backs whilst he has two grock center halfs marking him at all times.

 

The only man who has ever got him scoring consistently in his career, who knew how to play him and how to build a team around his qualities, is Rafa Benitez. FACT.

 

Our use and waste of Fernando Torres is an absolute disgrace. It's like paying Gordon Ramsey 100k a week to be your personal chef when all you want to eat is beans on toast. He is the best striker in the world on his day, being used to play a pub team style of football.

 

I can 100% understand why the lad is pissed off and frustrated, and if he wants to shush a Carra bollocking because he refused to chase down another fuckin hoof then that's fine by me.

[waddy78]

Something needed to be said (to Torres) but maybe the derby wasn't the time or the place especially at Goodison it gives the bitters abit more to laugh at this week,Carra is off form and has been in and out of form for 18 months,Torres too looks lost for a better word, maybe the players need a behind closed doors meeting to sort out the problems they have with either each others performance or the managers performance a no holds barred meeting get it out and move on then they can all go out for a piss up and set about putting it right on the pitch,As for Carra having to big a role in what happens behind the scene's then thats a problem in the making especially if he is pushing stories about certain players (i dont know if he is just what ive read on here) it has the possibility to rip the squad apart players tend to have there own group of friends in the squad and (sounds far fetched but when things arent going well things escalate quickly) if groups of players fall out then we could struggle to climb the table.

p.s not having a go at Nando were not playing to his strengths thats our loss but sometimes i think to myself just shut up moaning and get on with it.

[piscinin]

True that. I'm surprised he didn't get stick for refusing to play there under Rafa. I know he's a legend and all that, but no one is bigger than e club.

 

Anyone know about this Jim Boardman tweet that said Carra wouldnt sign a new deal with us as long "that c***" was managing us. (last year)[/quote

It wouldn't surprise me if Carra didn't get on with Torres, the ITK local lads have started to round on Torres as they did on Rafa before. TomRs thread of a month ago proves that. What i've never understood is why his briefing against the last manager were not frowned on just as the previous afield mole, Ince was rightly, shown the door. It's not like Carras performances have been any good in the last 18 months

 

RTT look at the way that Henry Winter is using Gerrard (and the captaincy) as a stick to beat Capello. A manager Gerrard genuinely respects, I believe, and then ask yourself, could someone like Carragher really be behind such a thing? These guys, Carra, Gerrard, et al, they are being played, for sure, they didn't believe in Benitez enough to put a stop to it, but they're not leading an insurrection. IMO.

[harryo63]

Except for the way he's getting slaughtered in the media and on here after every game we play you mean ?

 

Torres has got a justifiable gripe in my opinion. Our defence is stuck on the edge of our own box, our midfield right on top of them, and Torres 60 metres away, on his own, surrounded by 4 defenders. Whether he's going about it the right way, is another question, but to say no-one's having a go at him is a bit daft.

 

The point is anyway, no matter how badly Carragher perfoms, no-one's supposed to say anything about it. It's always someone elses fault.

 

thats because player manager refuses to play of him even though he aint got the legs to play the position hes playing now. waits for large crowd protesting outside his door

[chauncey]

We're stuck with Carragher now till 2013 because no-one else will pay him the wages we are. So if the next manager leaves him out, then we're wasting big wages.

 

Won't be an issue, that. Do you think he'll hang around if the board don't allow senior players to run the rule over the prospective new manager? I love Carra but for all our sakes I hope they have more sense this time and we avoid another Roy situation.

 

legs are going, may have gone. just the big heart left. not the best combination. particularly when most of his passion is being misdirected at this point in time.

 

too much of this 'he's shit, him' attitude in and around the club. look in the mirror. would be easier to accept his increasingly regular outbursts at team mates if he himself was showing any sort of decent form. don't remember him having a pop so often when he was doing his job really well, 4 or 5 years ago. although he was always cajoling and geeing people up in a positive sense.

 

we've never been about cutting people down to size, it's always been about building players up. solidarity. one face.

 

even great players' careers come to an end, unfortunately. bigger legends than him have been fucked off by some great managers at earlier opportunities. it happens.

hopefully he accepts that what's best for liverpool football club isn't always the same thing as what's best for jamie carragher.

 

I'm reminded of that story Thommo told recently of how Joe Fagan sent him on the other bus, devastated. Imagine Carra being on the receiving end of such a 'snub'? Of course players are more powerful nowadays but it's still disgraceful when they're reportedly telling their boss what they will and won't do - it does appear the club's been rotten right through during the Benitez years (however as Fowler and Carra's books testify, the English players were effectively picking Houllier's team towards the end, so it's not like our lads lack form for this kind of thing...)

[spider-neil]

torres is being asked to do a job more suited to emile fucking heskey because the 'service' he recieves is disgrace, he also has fuck all support and has to play with his back to goal for most of the game. torres' lack of form has fuck all to do with injuries and all to do with the bullshit system he is being asked to play in.

[dave]

torres is being asked to do a job more suited to emile fucking heskey because the 'service' he recieves is disgrace, he also has fuck all support and has to play with his back to goal for most of the game. torres' lack of form has fuck all to do with injuries and all to do with the bullshit system he is being asked to play in.

 

Agree, Hodgson is not playing to his strengths at all.

[robslappa]

We've got a thoroughbred of a striker and we're asking him to do the work of a cart horse and look happy about it. It's criminal the way we're using him.

[Anubis]

I'd agree with the above regarding Torres's deployment in the team set up. He's the square peg being forced into a round hole. When the tactics change and he's used properly, we'll see a huge improvement.

[Byrnie]

I'd agree with the above regarding Torres's deployment in the team set up. He's the square peg being forced into a round hole. When the tactics change and he's used properly, we'll see a huge improvement.

 

We won't be seeing that soon.

[LFC 6 Times]

Carras a bit shit lads, we have the best striker in the world and over the hilt centre back whos not getting any faster and you're defending the hoofer, Give over Carra wont be around much longer(hopefully) but Torres will be we can build the team around for years to come.

[piscinin]

Carras a bit shit lads, we have the best striker in the world and over the hilt centre back whos not getting any faster and you're defending the hoofer, Give over Carra wont be around much longer(hopefully) but Torres will be we can build the team around for years to come.

 

Carragher's 2 year contract and no CL footie next year says you are wrong.

[ROW Z]

Carra's playing style hasnt altered , he's just getting older and we are not winning . He used to take stick when Ged played him at full back . So nothing new there . Moving to CB under Rafa changed him .

On Sunday he was one of the best of a very bad bunch . Without him though we lack a voice on the pitch . Gerrard leads by example , and after that there is only Reina . This is one of the other probs , to go with lack of quality on the pitch .

[zackop10]

the truth is i love carra, he is a great hero of mine and my 5 year old knows the carra song, but i love benitez as well and i cant get my head round everything that has happened at the club and what is happening right now, sometimes i feel we should not know this kind of stuff as it pollutes the mind and anger sets in, but then this club is like a religion its difficult to not want to know whats happening every minute.... fuck it's only football.... and apologies if over the top with my comments its just frustration and anger as we have collapsed on the pitch... we have never been this bad..

[BCM]

Right, this criticism of Torres is pissing me off big time.

 

He's been struggling with injuries for the past 2 seasons.

 

He comes back to the club during the summer after winning the World Cup, playing in a great team with great players, and courted by great clubs across Europe.

 

He commits to the club after promises of investment in the squad and new ownership. He now has the new ownership but the investment will have to wait a few months.

 

The strike partner everyone with a fuckin hole in their arse could see he needed desperately never arrived.

 

I can count on 1 hand the amount of out and out chances that have been created for him so far this season. Not scrappy half chances like those couple at Goodison, proper chances, the chances which he has proven time and time and time and time again he will bury 9 times out of 10.

 

He is isolated, and the support he receives is absolutely fucking non existant. He spends his whole match trying to wriggle away from at least 3 markers that follow him around the pitch like a hawk. Therefor he doesn't get a kick.

 

When he's frustrated at the total lack of service, he drops deep and pulls himself out wide to try and get himself in the game. He resorts to long winding runs because he knows that if he doesn't create something for himself, none of the other useless bastards will.

 

And despite all of the above, he hears fuckin gobshites like Redcrap shooting their mouth off on Sky about how "dis-interested" he is. Load of shite, that lads cares more than anyone else out there, that's why he is still here after 4 years without a trophy. He wants to make it work at this club.

 

He's watched Roy Hodgson, the respectable statesman of football and the English manager we desperately needed who was going to get the very best out of everyone, turn us in to a laughing stock. He's watched him deploy an abortional shithouse style of football, one which consists in playing no football whatsoever. He's now watching as we sit joint bottom of the fucking table.

 

He knows that if he doesn't get the goals, no one else will. And he knows that his only line of service is hoofed sand-wedge from the two centre backs whilst he has two grock center halfs marking him at all times.

 

The only man who has ever got him scoring consistently in his career, who knew how to play him and how to build a team around his qualities, is Rafa Benitez. FACT.

 

Our use and waste of Fernando Torres is an absolute disgrace. It's like paying Gordon Ramsey 100k a week to be your personal chef when all you want to eat is beans on toast. He is the best striker in the world on his day, being used to play a pub team style of football.

 

I can 100% understand why the lad is pissed off and frustrated, and if he wants to shush a Carra bollocking because he refused to chase down another fuckin hoof then that's fine by me.

 

 

Bang on the money.....

 

Would rep if i could

[Malarkey]

Everything Torres is doing now is just normal for a player who isn't scoring goals or playing well. I'm just happy we haven't got no one to replace him on the bench because the only way he's going to score eventually, is by playing games.

[Malarkey]

Right, this criticism of Torres is pissing me off big time.

 

He's been struggling with injuries for the past 2 seasons.

 

He comes back to the club during the summer after winning the World Cup, playing in a great team with great players, and courted by great clubs across Europe.

 

He commits to the club after promises of investment in the squad and new ownership. He now has the new ownership but the investment will have to wait a few months.

 

The strike partner everyone with a fuckin hole in their arse could see he needed desperately never arrived.

 

I can count on 1 hand the amount of out and out chances that have been created for him so far this season. Not scrappy half chances like those couple at Goodison, proper chances, the chances which he has proven time and time and time and time again he will bury 9 times out of 10.

 

He is isolated, and the support he receives is absolutely fucking non existant. He spends his whole match trying to wriggle away from at least 3 markers that follow him around the pitch like a hawk. Therefor he doesn't get a kick.

 

When he's frustrated at the total lack of service, he drops deep and pulls himself out wide to try and get himself in the game. He resorts to long winding runs because he knows that if he doesn't create something for himself, none of the other useless bastards will.

 

And despite all of the above, he hears fuckin gobshites like Redcrap shooting their mouth off on Sky about how "dis-interested" he is. Load of shite, that lads cares more than anyone else out there, that's why he is still here after 4 years without a trophy. He wants to make it work at this club.

 

He's watched Roy Hodgson, the respectable statesman of football and the English manager we desperately needed who was going to get the very best out of everyone, turn us in to a laughing stock. He's watched him deploy an abortional shithouse style of football, one which consists in playing no football whatsoever. He's now watching as we sit joint bottom of the fucking table.

 

He knows that if he doesn't get the goals, no one else will. And he knows that his only line of service is hoofed sand-wedge from the two centre backs whilst he has two grock center halfs marking him at all times.

 

The only man who has ever got him scoring consistently in his career, who knew how to play him and how to build a team around his qualities, is Rafa Benitez. FACT.

 

Our use and waste of Fernando Torres is an absolute disgrace. It's like paying Gordon Ramsey 100k a week to be your personal chef when all you want to eat is beans on toast. He is the best striker in the world on his day, being used to play a pub team style of football.

 

I can 100% understand why the lad is pissed off and frustrated, and if he wants to shush a Carra bollocking because he refused to chase down another fuckin hoof then that's fine by me.

 

Maxi came inside played it to Carra, made space down the line for Torres. Carra tried to play a simple ball into feet but Torres didn't drop deep for the ball or give him an angle.

 

The only reason Carra bollocked him probably was because we needed a good spell of possession at the time because we were getting mullered.

[Unrighteous]

This is two seasons in a row that we've asked Torres to essentially do a job more suited to Emile Heskey and we're surprised that he's picking up injuries left and right.

[Randy Marsh]

Maxi came inside played it to Carra, made space down the line for Torres. Carra tried to play a simple ball into feet but Torres didn't drop deep for the ball or give him an angle.

 

The only reason Carra bollocked him probably was because we needed a good spell of possession at the time because we were getting mullered.

 

I'll be honest with you mate, I haven't watched the match again since Sunday and I can't remember the incident because I'm a bit bladdered. Basically, what I am trying to say is that I feel sorry for Nando and I wouldn't blame him being pissed off having to chase down yet another Wimbledon style hoof.

[seven of eleven]

Torres is a finisher , sometimes he can make a goal out of nothing but he needs confidence to do that imo . I was a massive hodgson fan and welcomed him to the the club with open arms and A open mind. But what I have seen so far worries me , I fear he hasn't gained the respect of the players yet and training must be missing a great deal.

 

Problem imo is from a comment danny M said "If you listen to Hodgson 100% and do what he says 100% you will win games". Now when was the last time any of our players done 100% of what the manager asked ? CL 2005 maybe half time ?

 

Any ways I feel Torres needs to work of a stronger striker he needs someone roughting up the CBs and protecting him , making space and let him finish off moves that is what he is world class at.Untill Jan comes around or Hodgson makes some head ways on training pitch I can't see our form improving sure we might get odd win and a few draws hell if we lucky a bit of Rafa form 3 wins and 6 draws be very good at this point.

 

I think this Jan transfer is one of most important ones we faced in a long long time and if we don't do something with this squad we be lucky to finish in top 10.

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

Spot on rant from Randy, I think Carra's really suffering not just from age, but from having an unsettled defence. With Sami he'd played with him for a good couple of years as a full back on either side, and later as a partner in the centre.

 

Sami was (justifiably) getting less games in order to blood Agger, and keep a certain amount of freshness for big games, Agger's fitness levels, and the signing of Skrtl led to even less time for big Sami - lets be honest when Skrtl signed most people (i think Benitez even mentioned it himself) saw him as the long term replacement for Carra with Agger replacing Sami.

 

Since then there has been no regularity to the defence, for almost 2 years the once solid defence has been chopped and changed incessantly, this has had an impact on Carragher just as much as his age. He looks uncomfortable with his defensive partners especially Skrtl - he was shouting at him not to foul against Blackpool I think.

 

Soto has been the standout performer when called upon, Agger and Carragher would be my preferred option in the centre, with Soto and Skrtl deputising for Carra and possibly Wilson covering Agger - unsure about the other youngsters, probably one of the ressies followers could best comment there.

 

Unfortunately this kind of setup does not appear to have offered any success to the gaffer over the last 35 years.

[redrosetints]

 

RTT look at the way that Henry Winter is using Gerrard (and the captaincy) as a stick to beat Capello. A manager Gerrard genuinely respects, I believe, and then ask yourself, could someone like Carragher really be behind such a thing? These guys, Carra, Gerrard, et al, they are being played, for sure, they didn't believe in Benitez enough to put a stop to it, but they're not leading an insurrection. IMO.

 

Fair enough, if thats how you see it.

 

For me, the criticisms of Rafa were the same from the same group of local lads, who we know have access to Carra, as from the board members and press who hounded Rafa out of a job.

 

Carra was clearly speaking out of turn to people, those people in turn passed this onto the small inner sanctum of people who frequent this forum.

 

I questioned it several times last season, why is it that only those in and around certain people on here are calling Rafa a C*nt ? Why werent the OOTs saying it ? WE all know who they are, they happen to be the regulars on here, no wonder this site was seen as out of touch by many other reds fans.

 

Well its clear, its as it all came from Carra and people, rightly or wrongly, listened to Carra as he's a local leg etc, unfortunalty, Carra legs have gone, he's in the team on reputation and has backed a loser in Roy.

 

Bottom line is Ince was wrong to brief against Houllier, Carra was wrong to brief against Rafa. Considering Rafa was supposed to be a cunt, Carras words, then what does that make Carra ? Given it was Rafa who turned Carra from the fans boo boy utility defender to a top central defender, great loyalty from Carra there.