Does Pennant have the qualities to be a success here?

[Neil G]

I wouldt have Robben as my Right Midfielder when he is obviously a better Left midfielder. likewise i wouldn't have Lennon or Wright Philips on the Left when they are both better on the Right

 

So no you are completely wrong in you assesment of my system but even if they where all right wingers its not a case of who wouldnt get in, but who would be in. Any of the players you mentioned are much better then Pennant so i rest my case.

 

Those four are the best four players in the Premiership who can play right mid, unless you put Gerrard in there as well. Robben can play on either flank. If the criteria to be good enough to play right wing for Liverpool is to be one of the three best in that position in the country, then at least one of those players I mentioned isn't good enough.

[Paul]

I really don't know why some people are gettin so defensive about Pennant. Unless I've missed something, no-one's slagging him; they're just saying he's not good enough.

 

One point to add to my previous comments on him: I think he's good enough to be back up to the player I've always wanted on our right. However, I'm not sure if he'd be happy with that, and I'd certainly snatch the hand off of anyone who offered us our money back.

[Neil G]

I really don't know why some people are gettin so defensive about Pennant. Unless I've missed something, no-one's slagging him; they're just saying he's not good enough.

 

One point to add to my previous comments on him: I think he's good enough to be back up to the player I've always wanted on our right. However, I'm not sure if he'd be happy with that, and I'd certainly snatch the hand off of anyone who offered us our money back.

 

This for me is the key to the whole debate, and I'm glad to see that at least one of Pennant's critics has picked it up. Surely that's all that we can reasonably expect for the money we paid for him? If the question is, 'is Jermaine Pennant good enough to be first-choice right midfielder in a Liverpool side challenging for the title', then the answer is plainly no. Like I've already said though, that's not his role now, even if it might have been when Rafa signed him.

 

I'd be interested to know how many of the people who voted No in the poll want a first-choice right winger, and therefore judge Pennant against the standards we'd expect from one, and how many think Gerrard should play on the right. The way I see it, the people in the former camp have to explain how we then fit four world-class central midfielders into two slots, and those in the latter camp have to explain just how much quality they expect from a player whose appearances will soon be very limited.

[Guest TK-421]

Sissoko, Agger, Reina and Bellamy all cost around the same or less as Pennant and they've been able to establish themselves in the team on merit, I don't see why it should be different for Pennant.

[Captain]

Sissoko, Agger, Reina and Bellamy all cost around the same or less as Pennant and they've been able to establish themselves in the team on merit, I don't see why it should be different for Pennant.

 

Let me enlighten you:

 

Pepe - keeper from Spain. Spain is the operative word.

Sissoko - Unknown from Spain.

Agger - Unproven Danish talent.

Bellamy - Almost English, proven in the league. BUT: Had a clause in his contract or he would have been more expensive.

 

Pennant - English, Premiership player. And winger to boot.

 

Them's the laws of the game.

[Neil G]

Sissoko, Agger, Reina and Bellamy all cost around the same or less as Pennant and they've been able to establish themselves in the team on merit, I don't see why it should be different for Pennant.

 

It's different because none of those four had one of the best players in the world already playing in the position that they were expected to make theirs. If we'd signed Simao in summer 2005, then Gerrard would have stayed in the middle and Momo almost certainly wouldn't have become a regular.

 

Plus as Captain says, we paid over the odds for Pennant.

[Guest TK-421]

It's different because none of those four had one of the best players in the world already playing in the position that they were expected to make theirs. If we'd signed Simao in summer 2005, then Gerrard would have stayed in the middle and Momo almost certainly wouldn't have become a regular.

 

Plus as Captain says, we paid over the odds for Pennant.

 

Sissoko cost around the same and ousted Didi Hamann and Gerrard to make a central midfield place his own, I don't see why Pennant should be given any special treatment and in my opinion the comparison is a fair one. Crouch is another example, £7m but has made a significant contribution to the team and established himself at international level.

 

Judged by those standards Pennant hasn't come anywhere near as close although maybe he will blaze a trail through defences for the rest of the season, I wouldn't count on it though.

[Neil G]

Sissoko cost around the same and ousted Didi Hamann and Gerrard to make a central midfield place his own, I don't see why Pennant should be given any special treatment and in my opinion the comparison is a fair one. Crouch is another example, £7m but has made a significant contribution to the team and established himself at international level.

 

Judged by those standards Pennant hasn't come anywhere near as close although maybe he will blaze a trail through defences for the rest of the season, I wouldn't count on it though.

 

Re your first sentence, Momo didn't oust Gerrard, as I posted above.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by special treatment for Pennant. He's only in the team now because of our injuries, which was as I expected it would be when we signed him. I've never thought he's good enough to make the right midfield slot his own. And it's really not fair to compare the price tags as Pennant didn't set his price.

 

Are you a Gerrard on the right man, or in the centre? Surely your view on what should be expected from Pennant is dictated by where you'd like to see Gerrard playing.

[Guest TK-421]

Re your first sentence, Momo didn't oust Gerrard, as I posted above.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by special treatment for Pennant. He's only in the team now because of our injuries, which was as I expected it would be when we signed him. I've never thought he's good enough to make the right midfield slot his own. And it's really not fair to compare the price tags as Pennant didn't set his price.

 

Are you a Gerrard on the right man, or in the centre? Surely your view on what should be expected from Pennant is dictated by where you'd like to see Gerrard playing.

 

When Momo started playing regularly with Alonso in the middle Gerrard had to start from the right to accommodate him, or are you contesting that?

 

By special treatment I mean why can't Pennant be judged by the same standards as other players the manager has signed for the same kind of fee.

 

With the players we have at the moment I'd want to see Gerrard on the right with one of Mascherano or Sissoko alongside Alonso once avaiable. Alonso could even get some rest. In the long term though I don't see Gerrard as playing his free role from the right and would prefer a specialist right winger.

[Paul]

Re your first sentence, Momo didn't oust Gerrard, as I posted above.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by special treatment for Pennant. He's only in the team now because of our injuries, which was as I expected it would be when we signed him. I've never thought he's good enough to make the right midfield slot his own. And it's really not fair to compare the price tags as Pennant didn't set his price.

 

Are you a Gerrard on the right man, or in the centre? Surely your view on what should be expected from Pennant is dictated by where you'd like to see Gerrard playing.

 

My view on Pennant is dictated by the bare minimum I expect from any Liverpool player: plums. People slag Djimi Traore to fuck, but I tell you what, he had more character than Pennant. Also, regardless of the role I expected Pennant to have this season, he has been starting a lot of games and should therefore be judged on the merits of his performances. There isn't some get-out clause just because he might be surplanted by Gerrard at some point.

[Neil G]

My view on Pennant is dictated by the bare minimum I expect from any Liverpool player: plums. People slag Djimi Traore to fuck, but I tell you what, he had more character than Pennant. Also, regardless of the role I expected Pennant to have this season, he has been starting a lot of games and should therefore be judged on the merits of his performances. There isn't some get-out clause just because he might be surplanted by Gerrard at some point.

 

Pennant's performance and attitude were both piss-poor in the first half of the season, no-one would dispute that. Since Christmas though there's been a big improvement on both counts, and that's what I'm judging him on. If Pennant had started the season playing the way he has in the past six weeks, people would have been well pleased with him. For me it's enough for him to keep this going, but it seems a majority have already written him off and will downgrade everything that he does from now on, based on his poor start.

[Neil G]

When Momo started playing regularly with Alonso in the middle Gerrard had to start from the right to accommodate him, or are you contesting that?

 

Yes. Gerrard played on the right not because Momo displaced him, but because he was the best option there after we failed to sign a right midfielder.

 

By special treatment I mean why can't Pennant be judged by the same standards as other players the manager has signed for the same kind of fee.

 

Because fees aren't necessarily an accurate reflection of a player's ability.

 

With the players we have at the moment I'd want to see Gerrard on the right with one of Mascherano or Sissoko alongside Alonso once avaiable. Alonso could even get some rest. In the long term though I don't see Gerrard as playing his free role from the right and would prefer a specialist right winger.

 

Fair enough. There will be a lot of rotation at CM if that happens though, and Rafa will have a hell of a job keeping everyone happy. If he can pull it off we'll have the best central midfield in the world, let alone the Premiership.

[Guest LFD]

He's a squad player, Gerrard is our RW of choice and once Momo is back the norm will be resumed. If you compare Pennant to Fletcher, Uniteds backup RW Pennant wins hands down. Indeed, Lennon and maybe SWP aside Id say he's one of the top english right wingers.

 

As for your comments re:Chelsea, apart from the goal he was shite, what do you expect from a right winger ? In that game and for me generally, he tracks back, he holds his position well and keeps a high line pushing up against opposition LB's. In the Chelsea game, Pennant's high line meant Cole was unable to push on as often as he usually does thus negating their left flank.

 

So I agree he's not a world beater, but for 7m what did you expect ? I think he does a very specific job pretty well and has kept the RW spot warm for Gerrards return. On top of that as he's just 23 he still has time to learn from Rafa and above and beyond anythign else, he's one of out players and I personally find the sort of shite said about him should be reserved for United or Evertons players not our own.

 

Just my opinion like....

 

I agree with this.

 

Gerrard and Pennant are fine, top first choice and good back up, even more so if you consider Garcia.

 

The left side is a bigger problem with Kewell who is rarely fit, Gonzalez who is far too raw and shown very little and Aurelio who is getting better. Lots of options but not good enough really.

[drewy]

I find threads like this quite frankly laughable. I love the way people see fit to single out or castigate one player, why not Gonzalez or another such underperforming new addition to the squad. Bellamy has done very little other than hit a purple patch recently.

 

I've said this before, up until November Liverpool as a team where shite, yes shite. Gerrard was shite, Carragher and Hypia were fuckin awful as has Riise been all season. Aurelio has struggled, Gonzalez has been hugely ineffectual and Crouch has failed to live up to his previous season.

 

So let's find a victim, pounce on him and slowly but surely make sure that he has absolutely no chance of making the grade by undermining every little bit of confidence he may have left.

 

This isn't a pop at the posters who have grave doubts about his ability such as Paul or Brownie. Incidentally you're wrong Paul, plenty of people have slagged him on this forum, many of them prior to December when, as I've already stated the team showed mid table form at best.

 

Do you think the lad wants to fail? Do you think he saw it panning out like this? Do you think he's happy? I'd say No to all three.

 

I find his attitude and application wanting but I actually WANT him to succeed; I fear many people on this forum want him to fail and can't wait for him to do so.

 

Remember this, Rafa bought him and as such thought he was good enough. If he turns out not to be, whose fault is it then?

[Captain]

Remember this, Rafa bought him and as such thought he was good enough. If he turns out not to be, whose fault is it then?

 

The blueshite. Ifithadnabeenfer...

[Guest LFD]

Good post Drewy.

 

Like I have said the whole team started poorly this season apart from Momo, Agger and Kuyt. The new players started slowly, which I assume is the reason Pennant is getting the unecessary / unjustified stick. But so did the senior players such as Gerrard, Alonso, Reina, Carragher etc. To be honest some are still playing poorly, in Riise's case, for example.

 

Now I think people are upset we didn't get Alves and feel Pennant is a second choice. Well Rafa didn't get Vidic either, does that mean Agger deserves stick for being second choice? I expect people will say Agger has been class, well Pennant has shown touches of class recently.

 

Gonzalez has offered far less, but escapes criticism because he 'hasn't got used to the style of the league' etc. But to be honest Gonzalez just looks incredibly raw in general. He's quick, but doesn;t know how to use his speed effectively. Has lost the ball far too often and easily and offers little in the final third with a very avergae cross, which rarely beats the first man. Should we start a topic picking on him? No, because he's young and deserves time. Well so does Pennant and time is paying off with Pennant.

 

Wingers need support, they need to be loved so they can express themselves. This is why Rafa has been praising Pennant in the media to give him confidence. Groans, moans at Anfield and topics like this won't heklp anyone. Just give him support and judge him at the end of the season.

[bobhorse]

I find threads like this quite frankly laughable. I love the way people see fit to single out or castigate one player, why not Gonzalez or another such underperforming new addition to the squad. Bellamy has done very little other than hit a purple patch recently.

 

I've said this before, up until November Liverpool as a team where shite, yes shite. Gerrard was shite, Carragher and Hypia were fuckin awful as has Riise been all season. Aurelio has struggled, Gonzalez has been hugely ineffectual and Crouch has failed to live up to his previous season.

 

So let's find a victim, pounce on him and slowly but surely make sure that he has absolutely no chance of making the grade by undermining every little bit of confidence he may have left.

 

This isn't a pop at the posters who have grave doubts about his ability such as Paul or Brownie. Incidentally you're wrong Paul, plenty of people have slagged him on this forum, many of them prior to December when, as I've already stated the team showed mid table form at best.

 

Do you think the lad wants to fail? Do you think he saw it panning out like this? Do you think he's happy? I'd say No to all three.

 

I find his attitude and application wanting but I actually WANT him to succeed; I fear many people on this forum want him to fail and can't wait for him to do so.

 

Remember this, Rafa bought him and as such thought he was good enough. If he turns out not to be, whose fault is it then?

 

I for one dont slag players off if they wear the Liverpool shirt

 

The question was do you think Pennant is good enough to play for Liverpool there are two answers to this question IMHO

 

Yes if we are to finish 4th in the Prem and Win a cup here and there

 

No if we are to win the Prem and become the best team in England and then Europe

 

IMHO in order to win the Prem IMHO you have to have players in the top three in at least 9 positions in your team

 

IMHO we have the following players who meet that

 

Pepe

Finnan

Carra

Alonso

Gerrard

 

We have Agger and Kuyt who have potential to be given another season

 

so IMHO we are a min of 4 players short at this time from a Prem winning side.

That could be 2 if Kuyt and Agger come up to expectations but this is the closest we have been for 10 years

 

As for Rafa buying Pennant so it is his fault if he doesnt make it, sometimes you have to make do and mend with your signings. the real question is if cash was no object would Rafa have signed Pennant IMHO the answer is no

[Guest LFD]

But Pennant isn't our first choice. Gerrard is.

 

Not too many better back up right wingers than Pennant in the league? (SWP being the obvious exception)

[drewy]

[/b]

 

I for one dont slag players off if they wear the Liverpool shirt

 

The question was do you think Pennant is good enough to play for Liverpool there are two answers to this question IMHO

 

Yes if we are to finish 4th in the Prem and Win a cup here and there

 

No if we are to win the Prem and become the best team in England and then Europe

 

IMHO in order to win the Prem IMHO you have to have players in the top three in at least 9 positions in your team

 

IMHO we have the following players who meet that

 

Pepe

Finnan

Carra

Alonso

Gerrard

 

We have Agger and Kuyt who have potential to be given another season

 

so IMHO we are a min of 4 players short at this time from a Prem winning side.

That could be 2 if Kuyt and Agger come up to expectations but this is the closest we have been for 10 years

 

As for Rafa buying Pennant so it is his fault if he doesnt make it, sometimes you have to make do and mend with your signings. the real question is if cash was no object would Rafa have signed Pennant IMHO the answer is no

 

So by your logic Bellamy, Aurelio and Gonzalez are also only good enough to play for Liverpool as long as we finish 4th and win the odd cup or two?

 

Or does that not sit comfortably with your views of Pennant?

 

Fuck me, Rafa's played a blinder with last season's acquisitions in that case and had to "make do" with an awful lot of money.

 

As for the money argument it's irrelevant, we didn't have it then and we still don't now.

[redrosetints]

Thinking about this, I wonder if our style at home dictates that wide men at Anfield wont be charging down the touchline and pinging in crosses. Rafas possesion based game and teams decisions to defend mean that the wide players are often receiving the ball in the other teams half, with 8 or 9 defenders in front of them and very little space to attack. This places a much higher premium on a wide men being able to give and receive a pass and get into the box than on galloping down the touchline and pinging in a cross (Pennant and Gonzalez strength). Hence why Gerrard is our best RW, since he can do those things required. Crucially though, this means that we have to adjust our Wing-O-Meter when judging the realtive merits of a players performance.

 

At United and Arsenal, their wide players are often getting the ball much deeper in their own half and with much more space to attack and players to attack. They will manage to generate 4 on 4s or 3 on 3s with swift passing movement which is a much more forgiving environment for a natural winger.

 

Im not excusing Pennant or Gonazalez or Aurelio or whoever, I just think that our style at anfield where we suffocate the oppostion means we rely more on passing players than on pacey wide men and as such, once were fit and Mascherano is on board, I dont think Rafa will ask Pennnat to start many home games. He'll play away, where he will have more space to attack and use his strengths and then we may get a better idea of how good a player he is.

[Jose Jones]

For me I think we've been only one player away from winning the title for the last two years now. That player is a fucking kick ass dribbling goal scoring creative genius. Someone who puts the shits up the opposition as soon as they receive the ball, and will create something out of nothing when the team need it. Is Pennant ever going to be that player? No.

 

However if we had that kind of player on the left I think Pennant has the ability to be a solid player on the right. He needs to do more than he has so far though. More guts, more confidence, more goals, more end product. He's got the ability to be a tidy player, got a great touch and occasionally looks like he's pretty smart.

So to summarise, I think Pennant has the ability to hold a place in the squad, and to rotate on the right when Gerrard plays in the centre. But he isn't there yet. And he's never going to be the difference maker that I think we need.

[bobhorse]

So by your logic Bellamy, Aurelio and Gonzalez are also only good enough to play for Liverpool as long as we finish 4th and win the odd cup or two?

 

Or does that not sit comfortably with your views of Pennant?

 

Fuck me, Rafa's played a blinder with last season's acquisitions in that case and had to "make do" with an awful lot of money.

 

As for the money argument it's irrelevant, we didn't have it then and we still don't now.

 

No you are correct regarding Bellamy Aurelio and Gonzalez and IMHO only being good enough to get us 3rd place at best in the Prem

 

Lets take them 1 as a time

 

Bellamy IMHO seems to be 3rd choice at the club with regard to strikers

 

Aurelio Is neither one thing or the other(LB or LM) from what little i have seen of him but is the equal of JAR who i am sure would be gone if the right offer came in

 

Gonzalez it will take him a season or more to adapt after injuries and delays befor we know if he will be good enough or not but based on what we have seen upto now i would have to say he is coming up short

 

Again this is only my opinion and im sure many others will hold diffrent views but if you are trying to knock Chelsea and Man Utd of the top then its fine lines It will again for the second season in a row come down to the games played against these sides

 

Take last season if we had beaten Chelsea home and away we would have been Champions it will be a similer tale this year

 

but lets hope next year is a bit diffrent

[Paul]

Drewy, of course I don't want him to fail. However, why should I pretend to be impressed with a player that has been singularly unimpressive?

 

And Neil, tell me what he has contributed of note this season bar scoring one really good goal and setting up about three others.

 

In the rush to be the most fair-minded fan, I wonder if some people are utterly compromising their own standards. I suspended my disbelief for months, willing him to show more. However, I just don't think he's got any more to show. Is he suddenly going to become faster, or score goals, or take full backs on when he hasn't all season? I doubt it.

 

Look, I'll honestly be made up if he proves me wrong. I'm not one to pretend I'm infallible, or ignore errors of judgement. However, I honestly can't see it and believe he'd found his level at Birmingham.

 

As for Rafa, well by implication I'm critical of his judgement with Pennant. In fact I've said before that I think he made a mess of last summer's signings. However, that doesn't mean I don't think he can put it right. He was simply trying to do too much with (relatively) limited resources. After all, I'm on record as saying that the only reason I can grudgingly accept our sale is that I believe he needs proper money for proper players.

[mickyc1973]

At first i thought he and Bellamy were tryin to keep out of trouble and not playing there game ,since Bellamy had his court case ,hes started to look like the little twat we all hated ,great.But Pennant hasnt started and you have to think is he scared of being in with the big boys again, the chelsea game should have kick started his liverpool career,but against the bitters he went back into his shell again, i hope he comes good tho

[Neil G]

Drewy, of course I don't want him to fail. However, why should I pretend to be impressed with a player that has been singularly unimpressive?

 

And Neil, tell me what he has contributed of note this season bar scoring one really good goal and setting up about three others.

 

In the rush to be the most fair-minded fan, I wonder if some people are utterly compromising their own standards. I suspended my disbelief for months, willing him to show more. However, I just don't think he's got any more to show. Is he suddenly going to become faster, or score goals, or take full backs on when he hasn't all season? I doubt it.

 

Look, I'll honestly be made up if he proves me wrong. I'm not one to pretend I'm infallible, or ignore errors of judgement. However, I honestly can't see it and believe he'd found his level at Birmingham.

 

Apart from a good performance against Haifa, he did fuck all until Galatasaray away. But that's not the point.

 

The point is that there has been a marked and steady improvement in his performance and his attitude since that Galatasaray game. The thing that has really disappointed me is that none of Pennant's critics, including you, seem to want to acknowledge that. Instead they take his season as a whole and make out that his performances have been almost uniformly shite since he arrived here. Your post is as good an example of this as any.

 

His head obviously wasn't right for a long time, presumably because he was overawed by playing for Liverpool, and during that time he was embarrassing to watch. After watching the Middlesbrough game, and from what I heard of the Portsmouth game shortly after that, I was all but convinced he didn't have the mental strength to succeed here. I wrote about him in the 'Burning Issue' section of the mag in the issue before last, saying that if he could just regain some confidence and belief in his own ability, then he could still make it here. Believe me, it was a struggle to envisage that, and I wrote it in hope rather than expectation.

 

Over the past 6-8 weeks though, he's looked like a different player to me. Whereas before he was hiding, giving the ball away and falling over his own feet, he now looks hungry for the ball and is a lot tidier in possession. He still has to provide more end product, but he clearly isn't still dogged by the same self-doubt that he had, which is the first and most important step.

 

Everyone knows it takes character to play for Liverpool. But too many people seem to talk about character in a footballing sense as if it's something you’ve either got or you haven't, like footballing ability. It's not like that. It's something that's developed over a course of years, and something that can be built in adversity at any time in your life, not just your formative years. Pennant obviously wasn't mentally up to it when he arrived here, but considering the massive amount of flak he got for his shite start, I personally think he's shown a hell of a lot of character to bounce back. It could even be the making of him as a person, and give him a level of self-belief that he may never have had before in his life.

 

That's why I said in my previous post that I was judging him on his recent performances during the period in which he's been playing with confidence, not on the whole season the way you and others are. I'm prepared to draw a line under his terrible start and wipe the slate clean. He's played well against Galatasaray and Watford away, and Arsenal (FA Cup), Bolton, Chelsea and Everton at home, and those are just the games I've seen. You can't judge him on the number of goal assists he's made when our strikers have shown such a lack of cutting edge when attacking balls into the box – as someone who's been critical of our strikers this season, surely you must see that.

 

I believe there's still potential for more end product there, if his confidence continues to increase. He can beat a man and put in a good ball, which he did brilliantly for Robbie's second against Galatasaray. He just needs to do it more often, which he can if he sticks at it and keeps trying. You can't expect him to go straight from a player whose confidence was shot to someone at the top of his game.

 

Also if he got better support and more chances to link up with the players around him, we'd get far more out of him, as LFD has posted. There is more to a good wide player than skinning fullbacks and crossing the ball. That's not a case of changing our tactics to compensate for Pennant's weakness – it's something we should be doing all over the pitch, because our movement as a team compared to the teams we're supposed to be challenging is woeful.

 

Of course there's always the possibility that he'll have another bad run, lose his confidence and go back into his shell. If that happens then he has to be sold, as it will prove his mentality is too fragile for him to play for us, even as a squad player. But until that happens, I'm prepared to believe that he can maintain and build on the self-confidence that he looks to have found, and that his performances will continue to improve as a result. In other words, to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's something that every player in a Liverpool shirt is entitled to.