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Georginio Wijnaldum

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4 hours ago, TheHowieLama said:

His first season here he was involved in about 20 golas - he had about a dozen assists.

Last season he had zero. Not sure his role changed that drastically - it had to be a bit of a mental block because as Moe says - he got chances. Chances he probably would have converted for country.

 

There's a vid on YouTube of all our goals in the 16-17 season and the striking thing is how much Lallana and Gini are in the box. I do think himself and our midfielders became more conservative in recent years to compensate for more attacking full backs but yeah, his finishing wasn't very good either.

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29 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

There's a vid on YouTube of all our goals in the 16-17 season and the striking thing is how much Lallana and Gini are in the box. I do think himself and our midfielders became more conservative in recent years to compensate for more attacking full backs but yeah, his finishing wasn't very good either.

We played totally differently. Coutinho mainly played outside the box so the 2 "8s" got in the box a lot more and Clyne and Milner were orthodox full backs. 

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9 hours ago, m0e said:

Ok

 

Lallana signed a new 3 year deal April 2017, 17 months after Klopp joined.

 

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2017/02/confirmed-adam-lallana-signs-new-3-year-contract-liverpool/amp/

 

Oxlade Chamberlain signed that summer.

 

Lovren signed for 5 years in October 2017, exactly 2 years after Klopp started.

 

Gomez made a total of 5 league appearances before that (his Breakthrough) season at the age of 20.

 

Klavan was signed the season before as Gomez was recovering from a long term injury. He was a stop gap for Gomez, which is exactly my point about why we keep players on, in order to avoid that scenario.

 

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/261714-dejan-lovren-signs-new-long-term-liverpool-contract

 

Screenshot_20210613-214322_Chrome.jpg

 

Klopp has known about Jones for years, so why would be buy players who are not first team potential if he believes they'll block his passage? He's indicated this on numerous occasions. That's what I mean by planning longer term.

 

And finally, and I have no evidence for this:

 

I think Origi has only stayed in case we got a big injury to any of the front 3, whereas Jota was to challenge the front 3.

 

I think we haven't sold him because we could not replace him with any better as cover, not because there aren't any suiters and certainly not because he's any good to challenge the front 3.

 

The minute we can buy what we want, we'll sacrifice him, but not for another cover player.

There's a lot to unpack there and I don't have much time before I start work, but I'll give it a go. 

 

So I think we're agreeing on klavan? I'm not sure though? 

 

I didn't know lallana renewed back then. So maybe we keep him to bring Jones through. 

 

We bought chamberlain once we knew we couldn't keep hold of coutinho. I don't think he relates to any of all that. 

 

Origi, I think was supposed to challenge the front 3, but obviously that is opinions. I think Jota was brought in once it was clear he couldn't really do that job. 

 

But none of this really changes the wijnaldum position. Let's say you're right and we were planning for Gini to leave 2 years ago and thiago or Jones are his replacement (I can't remember which you said now, but I always thought thiago was bought to replace Gini too) - it doesn't alter anything. You can plan all you like, but chamberlain, ox, keita offer nothing, Henderson is fit maybe for half the games and milner is still old. It means even if it was a great idea to phase Gini out, we're not in a good place, so we need another plan because Gini didn't phase out (like lallana and klavan for example). And that's what I was saying before, if we sell nobody, I believe we don't have a plan, yet his games clearly need replacing despite bright spark ideas of years ago. Nobody writes a business plan 2 years ago, sits down today and they've done absolutely everything in that plan the way they wanted. And effectively squad management is Edwards and klopps business plan. Things change and you need to react to new situations - I don't believe we're capable of doing that, absolutely everything depends on trying to sell the likes of keita. That's not a business plan, it's a wing and a prayer. 

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3 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

There's a lot to unpack there and I don't have much time before I start work, but I'll give it a go. 

 

So I think we're agreeing on klavan? I'm not sure though? 

 

I didn't know lallana renewed back then. So maybe we keep him to bring Jones through. 

 

We bought chamberlain once we knew we couldn't keep hold of coutinho. I don't think he relates to any of all that. 

 

Origi, I think was supposed to challenge the front 3, but obviously that is opinions. I think Jota was brought in once it was clear he couldn't really do that job. 

 

But none of this really changes the wijnaldum position. Let's say you're right and we were planning for Gini to leave 2 years ago and thiago or Jones are his replacement (I can't remember which you said now, but I always thought thiago was bought to replace Gini too) - it doesn't alter anything. You can plan all you like, but chamberlain, ox, keita offer nothing, Henderson is fit maybe for half the games and milner is still old. It means even if it was a great idea to phase Gini out, we're not in a good place, so we need another plan because Gini didn't phase out (like lallana and klavan for example). And that's what I was saying before, if we sell nobody, I believe we don't have a plan, yet his games clearly need replacing despite bright spark ideas of years ago. Nobody writes a business plan 2 years ago, sits down today and they've done absolutely everything in that plan the way they wanted. And effectively squad management is Edwards and klopps business plan. Things change and you need to react to new situations - I don't believe we're capable of doing that, absolutely everything depends on trying to sell the likes of keita. That's not a business plan, it's a wing and a prayer. 

Neither Chamberlain or Ox offer anything? Surely one of them can do a job?

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47 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

Neither Chamberlain or Ox offer anything? Surely one of them can do a job?

 

I'm sure they could. Assuming the job doesn't involve being fit and playing football. 

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48 minutes ago, Chairman Meow said:

 

I'm sure they could. Assuming the job doesn't involve being fit and playing football. 

Maybe if we took Oxlade’s football ability and Chamberlain’s fitness? Ah...

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It's neither foolish or intelligent. It's simply deciding not to pay a guy a lot of money into his thirties and go in another direction. Clubs make decisions like this all the time. Some of those will be right, some of those will look bad. You can't pay everybody big wages. 

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Guess it depends if we stay in our current formation next season. If we buy the right forward to go 4-2-3-1 we may play with one less midfielder at times and need less depth in that part of the squad. The Echo alluded to a formation change recently, and while it may well be yet another of their write something for the sake of it uninformed guessing, letting him go without a solid replacement wouldn’t add up otherwise. However much FSG may be mingebags, both in word and deed Klopp has repeatedly shown how much he depended on Gini, and the man’s nobody’s fool. He’s not going to believe Ox and Keita are capable of reliably covering half of Gini’s minutes.

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26 minutes ago, Dr Nowt said:

Guess it depends if we stay in our current formation next season. If we buy the right forward to go 4-2-3-1 we may play with one less midfielder at times and need less depth in that part of the squad. The Echo alluded to a formation change recently, and while it may well be yet another of their write something for the sake of it uninformed guessing, letting him go without a solid replacement wouldn’t add up otherwise. However much FSG may be mingebags, both in word and deed Klopp has repeatedly shown how much he depended on Gini, and the man’s nobody’s fool. He’s not going to believe Ox and Keita are capable of reliably covering half of Gini’s minutes.

But it might be a risk he's prepared to take to get a centre back. Such was his concern about the lack of cover for robbo, he chose to go one light at centre back to make the numbers work and paid for that. If we are unable to shift keita/Shaq/Grujic/Wilson, it could be ginis replacement is a centre back and there's an assumption with less need for Henderson and fabinho to play centre back, we can get away with one light in midfield. It doesn't make klopp negligent, he can only play with the funds he's given. Right now we're one in, one out. It just happens those players play different positions.

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2 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

But it might be a risk he's prepared to take to get a centre back. Such was his concern about the lack of cover for robbo, he chose to go one light at centre back to make the numbers work and paid for that. If we are unable to shift keita/Shaq/Grujic/Wilson, it could be ginis replacement is a centre back and there's an assumption with less need for Henderson and fabinho to play centre back, we can get away with one light in midfield. It doesn't make klopp negligent, he can only play with the funds he's given. Right now we're one in, one out. It just happens those players play different positions.

I think it’s pretty clear that Thiago was a replacement for Gini. The club didn’t want to pay both of them into their 30s and so when Thiago became available Klopp made that decision of who he preferred.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

I think it’s pretty clear that Thiago was a replacement for Gini. The club didn’t want to pay both of them into their 30s and so when Thiago became available Klopp made that decision of who he preferred.

 

 

^^^^^^^^

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9 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

I think it’s pretty clear that Thiago was a replacement for Gini. The club didn’t want to pay both of them into their 30s and so when Thiago became available Klopp made that decision of who he preferred.

 

 

I'm sure he did. But that decision was a year ago. Since then keita and chamberlain have managed about 15 mins between them and Gini played 50 games. So if Gini is going, chamberlain and keita don't contribute, milner getting older and more unreliable, Henderson's injuries are piling up, well the decision from 12 months ago then starts to look a bit dated and we need to do something. That something clearly isn't Gini as he's signed for someone else, but I think the club needs to find a way to get someone in. 

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1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

I'm sure he did. But that decision was a year ago. Since then keita and chamberlain have managed about 15 mins between them and Gini played 50 games. So if Gini is going, chamberlain and keita don't contribute, milner getting older and more unreliable, Henderson's injuries are piling up, well the decision from 12 months ago then starts to look a bit dated and we need to do something. That something clearly isn't Gini as he's signed for someone else, but I think the club needs to find a way to get someone in. 

Yeah totally agreed.

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7 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

I'm sure he did. But that decision was a year ago. Since then keita and chamberlain have managed about 15 mins between them and Gini played 50 games. So if Gini is going, chamberlain and keita don't contribute, milner getting older and more unreliable, Henderson's injuries are piling up, well the decision from 12 months ago then starts to look a bit dated and we need to do something. That something clearly isn't Gini as he's signed for someone else, but I think the club needs to find a way to get someone in. 

I disagree. Unless we move on a couple of our existing CMs there are areas we need reinforcements more e.g., centre forward, right back, I’d even go another centre half before a midfielder. 

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45 minutes ago, aRdja said:

I disagree. Unless we move on a couple of our existing CMs there are areas we need reinforcements more e.g., centre forward, right back, I’d even go another centre half before a midfielder. 

I am pretty sure that Barry is happy moving on Keita and probably Ox for someone who does contribute.

I'd keep Ox and replace Keita myself, mostly for homegrown quota purposes, but also because he scores more and can cover out wide at a push.

A centre forward to replace Origi also needed, agreed.

 

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3 hours ago, aRdja said:

I disagree. Unless we move on a couple of our existing CMs there are areas we need reinforcements more e.g., centre forward, right back, I’d even go another centre half before a midfielder. 

Right back isn't a priority for me. Neco is fine to play cup games and fill in. And to be honest, because of the attacking nature of our fullback and they're almost wingers, I'd ask chamberlain to fill in there. He's more than capable of that and it might actually get him some game time as klopp doesn't want him in midfield. 

 

I agree we need a forward too, especially if there's an AFCON. I've been saying for months, the absolute minimum we needed to do this summer was a centre back, midfielder and attacker and depending how many go out (or the condition of the injured players), maybe a bit more. 

2 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

I am pretty sure that Barry is happy moving on Keita and probably Ox for someone who does contribute.

I'd keep Ox and replace Keita myself, mostly for homegrown quota purposes, but also because he scores more and can cover out wide at a push.

A centre forward to replace Origi also needed, agreed.

 

If I was choosing between keita and chamberlain, I'd make the same choice too. But as I mentioned above, I'd feel very happy with him covering Trent too. He did a decent job in that role for arsenal and I know when he joined us he didn't want to be dicked about any more and wanted to play a more attacking role, but what's more attacking than performing the role Trent does? And he's at a point where I don't think he can pick and choose. He was fit for a lot of last season and couldn't get a kick, not even off the bench when we couldn't score a goal 

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9 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

Right back isn't a priority for me. Neco is fine to play cup games and fill in. And to be honest, because of the attacking nature of our fullback and they're almost wingers, I'd ask chamberlain to fill in there. He's more than capable of that and it might actually get him some game time as klopp doesn't want him in midfield. 

 

I agree we need a forward too, especially if there's an AFCON. I've been saying for months, the absolute minimum we needed to do this summer was a centre back, midfielder and attacker and depending how many go out (or the condition of the injured players), maybe a bit more. 

If I was choosing between keita and chamberlain, I'd make the same choice too. But as I mentioned above, I'd feel very happy with him covering Trent too. He did a decent job in that role for arsenal and I know when he joined us he didn't want to be dicked about any more and wanted to play a more attacking role, but what's more attacking than performing the role Trent does? And he's at a point where I don't think he can pick and choose. He was fit for a lot of last season and couldn't get a kick, not even off the bench when we couldn't score a goal 

He couldn't get a kick while Hendo and Fab were at centre back, Thiago was out for 3 months, Milner was playing 3 games a week, and Keita was being Keita.

 

He's done in centre midfield.

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34 minutes ago, m0e said:

He couldn't get a kick while Hendo and Fab were at centre back, Thiago was out for 3 months, Milner was playing 3 games a week, and Keita was being Keita.

 

He's done in centre midfield.

Yeah, I agree.... Although I think he might have been out about the same time thiago was, but he was fit before thiago. And while I know not everyone agrees with me, thiago does, he was shit for months with us and chamberlain couldn't even get 30 mins spells off the bench to replace him. And maybe full back would give him the same issue - they're both pretty physical jobs and maybe he doesn't have that anymore. He comes on and chases around and kind of looks fit, but maybe the sports science fellas know he doesn't have games in him. I do find it interesting we never hear about him being unhappy with his role. 

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15 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

can cover out wide at a push.

He has looked best recently played at CF.

12 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

I'd feel very happy with him covering Trent too. He did a decent job in that role for arsenal 

He never did this - it is an urban myth. I think he has played less than 100 minutes as a wingback. Henderson has played RB more often.

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