Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Gnasher]

6 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

All of those things have happened whether we are in the EU or not. 

They wouldn't. Italy for one has been at loggerheads with the EU since the EU refused their bailout plan in 2019.. Ursula and her crew have given European right wingers gifts from heaven. 

[Rico1304]

2 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

They wouldn't. Italy for one has been at loggerheads with the EU since the EU refused their bailout plan in 2019.. Ursula and her crew have given European right wingers gifts from heaven. 

What? If we’d have been in the EU we’d have changed the result of the Italian election?  Are you mad? 

[Gnasher]

3 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

What? If we’d have been in the EU we’d have changed the result of the Italian election?  Are you mad? 

No. I might be mad though..

 

I meant Europe's move to the right is in part a kick back to Ursula and her crew. Super Mario the ousted Italian leader was one of the the top EU politicians and the fact the Italian people have binned him for their most right wing leader since Mussolini tells its own story. France has also moved alarmingly to the right if you look at the increased popularity of Le Penn.

 

It's not looking good in general. 

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/09/26/heres-what-a-meloni-government-in-italy-could-mean-for-the-eu

 

 

[Rushies tash]

10 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

No. I might be mad though..

 

I meant Europe's move to the right is in part a kick back to Ursula and her crew. Super Mario the ousted Italian leader was one of the the top EU politicians and the fact the Italian people have binned him for their most right wing leader since Mussolini tells its own story. France has also moved alarmingly to the right if you look at the increased popularity of Le Penn.

 

It's not looking good in general. 

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/09/26/heres-what-a-meloni-government-in-italy-could-mean-for-the-eu

 

 

The right have always used fear of the other to gain popularity. "Faceless bureaucrats" are an easy target for a populist party. As we are finding post Brexit, raising a rabble to get elected simply creates a nastier, more divided society, and the 'problems' are still there (if not worse).

[Gnasher]

3 minutes ago, Rushies tash said:

The right have always used fear of the other to gain popularity. "Faceless bureaucrats" are an easy target for a populist party. As we are finding post Brexit, raising a rabble to get elected simply creates a nastier, more divided society, and the 'problems' are still there (if not worse).

True. The problem is the past decade has seen the EU walk straight into the hands of right wing populists. The EU should shoulder a lot of the blame. 

 

https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-italys-shift-to-the-right-is-dangerous-for-eu/a-63246405

 

 

 

 

[Rushies tash]

4 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

True. The problem is the past decade has seen the EU walk straight into the hands of right wing populists. The EU should shoulder a lot of the blame. 

 

https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-italys-shift-to-the-right-is-dangerous-for-eu/a-63246405

 

 

 

 

"The shift to the right in Italy is, of course, primarily related to the political situation. Many Italians are dissatisfied and frustrated with the political class. One-third of eligible voters stayed away from the polls. In the past four years, Italy has seen three governments. Meloni's party has not participated in any of them and has benefited from that fact.

 

In her campaign, Meloni emphasized energy shortages and inflation and promised voters that she would address immigration and their fears for the future. This was exactly what many wanted to hear, having written off what they consider to be the elites in Rome, with politicians being perceived as only in it to line their own pockets.

 

The European Union has also been made responsible for the current state of affairs in Italy. Many think that it is aloof and opaque, beholden to the interests of capital, a bureaucratic space of formulaic compromise, and too remote from the real problems of people in the member states."

 

According to this, it's nothing really to do with the EU, more a populist party railing against "the elite" whatever the fuck that means. We've heard that kind of language before from right wing politicians not too far from home. I'd love to hear her solutions to Italy's domestic problems that don't involve things like immigration (for example). Actual practical solutions. As we're finding here, leaving the EU has solved fuck all. You could even argue, things have got a whole lot worse.

 

[Gnasher]

1 minute ago, Rushies tash said:

"The shift to the right in Italy is, of course, primarily related to the political situation. Many Italians are dissatisfied and frustrated with the political class. One-third of eligible voters stayed away from the polls. In the past four years, Italy has seen three governments. Meloni's party has not participated in any of them and has benefited from that fact.

 

In her campaign, Meloni emphasized energy shortages and inflation and promised voters that she would address immigration and their fears for the future. This was exactly what many wanted to hear, having written off what they consider to be the elites in Rome, with politicians being perceived as only in it to line their own pockets.

 

The European Union has also been made responsible for the current state of affairs in Italy. Many think that it is aloof and opaque, beholden to the interests of capital, a bureaucratic space of formulaic compromise, and too remote from the real problems of people in the member states."

 

According to this, it's nothing really to do with the EU, more a populist party railing against "the elite" whatever the fuck that means. We've heard that kind of language before from right wing politicians not too far from home. I'd love to hear her solutions to Italy's domestic problems that don't involve things like immigration (for example). Actual practical solutions. As we're finding here, leaving the EU has solved fuck all. You could even argue, things have got a whole lot worse.

 

It's got everything to do with the EU. Italys soon to be former leader is a former top EU politician. The medicine he dished out has been rejected by the Italian people. The EU were warned be various political commentators and economists that if the EU ignored the Italians plea for help (and the situation for the bottom 30% was/is fucking dire) it would let in the right wing who were stoking resentment from the sidelines. The warnings have now come true. 

 

The EU imposed fiscal constraints (austerity) have not worked. Its created a massive rise in increased inequality and a massive rise in youth unemployment. The optics of Ursula flying around the world doing dodgy deals with despots whilst preaching economic restraint hasn't helped either.

[Em City]

Italy is a really badly run country with a population that veers heavily towards racism and an socioeconomic system that is inherently unsound.

 

I was there a few months ago and it was noticeable how many young people in their twenties, men especially, were working very menial jobs like tickets inspectors or were making their way by selling tat to tourists. I think a lot of the issue stems from no other country speaking Italian. It's hard to attract outward investment when the prospective workforce only speaks what is effectively a marginal language in the modern global economy. That is not to mention the political dysfunction, high levels of corruption and excessive bureaucracy.

[Gnasher]

The warnings with Italy were there. Its not unfeasible to see France going the same way in four years or so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rushies tash]

36 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

It's got everything to do with the EU. Italys soon to be former leader is a former top EU politician. The medicine he dished out has been rejected by the Italian people. The EU were warned be various political commentators and economists that if the EU ignored the Italians plea for help (and the situation for the bottom 30% was/is fucking dire) it would let in the right wing who were stoking resentment from the sidelines. The warnings have now come true. 

 

The EU imposed fiscal constraints (austerity) have not worked. Its created a massive rise in increased inequality and a massive rise in youth unemployment. The optics of Ursula flying around the world doing dodgy deals with despots whilst preaching economic restraint hasn't helped either.

That bbc article I quoted suggested a government that wanted to cut taxes and have a generous welfare state. Paid for by borrowing on top of an unsustainable level of debt. Nobody doubts that the poorest should be looked after, but it's little wonder the EU didn't go for that plan. I'm not in favour of 'austerity' measures either, but the ecb have a duty to ensure that economies in eurozone countries are run properly.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/b53f2254-9409-432a-9755-62c621e3f552

 

The European Parliament has its faults (and I have to admit I'm not a massive fan) but it's becoming a bit of a scapegoat for populist right wing regimes eager to gain power.

[ZonkoVille77]

30 minutes ago, Em City said:

Italy is a really badly run country with a population that veers heavily towards racism and an socioeconomic system that is inherently unsound.

 

I was there a few months ago and it was noticeable how many young people in their twenties, men especially, were working very menial jobs like tickets inspectors or were making their way by selling tat to tourists. I think a lot of the issue stems from no other country speaking Italian. It's hard to attract outward investment when the prospective workforce only speaks what is effectively a marginal language in the modern global economy. That is not to mention the political dysfunction, high levels of corruption and excessive bureaucracy.

 

Italy has a large manufacturing economy. Being in the EU has definitely hampered their manufacturing base. Previously when their economy flagged they were able to devalue their currency to remain competitive against other large manufacturing countries, namely Germany. Being in the common currency prevents them from doing that now and so successive governments find it harder to reduce any deficits. Unemployment then becomes a factor as their goods are too expensive. I wouldn't be surprised to see them leaving the EU.

[Em City]

2 hours ago, ZonkoVille77 said:

 

Italy has a large manufacturing economy. Being in the EU has definitely hampered their manufacturing base. Previously when their economy flagged they were able to devalue their currency to remain competitive against other large manufacturing countries, namely Germany. Being in the common currency prevents them from doing that now and so successive governments find it harder to reduce any deficits. Unemployment then becomes a factor as their goods are too expensive. I wouldn't be surprised to see them leaving the EU.

 

Manufacturing will only get you so far nowadays. While I don't have figures to hand, it would be interesting to see where the manufacturing sector is based. Italy has a well established inequality between the north and southern regions, not unlike the U.K. European Union funds have gone some way to ameliorating this and it's very doubtful that can any Italian government, let alone this incoming one, would plug this gap in the event of a departure from the Union

 

https://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/en/atlas/programmes/2000-2006/interregional/operational-programme-security-for-the-development-of-the-mezzogiorno

 

I doubt anyone will be leaving the E.U after witnessing years of Brexit related fiascos. If the U.K is capable of receding to a secondary player, as looks increasingly likely, Italy's fate would be far worse. 

[skend04]

Just now, Em City said:

 

Manufacturing will only get you so far nowadays. While I don't have figures to hand, it would be interesting to see where the manufacturing sector is based. Italy has a well established inequality between the north and southern regions, not unlike the U.K. European Union funds have gone some way to ameliorating this and it's very doubtful that can any Italian government, let alone this incoming one, would plug this gap in the event of a departure from the Union

 

https://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/en/atlas/programmes/2000-2006/interregional/operational-programme-security-for-the-development-of-the-mezzogiorno

 

I doubt anyone will be leaving the E.U after witnessing years of Brexit related fiascos. If the U.K is capable of receding to a secondary player, as looks increasingly likely, Italy's fate would be far worse. 

These parties that were all wanting to withdraw are now looking to stay in but shape the EU in their favour. Brexit definitely has put the frighteners on and ensured that others won't attempt the same Hari Kari.

[ZonkoVille77]

9 minutes ago, Em City said:

 

Manufacturing will only get you so far nowadays. While I don't have figures to hand, it would be interesting to see where the manufacturing sector is based. Italy has a well established inequality between the north and southern regions, not unlike the U.K. European Union funds have gone some way to ameliorating this and it's very doubtful that can any Italian government, let alone this incoming one, would plug this gap in the event of a departure from the Union

 

https://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/en/atlas/programmes/2000-2006/interregional/operational-programme-security-for-the-development-of-the-mezzogiorno

 

I doubt anyone will be leaving the E.U after witnessing years of Brexit related fiascos. If the U.K is capable of receding to a secondary player, as looks increasingly likely, Italy's fate would be far worse. 

 

Its typically manufacturing in the North and Tourism in the South. That of course is very vague and the specifics are probably harder to work out. This dude says it better than me in terms of currency devaluation. 

 

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/05/italy-will-remain-the-economic-sick-man-of-europe/

 

As for leaving the EU? I wouldn't dismiss anything these days. Its easy to convince a frustrated population to bite the hand that feels them - the UK is proof of that. 

[cloggypop]

4 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Half of Europe has swung wildly to the right

Yet even Italy is to the left of the Tories.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d5f1d564-8c08-4711-b11d-9c6c7759f2b8

[Gnasher]

16 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

Yet even Italy is to the left of the Tories.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d5f1d564-8c08-4711-b11d-9c6c7759f2b8

I dont dispute it. I meant the UK when I said it. It wasn't an us against them observation it more a statement of fact.

 

Hopefully we'll put a stake in the beast in two years time.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

9 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

Half of Europe has swung wildly to the right Angry. France's Le Penn has her highest ever poll ratings. Italy has just elected its most right wing leader since Mussolini. Add in Hungary and Poland. 

 

It was all oh so predictable. The warning signs were ignored. European inequality has grown, the bottom 20% have been left to rot. The EU and Ursula are largely to blame.

 

Edit; as for Frost and the ERG. It's a case of give them enough rope and watch as they hang themselves. Their greed will consume them, they are on course to destroy the Conservatives election chances for a generation.

They're hanging us before they hang themselves. This fucking shitshow comes to us courtesy of the 51.9%.  Thanks, guys.

[Captain Willard]

There’s talk that Credit Suisse might go under next week. If true, that’s a big pebble to chuck in the European finance pond. The ripples will be scary for other European banks. 

[Colonel Bumcunt]

9 hours ago, ZonkoVille77 said:

 

Italy has a large manufacturing economy. Being in the EU has definitely hampered their manufacturing base. Previously when their economy flagged they were able to devalue their currency to remain competitive against other large manufacturing countries, namely Germany. Being in the common currency prevents them from doing that now and so successive governments find it harder to reduce any deficits. Unemployment then becomes a factor as their goods are too expensive. I wouldn't be surprised to see them leaving the EU.

I don't doubt Italy will seek to leave the EU, this was all part of Bannons plan, and why he had been recently concentrating his time in those countries.

The thing is, if everyone defaults back to nationalism then we have the same problem we had back in 1916.  Europe becomes a tinderbox for conflict again, and America has trade deals with some counties and not others, and that leads to a huge disparity between rich and poor in Europe.  The thing is, China will rival America for the rich countries, probably undercut them, and Russia will benefit. 

We set-up the EEC to stop this, and no it's not been perfect, but people are too readily forgetting why it was worth the effort in the first place.  

[ZonkoVille77]

1 hour ago, Captain Willard said:

There’s talk that Credit Suisse might go under next week. If true, that’s a big pebble to chuck in the European finance pond. The ripples will be scary for other European banks. 

 

Hopefully it doesn't happen. 

 

A march towards "collapsing the financial system and implementing a fully digital system based upon social credits" is one of the key conspiracy theories going around t'interweb for last 18/24 months. If Credit Suisse goes it will add fuel to the fire. The tories literally throwing the UK financial system to the wolves is likely to add to that. 

[Gnasher]

8 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

They're hanging us before they hang themselves. This fucking shitshow comes to us courtesy of the 51.9%.  Thanks, guys.

And the shitshow of the rise of the extreme right across Europe comes from rising inequality throughout the EU. Mainly through individual governments but also through decades of EU collective nonchalance and inaction.

 

The results have been predicted for over a decade. We were warned. The EUs own reports (and others) into rising inequality told us. If you let that many of Europe's poor fall through the cracks history shows us extreme right wing populism/facism will follow. It has, the warnings that weren't heeded have come true. The EUs own reports were Ignored. 

 

Thanks, guys. 

 

https://meta.eeb.org/2019/06/19/europes-deepening-inequalities-are-leaving-too-many-behind/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/28/italy-eurosceptic-far-right-technocrat-matarella-racist-populist?CMP=share_btn_tw&s=09

 

 

[Gnasher]

9 hours ago, Captain Willard said:

There’s talk that Credit Suisse might go under next week. If true, that’s a big pebble to chuck in the European finance pond. The ripples will be scary for other European banks. 

I've heard that plus Deutsch Bank are also in trouble.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

GROWTH!

 

[Bjornebye]

On 01/10/2022 at 11:36, Em City said:

Italy is a really badly run country with a population that veers heavily towards racism and an socioeconomic system that is inherently unsound.

 

I was there a few months ago and it was noticeable how many young people in their twenties, men especially, were working very menial jobs like tickets inspectors or were making their way by selling tat to tourists. I think a lot of the issue stems from no other country speaking Italian. It's hard to attract outward investment when the prospective workforce only speaks what is effectively a marginal language in the modern global economy. That is not to mention the political dysfunction, high levels of corruption and excessive bureaucracy.

My friend owns a hotel in Florence. I went to stay with him a few years back and said something like "I'd love to live in Tuscany" and he was shocked. He then went into one about taxes, corruption and as you say, excessive bureaucracy. He looked genuinely confused that I'd leave the Uk to move there. Amazing country but it's got serious internal issues. 

 

The far-right movement will only swell over there, mainly down to immigration and their general attitude towards it all. I think Britain is a pretty racist place but it's got fuck all on Italy. 

[Em City]

30 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

My friend owns a hotel in Florence. I went to stay with him a few years back and said something like "I'd love to live in Tuscany" and he was shocked. He then went into one about taxes, corruption and as you say, excessive bureaucracy. He looked genuinely confused that I'd leave the Uk to move there. Amazing country but it's got serious internal issues. 

 

The far-right movement will only swell over there, mainly down to immigration and their general attitude towards it all. I think Britain is a pretty racist place but it's got fuck all on Italy. 

 

I went through Tuscany on the train on my way to see Florence for a few hours and when I saw African lads at a rural train station in a group of 4 or 5, I sort of knew why the far right have taken hold there. Britain has many, many flaws but by and large it handles racial and ethnic integration comparatively well. The sort integration that seems to get more contentious the further east you go.