Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[thechap]

^{i) What is wrong with those shoes other than crimes against style?}

 

^{ii) Vladimir - prove Farage is a racist.  (And THAT poster does not prove he is a racist despite how crass it was)}

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Well, I listened to nearly 5 mins of the professor and that 5 mins had so many 'what if's' and variables that I cant take him seriously. Professor he may be but it doesn't make him automatically correct.

 

I love the way Remainers obsess about falsehoods of the Leave campaign, conveniently ignoring how pretty much the entire remain campaign was a falsehood, beginning with Cameron's laughably 'reformed EU'.

 

He had to go and so does Osborne. Still, even though he had to go you've got to laugh at his claim that we are strong so we don't quit..!

I love the way "Leavers" can't cope with more than 5 minutes exposure to facts.

 

That's just one way I love my Leaver. Paul Simon reckons there's another 49.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

They didn't systematically lie about the NHS thing. They said they COULD spend £350m each week saved from being in the EU on the NHS. That's not a promise that's a suggestion. If they said we WILL spend £350m a week on the NHS then that's a promise. As it is Gove has promised the NHS an extra £100m per week, which is an extra £5.2b every year, so nearly a third of the money we save has been pledged to the NHS.

The £350m was a lie, though.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

That is no lie. It is the policy of the EU and of our own government to get Turkey into the EU as soon as possible. Cameron's claim that we could veto it was meaningless when he himself has been a drum basher for Turkey joining. Veto, my arse.

Turkey is further from joining than it's been in the 30 years they've been trying to join.

 

Cameron was never going to veto Turkey, because he had already said that he'd be gone by 2020 and there was (and is) no way that Turkey would be ready to apply by then.

 

So that "the Turks are coming" poster was a lie; a racist, scaremongering lie.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Don't then. We both know it's because you can't.

I'll do it, just as you tell me why I'm disgusting.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

^{i) What is wrong with those shoes other than crimes against style?}

 

^{ii) Vladimir - prove Farage is a racist. (And THAT poster does not prove he is a racist despite how crass it was)}

Anyone got a link to Farage on LBC defending the use of the word "Chinky"?

[VladimirIlyich]

^{i) What is wrong with those shoes other than crimes against style?}

 

^{ii) Vladimir - prove Farage is a racist. (And THAT poster does not prove he is a racist despite how crass it was)}

Are you fuckin serious?

A thread on a Liverpool FC website has now defended both Kelvin Mckenzie and Nigel Farage. A new low has been reached.

[njackets]

So Farage has a 1 or 2min slot on a documentary were he talks about the EU being the con job that it is. (I've only watched it once and it was ages ago, excuse me for the sketchy details)

 

He most definitely did not say anything racist though! But because his views come from a position of racism (whatever the fuck that means?) Whether you believe Farage is racist or not to write off a documentary over an hour long as racist is pretty fucking ridiculous!

[AngryOfTuebrook]

IT IS THE POLICY OF THE EU FOR TURKEY TO JOIN THE EU. Assistance is being given to Turkey to prepare for entry.

 

THEREFORE TURKEY WILL JOIN THE EU.

 

Honestly, the bitter losing side in this just will not accept reality. And it's bloody brilliant! Still laughing at you...

 

PS Anyone on the losing side who isn't bitter is welcome anytime for reasoned discussion - something completely absent here. Which, of course, only makes it funnier!

The fact that you see this as a game with "winners" and "losers" marks you out as a small-minded, point-missing, shitwit.

[njackets]

Are you fuckin serious?

A thread on a Liverpool FC website has now defended both Kelvin Mckenzie and Nigel Farage. A new low has been reached.

Who's defended Kelvin Mckenzie?? For fucks sake! Are we going to get any lower in here?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Who's defended Kelvin Mckenzie?? For fucks sake! Are we going to get any lower in here?

Anyone promoting his movie.

[Lee909]

Notes the word shitwit. Likes it and will start to use it in conversation

[njackets]

Anyone promoting his movie.

It's not his fucking movie?

[VladimirIlyich]

So Farage has a 1 or 2min slot on a documentary were he talks about the EU being the con job that it is. (I've only watched it once and it was ages ago, excuse me for the sketchy details)

 

He most definitely did not say anything racist though! But because his views come from a position of racism (whatever the fuck that means?) Whether you believe Farage is racist or not to write off a documentary over an hour long as racist is pretty fucking ridiculous!

FFS. 

 

Farage is the leader of the UK Independent Party a party which has stolen the ground of the likes of the BNP and the National Front and now people are denying he is a racist despite his Party's only policy being to get out of the EU based purely on its Immigration Policy. 

 

How is this twat not a racist? 

No idea how anybody on here can expect to be taken seriously when they are showing videos featuring the opinions of McKenzie and defending Farage from being called a racist. Surreal.

[cloggypop]

So Farage has a 1 or 2min slot on a documentary were he talks about the EU being the con job that it is. (I've only watched it once and it was ages ago, excuse me for the sketchy details)

 

He most definitely did not say anything racist though! But because his views come from a position of racism (whatever the fuck that means?) Whether you believe Farage is racist or not to write off a documentary over an hour long as racist is pretty fucking ridiculous!

I wrote it off as the shite neoliberal propaganda that it is. I wouldn't class it as a documentary as it contains too much fiction.

[FanchesterCity]

This is just wrong mate but I am not going to write a long rebutal

Chinese subsidies are a fallacy . They get a partial VAT rebate on exports  but European producers get a full rebate

There is without doubt Global over capacity . In Europe as well and low prices in the price has been on the floor as result. US is protected largely as is Europe now with a series of dumping cases . The main problem in Europe is over capacity and the inability of the member countries to shut down plant as its such a political minefield.

 

The Chinese government don't want to export steel to Europe anyway. They are not encouraging producers their to sell here, on the contrary they are looking to phase out old Mills but remember its not all state owned any longer and its not something that can be done at the drop of a hat, China wants to sell us cars and washing machines not steel which is a piddling amount in relation to their overall production,

 

Just more disinformation and finger pointing  

 

China exports as much steel and iron as it does cars. I'm sure it wants to (and does) sell more finished products, but still, iron and steel are sill in the top 10 of Chinese exports worth 60 billion. I don't think anybody's denying that Steel isn't the biggest export that China offers, but that doesn't detract from the fact Chinese steel production is the largest factor in world steel quantities (let alone their prices).

It's very hard to put blame for world steel prices on EU production if it's only accounting for 14% of production.

It's also hard to say 'China doesn't want to sell us steel' when it's production has remained at about 50% of world production. If the EU was overproducing (China matched it.)

 

 

 

Then we look at China's steel exports increasing by a whopping 50%

And the EU increasing its imports too...

 

 

 

Then we look at the EU's consumption, vs production, and yes, it overproduced about about 10%, nobody can deny overproduction, but it's 5 times less than China produced and we STILL imported from China, despite overproduction.

 

There can be little doubt that China's production is the single largest contributing factor.

 

 

 

 

but finally, tell me how it's not China responsible for any over production of steel:

 

[Strontium]

Stronts, everything you said there barre that last line is complete drivel. You're lying about not depicting the working class areas that won the referendum as mouth breathers and cretins and you know your lying, which makes it even more blatant. Your anti democracy speech whilst simultaneously claiming you're a democrat is laughable, if it wasn't so hypocritically ridiculous.

 

Ah, it's goalpost moving time.

 

You claimed I "dehumanise the working classes", then when I challenge you, it turns out you're talking not about the working classes, but "working class areas that won the referendum".

 

And even that is untrue, because even if you accept that references to mouthbreathers and cretins constitutes "dehumanisation" (a real stretch), my words referred to ALL Leave voters, not just the working class ones.

 

Come back when you can argue honestly.

[thechap]

So that "the Turks are coming" poster was a lie; a racist, scaremongering lie.

 

There's that spurious allegation again.  It surely has to be the most used word in these forums.

[Strontium]

That makes no sense at all Stronty. None at all.

 

Then let me explain, for the hard of understanding.

 

Rather than allowing the market to determine who farmers employ to pick fruit, and when, you want to introduce the needless bureaucracy of visas.

 

So that's the authoritarian part dealt with.

 

The vile part comes when you think it's acceptable to allow people into this country on a temporary basis to contribute towards the wealth of this country and then, when their "utility" has been exhausted, you want to kick them back out again.

 

You may think it appropriate to treat human beings as chattel, but you'll excuse me if I think that makes you a despicable person.

[njackets]

FFS.

 

Farage is the leader of the UK Independent Party a party which has stolen the ground of the likes of the BNP and the National Front and now people are denying he is a racist despite his Party's only policy being to get out of the EU based purely on its Immigration Policy.

 

How is this twat not a racist?

No idea how anybody on here can expect to be taken seriously when they are showing videos featuring the opinions of McKenzie and defending Farage from being called a racist. Surreal.

Not as surreal as the amount of race cards being produced in this thread over the last couple of days. The chap has got it spot on, they all need to go back in your pockets or this debate will go nowhere (not that is anyway)

[Strontium]

The maker of Brexit The Movie also made The Great Global Warming Swindle. It's also an absolutely shite load of false neoliberal propaganda.

 

http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2007/489-pure-propaganda-the-great-global-warming-swindle.html

 

I think if you surveyed climate change deniers and Eurosceptics, there would be a massive overlap there. Conspiracy theorists as a third category too. Basically, anyone credulous enough to swallow dangerous, illogical bullshit.

[thechap]

What this whole discussion, and many more like it, prove is that you can never engage a leftie or a diehard liberal in reasoned discussion, but especially the lefties.  They will shout at you, scream at you, abuse you, try to belittle you, insult you, move the goalposts, accuse you of any kind of -ism that suits their agenda, obfuscate the issue, change the subject, concentrate on any minor point you may make to distract from the major point, and best of all refuse to accept reality when it stares them in the face or bites them on the arse as it has with the referendum.

 

If anyone wants to hold hard left views then fine, however try to discuss anything with them that goes against their doctrine and they turn rabid.

 

It's really very, very funny.

[magicrat]

China exports as much steel and iron as it does cars. I'm sure it wants to (and does) sell more finished products, but still, iron and steel are sill in the top 10 of Chinese exports worth 60 billion. I don't think anybody's denying that Steel isn't the biggest export that China offers, but that doesn't detract from the fact Chinese steel production is the largest factor in world steel quantities (let alone their prices).

It's very hard to put blame for world steel prices on EU production if it's only accounting for 14% of production.

It's also hard to say 'China doesn't want to sell us steel' when it's production has remained at about 50% of world production. If the EU was overproducing (China matched it.)

 

 

 

Then we look at China's steel exports increasing by a whopping 50%

And the EU increasing its imports too...

 

 

 

Then we look at the EU's consumption, vs production, and yes, it overproduced about about 10%, nobody can deny overproduction, but it's 5 times less than China produced and we STILL imported from China, despite overproduction.

 

There can be little doubt that China's production is the single largest contributing factor.

 

Two dimensions to this

 

Chinese imports in Europe. Not the huge factor or massive volumes that the Europeans claim. Certainly not now they have run a dirty tricks campaign to convince users not to buy Chinese saying its inferior when in most cases the contrary is true. Look at 2015 volumes and you'll see a massive reduction due to dumping cases being brought in to block imports.. After the USA the EU steel industry is the most heavily protected in the world .Their gripe is that they can't compete with China in third markets. Both regions have massive over capacity so have to sell into developing markets.   Frankly I don't have a lot of sympathy with them. Cut back production and stop loss making export sales

The Chinese are trying to do that but the Europeans are incapable of getting past the political issues of closing outdated steel plants

 

 

. 

[FanchesterCity]

There's that spurious allegation again.  It surely has to be the most used word in these forums.

 

 

You're incredible. You were calling someone a racist only yesterday for mentioning 'white people'.

Of course the poster was being playing on racism, it was suggesting that Turkey was going to join the EU and that huge swathes of Turks were going to land on our shores.

 

 

Why do you think they use a picture of a passport and mention Turkey's population if it's not an immigration issue?

The suggestion is clear, If Turkey joins the EU, we'll have even bigger immigration issues, ergo 'we believe many Turks will come here'.

There were no posters about more Germans coming, or more French.

 

Further more, it categorically states that Turkey IS joining - not 'is trying to'. I don't believe there's been any confirmation of Turkey joining the EU.

[thechap]

The fact that you see this as a game with "winners" and "losers" marks you out as a small-minded, point-missing, shitwit.

 

That you don't see 52% as 'winning' an election/referendum and 48% as 'losing' said election/referendum is weird.

 

What a truly bizarre thing you've said there...