The Burning Question: "Andy Carroll - Should he stay or should he go?"

[Flying Pig]

We, as fans, can't control the money we paid for him so I won't let it effect me. On performances alone, barring about 3 games in 18 months he's been the probably the shittest player (and I've seen most) that Liverpool have ever had.

 

Basically, what Woo said. I agree with that.

[DooooodekNo5]

So Carroll is apparently pissed he hasn't been given an opportunity to put the effort in and prove his ability to Rodgers.

 

No where near as fucking pissed as I was with the lazy cunt.

 

Pity he wasn't so fucking determined to prove his ability for Kenny.

 

Maybe if Kenny started him for more than 2 games in a row he might of been able prove his ability ?

 

Everytime Carroll done something good that he could of built on in following games he dropped him next game , Everton away , Wolves away spring to mind , did he ever start 3 or more consecutive games in the league ?

 

What were they on when they threw all that money away on him ? still angers me now when i think about it and the other signings , we should of been in the CL this upcoming season but instead of buying some genuine quality players and doing their jobs responsibly Kenny/Comolli decided to set fire to £80 million , it really was a criminal and tragic thing to do.

[swarveone]

boss header in the euros,we will just have to trust the new managers judgement,

[Strontium]

On performances alone, barring about 3 games in 18 months he's been the probably the shittest player (and I've seen most) that Liverpool have ever had.

 

 

I sometimes wonder if people have been watching the same games as me, I really do.

[navbasi]

I wish him well but he never wanted to leave his home town club in the first place and his heart was never here, by the time he realised what an honour it was to play for Liverpool it was too late.

 

If we can get £15m-£17m for him then we've done well.

 

Goodbye Andy and Good Luck. No doubt you'll bang in a hat trick against us and be the all action striker we thought we were buying.

[sir roger]

I've tried to convince myself that the Rodgers appointment makes sense, but it's a massive gamble & we've basically got the young manager who looked best when the roulette wheel stopped at the end of last season.

 

I remember the Hodgson / patsy thread & I think Rodgers has been cast as a human shield for the owners wanting to save a bit of money.

 

If he genuinely doesn't feel he can improve a 22 year old international player through his coaching, then I am a bit worried. ( He thought he could improve Lita & Moore !! )

 

Getting rid of Carroll & leaving us short up front will pile pressure on Rodgers to have a good start to the season.

[Jairzinho]

I've tried to convince myself that the Rodgers appointment makes sense, but it's a massive gamble & we've basically got the young manager who looked best when the roulette wheel stopped at the end of last season.

 

I remember the Hodgson / patsy thread & I think Rodgers has been cast as a human shield for the owners wanting to save a bit of money.

 

If he genuinely doesn't feel he can improve a 22 year old international player through his coaching, then I am a bit worried. ( He thought he could improve Lita & Moore !! )

 

Getting rid of Carroll & leaving us short up front will pile pressure on Rodgers to have a good start to the season.

 

He had Lita and Moore because he was at Swansea.

 

I don't understand your last sentence. Why would it pile pressure on him getting rid of Carroll?

 

People are talking about Carroll like he got 20 goals last season. Rodgers wants to play possession based football. He sees a lazy, inconsistent, cumbersome striker, with only partial control of his legs, and understandably wants to fuck him off.

 

I'm not comprehending the shock, or even significance, that many seem to be.

[Flying Pig]

I sometimes wonder if people have been watching the same games as me, I really do.

 

I may have overexaggerated my opinion, but he is still nowhere near the standard of a world class centre forward we are use to. And the worst value for money I've ever seen by us.

[sir roger]

He had Lita and Moore because he was at Swansea.

 

I don't understand your last sentence. Why would it pile pressure on him getting rid of Carroll?

 

People are talking about Carroll like he got 20 goals last season. Rodgers wants to play possession based football. He sees a lazy, inconsistent, cumbersome striker, with only partial control of his legs, and understandably wants to fuck him off.

 

I'm not comprehending the shock, or even significance, that many seem to be.

 

I take your point about them signing for Swansea, but he presumably thought he could make decent players out of them in the same system he is proposing for us. So why can't he envisage improving Carroll ?

 

A fair few fans I've spoke to aren't best pleased with Carroll being forced out. If we start poorlywith the likes of Borini not playing too well, I can see rumblings very quickly, Jair.

[Jairzinho]

I take your point about them signing for Swansea, but he presumably thought he could make decent players out of them in the same system he is proposing for us. So why can't he envisage improving Carroll ?

A fair few fans I've spoke to aren't best pleased with Carroll being forced out. If we start poorlywith the likes of Borini not playing too well, I can see rumblings very quickly, Jair.

 

Maybe he can, to some extent, but doesn't see the point. At Swansea his options were far more limited, but so were expectations. If he can take a £1.5m punt on Lita, and he ends up getting 7/8 goals (I presume he probably didn't), then thats a success of sorts.

 

If he stuck with Carroll, and he had an abysmal six months, it could cost the manager his job. He needs to have much more faith in his strikers here than he did at Swansea. It matters more.

 

I think it would be extremely unfair of anyone to turn on Rodgers quickly in your scenario. We have a very tough start to the season, Borini is 21, and there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Carroll would have made a huge positive impact if he was playing instead.

 

The manager has to be allowed to implement his vision.

[Section_31]

He should be drop kicked out of here, £15m is a steal. The fact people are using this as a stick to beat Rodgers with is laughable. When did Andy fucking Carroll turn into a folk hero? Absolute shite he is. When you think of some of the players who've worn that shirt and the lad couldn't even be arsed getting fit. His exit can't come too soon.

[TheHowieLama]

If this transaction ends up with us getting Walcott and Ba for Carroll it will be miraculous.

[sir roger]

Maybe he can, to some extent, but doesn't see the point. At Swansea his options were far more limited, but so were expectations. If he can take a £1.5m punt on Lita, and he ends up getting 7/8 goals (I presume he probably didn't), then thats a success of sorts.

 

If he stuck with Carroll, and he had an abysmal six months, it could cost the manager his job. He needs to have much more faith in his strikers here than he did at Swansea. It matters more.

 

I think it would be extremely unfair of anyone to turn on Rodgers quickly in your scenario. We have a very tough start to the season, Borini is 21, and there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Carroll would have made a huge positive impact if he was playing instead.

 

The manager has to be allowed to implement his vision.

 

The ' implementing his vision' is fine, but if it ends up not working then the fingers can only point in one direction.

 

I am not suggesting that Carroll is the second coming or anything like that, but I just think that it is a decision that didn't need to be made at this point & smacks of either Rodgers trying to stamp his authority ( fair enough but he must take the flak if it turns out poorly ) or the owners using him to balance the books by making it look like a footballing decision.

[Section_31]

The ' implementing his vision' is fine, but if it ends up not working then the fingers can only point in one direction.

 

I am not suggesting that Carroll is the second coming or anything like that, but I just think that it is a decision that didn't need to be made at this point & smacks of either Rodgers trying to stamp his authority ( fair enough but he must take the flak if it turns out poorly ) or the owners using him to balance the books by making it look like a footballing decision.

 

Maybe he just doesn't rate him? That's not a stretch is it, surely?

[MLB]

This thread really is a festival of braindead hyperbole.

[Coro]

This thread really is a festival of braindead hyperbole.

 

From Section31, mostly.

 

Would much rather read Carra's thoughts -

 

Carroll, at the end of last season for Liverpool and now for his country, is proving he has the potential to stand in such esteemed company and there is far more to utilising him than simply hitting it high and long.

 

The prototype modern target man is Didier Drogba. When we signed Andy, the hope was he would become an English version — a battering ram at both ends of the field but with touch and technique to score goals.

 

He endured a difficult start to his Liverpool career but on the basis of recent performances, that aspiration is carrying greater weight.

 

Not only did Drogba excel at Stamford Bridge with his goals, but as a defensive weapon. He was one of Chelsea’s best defenders against Barcelona and Bayern Munich in the Champions League Andy did exactly the same role for England on Friday and it is also an essential responsibility he has at Liverpool.

 

When he was struggling earlier in the season, there were times people would ask me why he wasn’t substituted. I’d tell people to consider the defensive contribution he was making, particularly against those Premier League teams who do bombard you with set pieces. That kind of work tends to go unnoticed because ultimately a striker lives or dies by his goals, but from a manager’s point of view it is incredibly important.

 

Now Andy is adding that essential ingredient of goals too. The change in him now to a few months ago is self-evident. I’d sum it up in one word. Mobility.

 

Since he’s become fitter, his movement has increased, his aerial presence has intensified and his balance is better, which is impacting on his shooting ability. Piece this together and you have a confident beast up front who, at times, looks unplayable.

 

There are basic qualities you want from your front men. You want to see him making plenty of runs to provide a passing option, to have the strength and touch to hold it up and lay it off, and then have the ability to time runs into the box and get on the end of crosses. When you’re a defender, you want your strikers running into channels to find space to make sure you can play a meaningful ball.

 

Andy has started to do that. An on-form striker turns bad balls into good ones. A poor striker turns good passes into bad ones. It sounds simple enough, but these are the fundamentals lesser strikers consistently fail to grasp.

 

As a centre half, there is nothing I love more than coming up against a player who is static. You know they’re not going get a running start on you when balls fly across goal, so even if they win a header it will just tamely bounce off their head to nowhere in particular.

 

When Andy was struggling for fitness, he was too static. Now we’re seeing him timing his runs and leaping to get power on his headers, as he did for the first goal against the Swedes. He will justifiably argue he has not always received that kind of service.

[sir roger]

Maybe he just doesn't rate him? That's not a stretch is it, surely?

 

Time will tell .

 

I suppose my overall worry is that Rodgers' may have been over-valued massively due to a short purple period, in a similar way to Carroll at Newcastle.

[Section_31]

From Section31, mostly.

 

Yeah thanks for the snippet from Carragher, great work - do you have any thoughts of your own on the subject?

 

English Didier Dorgba, Christ on a fucking bike.

[ianfitz]

Worth bearing in mind that we are due to pay him £14million+ over the next three and half years on his contact. Selling him frees up another chunk of the wage bill

 

The 'loss' from selling him is probably less of an issue; as currently we've lost £35m, if we can some back to spend on players the manager wants then...

[Jairzinho]

Have the club put Carra up to this?

[Coro]

Yeah thanks for the snippet from Carragher, great work - do you have any thoughts of your own on the subject?

 

Yes. I agree with Carragher.

[Section_31]

Yes. I agree with Carragher.

 

Intersesting how you left this nugget off the end you Winston Smith motherfucker:

 

Euro 2012: Andy Carroll hits heights as an upwardly mobile striker for England, says Jamie Carragher - Telegraph

 

Theo Walcott may have proved himself the ultimate impact player rather than starter. Carroll could also return to becoming an ideal second option from the bench.

 

 

The compariossons with Mario Gomez (202 goals in 341 games) are also highly amusing.

[Coro]

Yes, the Drogba/Gomez comparisons have given you an out.

 

Should have just posted this bit

 

Now Andy is adding that essential ingredient of goals too. The change in him now to a few months ago is self-evident. I’d sum it up in one word. Mobility.

 

Since he’s become fitter, his movement has increased, his aerial presence has intensified and his balance is better, which is impacting on his shooting ability. Piece this together and you have a confident beast up front who, at times, looks unplayable.

 

There are basic qualities you want from your front men. You want to see him making plenty of runs to provide a passing option, to have the strength and touch to hold it up and lay it off, and then have the ability to time runs into the box and get on the end of crosses. When you’re a defender, you want your strikers running into channels to find space to make sure you can play a meaningful ball.

 

Andy has started to do that. An on-form striker turns bad balls into good ones. A poor striker turns good passes into bad ones. It sounds simple enough, but these are the fundamentals lesser strikers consistently fail to grasp.

 

As a centre half, there is nothing I love more than coming up against a player who is static. You know they’re not going get a running start on you when balls fly across goal, so even if they win a header it will just tamely bounce off their head to nowhere in particular.

 

When Andy was struggling for fitness, he was too static. Now we’re seeing him timing his runs and leaping to get power on his headers, as he did for the first goal against the Swedes.

[Cardinal]

I say forget his price tag and use Carroll like any other member of the squad. If we want to achieve anything in the league over 38 games then we need options in the starting 11 and on the bench. We need pace, movement, guile, power etc.

 

With Dirk leaving we needed another front man. Borini has come in and hopefully he, Suarez and Gerrard will give us pace, movement and guile. Players like Bellamy (if he stays) and Aquilani (if he comes back) can also contribute to one or more of these traits. However, aside from Gerrard, none of them have raw power. Big Andy, on the other hand, is a human wrecking ball when he's in the mood and sometimes that is just what is needed.

 

Whether it's against brutal ten-behind-the-ball merchants (Pulis, Allardyce); soft centres (Arsenal); or the better quality physical sides (Man City, Chelsea), there are times when the Big Man is going to be the difference.

 

If/when the pass and move game isn't working, then it is not a betrayal of our principles to have a Plan B.

 

DeNiro once said that you get further in this life with a kind word and a gun than you ever do with just a kind word. Well, I say that we'll go further this season with Suarez and a Carroll than we ever will with just Suarez.

 

Besides, I love the big lump so I would definitely keep him.

[Tony Moanero]

He had Lita and Moore because he was at Swansea.

 

He sees a lazy, inconsistent, cumbersome striker, with only partial control of his legs, and understandably wants to fuck him off.

 

Can you read minds, like?