Rafa not happy....

[hamstrung]

They're two different points though chops - thinking Barry's not worth the money doesn't mean you've gone off the manager. I don't think anyone sees Parry or the owners as anything but incompetent and/or malicious.

 

For the record, I want Benitez to stay, but I do question his judgement on occasion. I can even understand why the owners have got jittery over this transfer, because it's essentially a 10 million pound swing on one purchase - Barry up from 12m to 18m, Alonso down from 16m to 12m.

 

Ultimately though, despite the jitters (and they should have kept them quiet), they should either back the judgement of Benitez or replace him. And Benitez should show a bit of gumption and principle - be quiet, and if you feel that strongly about it that you can't, you should stand by your principles and resign, rather than cry to the press about it.

 

About as fair an assessment as is likely to be posted.

[Red Nick]

Did they own a Millennium Falcon?

 

That I cannot answer but Younglings they were not

[Juan Galonso]

I DO think you have an anti-Rafa agenda, as some of your posts over the weekend show. How do we KNOW for a FACT that Rafa said he could get Barry for £12m - it's an unlikely scenario to say the least (and IF it is true, it is likely to be the figure that O'Neill agreed with Barry last summer that he could leave for, so it's hardly Rafa's fault that O'Neill is a devious b*stard, is it?). And it's ONLY Bascombe (ie Parry) who has said that Alonso was priced at over £20m - none of the teams interested in him have come anywhere near that, and again there is no FACTUAL basis for this assertion. It's not at all that i think Rafa can do no wrong - I've said on a few occasions that the signing of Keane for instance is a bad error in my view - it's just that, if you like, I believe the 'Liverpool way' is about fairness. Thus, I've corrected you on the Desailly story because you were making claims about Roy Evans behaviour in similar circumstances as a way of berating and criticising Rafa's behaviour in the present - but your "facts" simply weren't right.

 

By all means critical of our manager, but be fair about it. Isn't that the famed Liverpool way that we expect from our club?

 

How do we KNOW the Desailly thing is true then to put the boot on the other foot and being pedantic about it. I don't have an anti Rafa agenda and even if I did that is my own opinion. I don't like the way he is carrying on and he is as devious as O'Neill if not more so.

[Barrington Womble]

I don't know whether what you say is true or not. What I've written on this thread is based on what I know, and I know that the owners don't think Barry is worth £18m. As I've said, I don't care how much the owners think Barry is worth. If he's still the manager's first choice then let him buy Barry or employ a yes man.

 

as has been said by loads of posters on this thread, it's just not that simple is it? it's not just a matter of rafa beibng a yes man or not. he said he wanted barry. he said he'd get him for 12m and sell alonso. the price is 18m and we still have alonso on the books. if we're just going to give rafa everything he wants paying any stupid amount of money and having a european food mountain of central midfielders, he's at the wrong club and he needs to pack up and go to madrid or chelsea.

[Moschops II]

I find that a bit of a bizarre statement bearing in mind the fact that the manager and one of the owners clearly don't like the way he goes about his business.

 

It's not bizarre, Ian, it proves the point. He's had years of large numbers of the fans hating him, he barely seems to be on speaking terms with the manager from one season to the next, and one of the owners publicly called his competence into question and demanded that he leave the club.

 

Still there though, isn't he?

[coop]

I support Liverpool FC not Rafael Benitez FC

 

John like yourself i support Liverpool FC and for me Rafa is far from faultless as team selections and outbursts in the past have proven this.

 

I do however think it could be near disaster if Rafa was to resign/sacked at the moment because i fear the kind of manager we would get in his place.

 

I firmly believe we would still attract a top manager but its the fact the current owners would want a 'yes' man which for me would mean a manager like Klinnsman rather then Hiddink.

 

I know about Rafa telling the board/owners he felt he could get Barry for around £12 and selling Alonso for £20-25 million but as soon as that became apparent that was not to be the case why did the owners not step in straight away and say the deal could not go ahead.

 

From the end of the season Villa have made it clear that Barry could only leave for £18 million so the deal should have been nipped in the bud then instead of allowing it to drag on and on embarrasing the club more and more.

 

Brownie has it right when he says the thread should should just be closed now as people are going around and around in circles when the recent forum changes were to try and stop such events happening.

[Red Nick]

They're two different points though chops - thinking Barry's not worth the money doesn't mean you've gone off the manager. I don't think anyone sees Parry or the owners as anything but incompetent and/or malicious.

 

For the record, I want Benitez to stay, but I do question his judgement on occasion. I can even understand why the owners have got jittery over this transfer, because it's essentially a 10 million pound swing on one purchase - Barry up from 12m to 18m, Alonso down from 16m to 12m.

 

Ultimately though, despite the jitters (and they should have kept them quiet), they should either back the judgement of Benitez or replace him. And Benitez should show a bit of gumption and principle - be quiet, and if you feel that strongly about it that you can't, you should stand by your principles and resign, rather than cry to the press about it.

 

Thats about the most balanced post on this thread.

 

You either back him or sack him or basically tell him if he wants Barry then he has to sell 18 worth of players first. I think if the Owners were honest with him that would make his life a lot easier

[Juan Galonso]

as has been said by loads of posters on this thread, it's just not that simple is it? it's not just a matter of rafa beibng a yes man or not. he said he wanted barry. he said he'd get him for 12m and sell alonso. the price is 18m and we still have alonso on the books. if we're just going to give rafa everything he wants paying any stupid amount of money and having a european food mountain of central midfielders, he's at the wrong club and he needs to pack up and go to madrid or chelsea.

 

And the truth shall set you free!!!

[RedPower]

My anti Rafa agenda. Why IS it people think he can do no wrong. The same thing happened four years ago under our ex manager and look how that turned out. I think Rafa is a great manager I have said it before. I just think he isn't acting like a Liverpool manager is supposed to. If he says to the owners in April I can buy Barry for 12m and sell Xabi for 20m plus then th figures get reversed in FOUR months. Aren't they in their rights to question that? It is financial MADNESS if that deal went ahead and Alonso was sold for less espec with a percentage of the fee to go to Sociedad. The next time he threatens to quit to his mate Balague the yanks should call his bluff. His arse would drop.

 

With constantly rising building costs, the paragons of fiscal discipline swan into town and commission a vastly more expensive stadium than the planned ‘Parry Bowl’, which even now after the ‘value engineering’ exercise looks like it’s way, way too expensive for us seeing that we will have to take out loans amounting to hundreds of millions of £’s to pay for it - debt which will be added to several hundreds of millions of £’s that is already secured around our necks.

 

As already has been pointed out, the owners don’t give two fucks about the Club. If Rafa didn’t give two fucks he could just have a quiet life collecting his salary while mumbling inane platitudes at every opportunity.

[Moschops II]

They're two different points though chops - thinking Barry's not worth the money doesn't mean you've gone off the manager. I don't think anyone sees Parry or the owners as anything but incompetent and/or malicious.

 

For the record, I want Benitez to stay, but I do question his judgement on occasion. I can even understand why the owners have got jittery over this transfer, because it's essentially a 10 million pound swing on one purchase - Barry up from 12m to 18m, Alonso down from 16m to 12m.

 

Ultimately though, despite the jitters (and they should have kept them quiet), they should either back the judgement of Benitez or replace him. And Benitez should show a bit of gumption and principle - be quiet, and if you feel that strongly about it that you can't, you should stand by your principles and resign, rather than cry to the press about it.

 

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. But I think it's worth reiterating that I've not actually seen very much evidence of Rafa "throwing his toys out of the pram" over the collapse of the Barry transfer - when he has publicly been made to look a cock over it, and when it has obviously disrupted the plans he'd put into place for this season.

 

After all, it wasn't the manager using the official site to make embarrassing statements about the deal (or lack of it) - and it hasn't been the manager acting as Bascombe's source in the NotW.

 

As I've said elsewhere, I think we need to recognise there's different stakes involved for different players here - and also that I still find it very difficult to take our official reasons for not completing the Barry deal at face value when we spent £20 million on Robbie Keane.

[Barrington Womble]

John like yourself i support Liverpool FC and for me Rafa is far from faultless as team selections and outbursts in the past have proven this.

 

I do however think it could be near disaster if Rafa was to resign/sacked at the moment because i fear the kind of manager we would get in his place.

I firmly believe we would still attract a top manager but its the fact the current owners would want a 'yes' man which for me would mean a manager like Klinnsman rather then Hiddink.

 

I know about Rafa telling the board/owners he felt he could get Barry for around £12 and selling Alonso for £20-25 million but as soon as that became apparent that was not to be the case why did the owners not step in straight away and say the deal could not go ahead.

 

From the end of the season Villa have made it clear that Barry could only leave for £18 million so the deal should have been nipped in the bud then instead of allowing it to drag on and on embarrasing the club more and more.

 

Brownie has it right when he says the thread should should just be closed now as people are going around and around in circles when the recent forum changes were to try and stop such events happening.

 

and that is the biggest worry in this whole situation. I think rafa is a good manager, but I don't think he is the faultless god some people think him to be. If he left and was replaced by someone of quality, I wouldn't be upset about it. The problem is nobody of quality and intelligence would touch our club right now.

[Brownie]

It's not bizarre, Ian, it proves the point. He's had years of large numbers of the fans hating him, he barely seems to be on speaking terms with the manager from one season to the next, and one of the owners publicly called his competence into question and demanded that he leave the club.

 

Still there though, isn't he?

 

And what are you doing about it then?

[hamstrung]

Not sure if this has been put on here

 

Revealed: Anfield's inner turmoil - Liverpool Echo.co.uk

 

Revealed: Anfield's inner turmoil

Aug 19 2008 Tony Barrett

 

OVER the weekend Rafa Benitez moved to deny claims in parts of the media that we was about to resign in fury after Liverpool’s owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett pulled the plug on the Gareth Barry transfer bid. Here Liverpool writer Tony Barrett examines the ongoing tensions behind the scenes at Anfield which have surfaced with the Liverpool boss again airing his long-held frustrations at the start of the new season.

 

PARRY AND BENITEZ...

 

ACCORDING to official club documents seen by the ECHO, Liverpool Chief Executive Rick Parry cannot be held responsible for the collapse of the Gareth Barry deal.

 

The club's hierarchy has taken collective responsibility for pulling out of the proposed signing as long as Aston Villa's asking price remains £18m.

 

Both owners categorically believe that price is too high, particularly having been informed by Rafa Benitez early in the process that he hoped to be able to do a deal for between £10m-15m.

 

The waters have been muddied somewhat by the fact that Benitez knows Parry is a big admirer of Xabi Alonso and that the Reds chief executive believes it would be a grave mistake to let the Spanish midfielder go, particularly if he does not attract a fee close to what Liverpool would be expected to pay for Barry.

 

Furthermore, Benitez has continually complained of progress in the transfer market being "too slow" and remains angry that targets have been missed in recent seasons, with the loss of Florent Malouda to Chelsea being a particular irritant.

 

All of this combined to create a situation in which Benitez told reporters at last Friday's pre-match press conference at Melwood that, should they want to talk about Barry, they should direct their questions at the man who had been negotiating the deal on Liverpool's behalf – Rick Parry.

 

The following day, the Reds boss spoke in the aftermath of Liverpool's 1-0 win over Sunderland and he again focused attention on Parry, saying: "We have to be quicker. I thought this four years ago and I think it now. If you are quicker it is easier to sign the target you have."

 

Unfortunately, on this occasion it a question of value rather than speed as the club’s owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett had decided not to spend £18m on Barry because the board did not feel the England man was worthy of such a hefty price tag.

 

Benitez's reference to "four years" is significant because it provides an insight into the fact, as he is continually at pains to point out to his inner circle, that the club in general and Parry in particular are not as robust in the transfer market as they should be.

 

The Reds boss feels he is right to have such misgivings having seen the likes of Malouda, Nemanja Vidic and Abou Diaby scouted and targeted only to go elsewhere.

 

But on this occasion, his ire should not have been focused on Parry who clearly did not block the deal for Barry, he merely took collective responsibility with the rest of the Anfield board once Hicks and Gillett had refused to sanction an outlay of £18m for the 27-year-old.

 

Parry is angered by the fact that the spotlight has been shone upon him and privately admits it is now difficult to imagine how his relationship with the manager can be repaired unless an apology is forthcoming at the very least.

 

The pair – who should be working hand in hand if the club is to function properly – are now poles apart and there is precious little sign of a rapprochement, particularly while Benitez simmers with indignation over his belief that Parry has too much say on football matters.

 

THE OWNERS . . .

 

NEITHER Tom Hicks nor George Gillett have gone public on the ongoing Gareth Barry situation despite the continuing fallout.

 

But privately, Gillett is fuming that Rafa Benitez has chosen to make his displeasure public about Barry not being a Liverpool player.

 

The American businessman and his son Foster were heavily involved in the bid to bring Barry to Anfield and believe the Reds boss has since overstepped the mark.

 

Hicks' position on the matter is less clear with Benitez having told the media at the weekend that the Texan has told him the money is in place to sign Barry despite the fact that no further offer for the player is imminent.

 

Significantly, Hicks and Gillett chose not to put their names to an official club statement insisting the £18m asking price for Barry was too high, preferring to leave it to go out in Parry’s name.

 

In effect, Parry was handed a smoking gun, in all likelihood because the owners feared any perceived lack of backing for Benitez would have a negative effect on their already negligible popularity among Liverpool's fans.

 

BENITEZ TO WALK AWAY?...

 

DESPITE reports suggesting that the Reds boss had considered his position, resignation was never a serious possibility.

 

As well as the myriad of reasons given by Benitez in his denial of the stories, there are two other key factors which need to be taken into account.

 

Firstly, the days of top managers giving up on contracts which plough millions of pounds into their bank accounts every single year over a point of principle appear to be long gone.

 

Secondly, and more importantly, there is no chance of Benitez walking away while at loggerheads with Rick Parry as he would feel he had suffered a very public loss of face.

 

His frustration at the failure to sign Gareth Barry is there for all to see and there have been times during the past 10 days when it has even turned to exasperation but quitting has not been a consideration.

 

Conspiracy theorists have pointed to the fact that the "Benitez on brink of Liverpool exit" story first appeared on the home page of Spanish journalist Guillem Balague as evidence that the Reds boss had pulled a stunt to alert the world to how frustrated he had become.

 

But even his biggest critics agree that if this was the case, the timing was awful as not only did the story appear less than 24 hours before Liverpool's first game of the season, it also meant that Benitez's attempts to turn the spotlight on Parry at the pre-match press conference was rendered instantly futile.

 

Balague is a hugely respected journalist with excellent contacts throughout football and he stands by his story that Benitez had thought about quitting.

 

What is beyond doubt is that, even if this was the case, it was never a serious consideration.

 

BARRY AND ALONSO . . .

 

TO put it bluntly, if Rafa Benitez had had his way Gareth Barry would now be a Liverpool player and Xabi Alonso wouldn't.

 

The Reds boss was more than willing to sacrifice Alonso – and belatedly told him so – if it meant Liverpool would then be in a position to sign Barry.

 

But as the Barry deal dragged on without being concluded and Liverpool did not receive the big offers for Alonso which Benitez had hoped for, an unhealthy impasse was created which is still to be resolved.

 

The relationship between Benitez and Alonso has deteriorated, to the point where the pair had a bust up in the build up to the Champions League qualifier against Standard Liege.

 

Having previously been settled at Anfield, Alonso is now adamant he has to leave after learning that his manager no longer values him as highly as he once did.

 

The problem is, Liverpool have not had an offer which would allow them to do business and grant Alonso – and Benitez for that matter – his wish.

 

Both Juventus and Arsenal have expressed an interest but the figures mentioned by both clubs came nowhere near to meeting Liverpool's expectations.

 

The situation is complicated still further by the fact that the deal which brought Alonso to Anfield saw Liverpool guarantee his former club Real Sociedad 6m euros if he was sold for 16m euros or less.

 

Anything above that and a 20% sell on clause kicks in, making it almost impossible for Liverpool to sell Alonso for 16m euros or less and still claim to have done good business.

 

Meanwhile, Benitez remains desperate to sign Barry before the transfer window closes but, despite claims from the Reds boss that he has been assured by Tom Hicks that the necessary finance is in place, it is unclear as to whether or not this is the case.

[Brownie]

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. But I think it's worth reiterating that I've not actually seen very much evidence of Rafa "throwing his toys out of the pram" over the collapse of the Barry transfer - when he has publicly been made to look a cock over it, and when it has obviously disrupted the plans he'd put into place for this season.

 

After all, it wasn't the manager using the official site to make embarrassing statements about the deal (or lack of it) - and it hasn't been the manager acting as Bascombe's source in the NotW.

 

As I've said elsewhere, I think we need to recognise there's different stakes involved for different players here - and also that I still find it very difficult to take our official reasons for not completing the Barry deal at face value when we spent £20 million on Robbie Keane.

 

We sold Crouch and needed a striker, so that's why we bought Keane. We haven't sold a central midfielder - can't you see that, Danny?

[Hamma]

There have been some good points raised on Barry's valuation. For some time now, the market for English players has been severely inflated regardless of whether we agree or disagree on the valuation. We have seen much evidence, more recently with the case of Bentley and it appears that this will continue.

 

Despite how we feel about these prices, this changes nothing; after all, we're not talking about a stock price which may crash or even a car which depreciates in the longer term. Like it or not, these are the conditions in which the market operates and the club either accepts this, continues to purchase lesser quality players or buy foreign.

[Red Nick]

Why cant people just say they have lost faith in Rafa as a manager, personally Id have much more respect for their poiint of views then.

 

I dont agree with ATK but I do respect his right to have a different view, the interesting thing of late is that there are a lot of people on the edge and if Rafa lost 3 games on the Bounce theyd soon come out of the woodwork.

 

My biggest fear is that Rafa leaves LFC with some of us wondering IF things might have been different.

[Moschops II]

And what are you doing about it then?

 

Not contributing to the slow but steady erosion of support for the manager on messageboards, in pubs and at games that will ultimately make it easier for him to be levered out of his job while leaving Parry in his.

 

And boycotting squirty flowers.

[Anubis]

Why cant people just say they have lost faith in Rafa as a manager, personally Id have much more respect for their poiint of views then.

Who are you referring to? I haven't lost faith in him. I'm presuming many others haven't either.

[Brownie]

Not contributing to the slow but steady erosion of support for the manager on messageboards, in pubs and at games that will ultimately make it easier for him to be levered out of his job while leaving Parry in his.

 

And boycotting squirty flowers.

 

Rafa will only be levered out of his job due to results and performances. You could argue that not signing Barry would contribute to that but i'm sure you know that I would disagree.

 

That piece from Barrett there is interesting. It indicates what a few people have been saying, that Alonso is key in the Barry deal.

[Guest TK-421]

as has been said by loads of posters on this thread, it's just not that simple is it? it's not just a matter of rafa beibng a yes man or not. he said he wanted barry. he said he'd get him for 12m and sell alonso. the price is 18m and we still have alonso on the books. if we're just going to give rafa everything he wants paying any stupid amount of money and having a european food mountain of central midfielders, he's at the wrong club and he needs to pack up and go to madrid or chelsea.

 

I've said more than enough on this thread but for me - yes, it is that simple. If Rafa wants Barry more than any other player and thinks that on balance he's worth it for the improvement it would make to the team then let him get on with it.

 

I agree with your last sentence by the way, it's not my opinion but if the owners share your views they should sack the manager.

[Brownie]

Who are you referring to? I haven't lost faith in him. I'm presuming many others haven't either.

 

He's getting at me there without a doubt, but Nick wouldn't know his arse from his elbow anyway bless him so it's not much of an issue!

[Red Nick]

We sold Crouch and needed a striker, so that's why we bought Keane. We haven't sold a central midfielder - can't you see that, Danny?

 

 

We sold Crouch but we didnt need to replace him with another striker and exactly the same we could have sold Xabi and didnt need to replace him with another midfielder.

 

Babel, Kuyt and Nemeth was plenty of cover for Torres especially if Rafa wanted to play the system from end of last season and that money would have been better spent on a creative midfield player IMO. However Rafa feels differently and as the manager has to be supported especially if he wants change of formation and style of play.

[Moschops II]

We sold Crouch and needed a striker, so that's why we bought Keane. We haven't sold a central midfielder - can't you see that, Danny?

 

If it was as simple as us needing a replacement for Crouch, then what we needed was a striker to play back-up for Torres, coming off the bench and playing in the cups. Therefore we didn't need to spend £20 million.

 

In football terms, I don't think bringing in Barry when we've got Alonso still on the books makes a lot of sense, but I don't see how signing Keane does either - spending huge amounts of money on a player of 28 who to accommodate in the team we either have to play out of position or disrupt a formation that was working excellently last season.

 

And yet one of those deals went through in a matter of days, and another seems to have collapsed after four months of fannying about.

 

If someone had said to me in May that the two major deals the club would

be involved in this summer would be buying Barry without selling Xabi and spending 20 million on Keane, I'd have said they were both as baffling as each other. But one of them helps keep the fans onside, doesn't it?

[Juan Galonso]

Why cant people just say they have lost faith in Rafa as a manager, personally Id have much more respect for their poiint of views then.

 

I dont agree with ATK but I do respect his right to have a different view, the interesting thing of late is that there are a lot of people on the edge and if Rafa lost 3 games on the Bounce theyd soon come out of the woodwork.

 

My biggest fear is that Rafa leaves LFC with some of us wondering IF things might have been different.

 

Am I one of the people that is aimed at Nick? If so Where have I said I want Benitez sacked or replaced. I said on another thread I wouldn't shed as many tears on here if he did leave but I am not exactly 'at the point of no return' as such. I just wish he would grow up a little and just get on with being the good manager he undoubtedly is. I haven't lost faith in him as a manager although some of his decisions are becoming scarily Houllier like but that isn't the main issue. I don't trust or like Rafa at the moment and that goes a long way. A manager can be a good or bad manager and Rafa is a good one but I don't trust him anymore than I trust Parry Gillett or Hicks at the moment. I feel sad about that but that is how I feel at present.

 

I wanted Houllier out for good when we lost at Portsmouth in the league 03-04 and I was actually going to games wanting us to lose and I remember saying if he had stayed for 04-05 I wouldnt have gone back until he was replaced because I was scared Parry and Moores would be happy with 4th place again and that would be enough to keep him in the job. Luckily it wasn't and we got Benitez in and I am thankful we did and winning the European Cup with some of Houlliers misfits is as fine an achievement from any Liverpool manager as there ever has been.

 

I just don't agree with the way he is carrying on at the moment. I went to the Paisley memorial on Saturday and it made me think of the way our present manager is carrying on and it wasn't a pleasant feeling. I miss the 'old' Benitez from 04-05. He gets his lackeys to print stories about him thinking of quitting becaused he was pissed off with the reception Alonso got at the Lazio game. Is that really acceptable behaviour from a Liverpool manager. Like I say the next time he does that and stories come out about him wanting to quit the owners should call is bluff.

Edited August 21, 2008 by John Gallagher

[Brownie]

If it was as simple as us needing a replacement for Crouch, then what we needed was a striker to play back-up for Torres, coming off the bench and playing in the cups. Therefore we didn't need to spend £20 million.

 

In football terms, I don't think bringing in Barry when we've got Alonso still on the books makes a lot of sense, but I don't see how signing Keane does either - spending huge amounts of money on a player of 28 who to accommodate in the team we either have to play out of position or disrupt a formation that was working excellently last season.

 

And yet one of those deals went through in a matter of days, and another seems to have collapsed after four months of fannying about.

 

If someone had said to me in May that the two major deals the club would

be involved in this summer would be buying Barry without selling Xabi and spending 20 million on Keane, I'd have said they were both as baffling as each other. But one of them helps keep the fans onside, doesn't it?

 

I think you're being a bit paranoid about it myself. I can see what you're saying but I don't subscribe to that view.

 

I agree about the Keane signing and have said elsewhere that the more I think about it, the more I don't agree with it. You're basically saying that you don't agree with the signing of Keane or Barry, or did I misunderstand?