AUDIO RELEASED:

[Razoray]

2 hours ago, Scott_M said:

They did review it. VDV got enough of the ball. 

In their opinion, maybe.

Gomez won the ball and van de Ven went through him to get a minor touch on the ball. Is this not why Van Dijk was penalised a few weeks ago? And the one on Gomez was a helluva lot clumsier

[an tha]

9 minutes ago, Lario said:

Watching SSN and the var shitshow is the 4th headline, behind United Losing, Arsenal losing, and Saka being injured.

 

It isn't all bad news then....

[gkmacca]

And first out of the blocks in the shut the controversy down stakes is Ollie Holt: 'There was no smoking gun, no evidence of conspiracy, no sign of subterfuge, just officials talking at crossed purposes until the game restarted and England suddenly came to the panicked realisation that he had made an awful mistake. It was old-fashioned human error. Human error on a monumental scale."

 

He even mentioned nuts who talk about faked moon landings. The desperation to explain the whole thing away is pathetic.

 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12590355/OLIVER-HOLT-no-smoking-gun-evidence-conspiracy-VAR-audio-Luis-Diazs-wrongly-disallowed-goal-sounded-far-like-modern-day-cock-up.html

[Leyton388]

I can't even be bothered to listen to it. It tells us nothing we didn't already know. The premier League need to get together give the PGMOL their notice and go and hire the best officals from around europe. 

 

 

[gkmacca]

The next time British refs are at Anfield I hope they get the most almighty hostile reception they have to go straight back off to change their shorts.

[RedHeadedRed]

The "can't do anything" is so casual and almost dismissive, it's like saying what do you want from me? 

They must have been watching something else, was it bring your kids to work day or something how distracted were they?

[gkmacca]

There has to be a next stage. That's what the club needs to do. It doesn't make sense taking on the PGMOL and then sloping away. If you start it, see it through. Now dig out every single clip of all the other cock-ups and make them squirm their way through them. Make them answer every single question. YouTube channels have already done something like it; we have a huge video analysis team - they can compile a devastating show reel of incompetence. These refs are servants of the game, not the sovereigns. They need dragging back to sanity.

[Chris]

2 hours ago, halewood pete said:

 

I think this might be the funniest tweet I've ever seen.

[Mil-ing Around]

In my younger days, every place I worked at, I'd find holes in the work system and ways to beat it. We've all done it, ways to skive, get a few minutes off here and there etc etc. I even know people who worked for banks and took them for £1000's and never got caught. Every work system and protocol has holes and faults. 

 

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Darren England was fully aware that giving a call out like "check complete" would and could result in a moment like this?

 

He has been doing VAR long enough to know it's weaknesses and faults.

 

A situation where he knew, with the confusing terminology used, it could be taken the wrong way. He knew once the game restarted the decision would stick.

 

I thought the same as @an tha. There is something not right in his tone of voice. Is it him that says "pardon" after being told to delay delay? That sounded so wrong to me. Just the way he said it.  Also the fact he was so quick to say "can't do nothing now it's started" was very strange. 

 

When you make a monumental fuck up you freeze, you aren't so quick to make a decision like that. Or atleast you'd try and rectify it or think of a solution. It's strange that his immediate response was "can't do anything, lets move on". You just don't react like that in a massive fuck up moment.

 

I'm not one for conspiracy theory but it's very strange how he reacted, how quickly he reacted, how quickly he knew the exact rule that would mean the game could not be stopped again. All after a jolly up with Man city's owners other club. 

[Barrington Womble]

17 minutes ago, Mil-ing Around said:

In my younger days, every place I worked at, I'd find holes in the work system and ways to beat it. We've all done it, ways to skive, get a few minutes off here and there etc etc. I even know people who worked for banks and took them for £1000's and never got caught. Every work system and protocol has holes and faults. 

 

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Darren England was fully aware that giving a call out like "check complete" would and could result in a moment like this?

 

He has been doing VAR long enough to know it's weaknesses and faults.

 

A situation where he knew, with the confusing terminology used, it could be taken the wrong way. He knew once the game restarted the decision would stick.

 

I thought the same as @an tha. There is something not right in his tone of voice. Is it him that says "pardon" after being told to delay delay? That sounded so wrong to me. Just the way he said it.  Also the fact he was so quick to say "can't do nothing now it's started" was very strange. 

 

When you make a monumental fuck up you freeze, you aren't so quick to make a decision like that. Or atleast you'd try and rectify it or think of a solution. It's strange that his immediate response was "can't do anything, lets move on". You just don't react like that in a massive fuck up moment.

 

I'm not one for conspiracy theory but it's very strange how he reacted, how quickly he reacted, how quickly he knew the exact rule that would mean the game could not be stopped again. All after a jolly up with Man city's owners other club. 

I agree..and it's also important to note it does not match the narrative PGMOL leaked to the media at the weekend where the VAR was supposed to say "check complete, confirm the onfield decision". He clearly never confirms the onfield decision. He just says something like "that's perfect" and someone else says "off" and the ref whistles to restart - and before the ball is touched by a 2nd spurs player, Oli has called them out!  All the VAR does is say is his check complete. There's no discussion at all about which way his decision went. Corrupt as you'll see. They know they're mic'ed up. They're not going to say "fuck those scouse cunts" are they? 

[Red Shift]

23 minutes ago, Mil-ing Around said:

In my younger days, every place I worked at, I'd find holes in the work system and ways to beat it. We've all done it, ways to skive, get a few minutes off here and there etc etc. I even know people who worked for banks and took them for £1000's and never got caught. Every work system and protocol has holes and faults. 

 

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Darren England was fully aware that giving a call out like "check complete" would and could result in a moment like this?

 

He has been doing VAR long enough to know it's weaknesses and faults.

 

A situation where he knew, with the confusing terminology used, it could be taken the wrong way. He knew once the game restarted the decision would stick.

 

I thought the same as @an tha. There is something not right in his tone of voice. Is it him that says "pardon" after being told to delay delay? That sounded so wrong to me. Just the way he said it.  Also the fact he was so quick to say "can't do nothing now it's started" was very strange. 

 

When you make a monumental fuck up you freeze, you aren't so quick to make a decision like that. Or atleast you'd try and rectify it or think of a solution. It's strange that his immediate response was "can't do anything, lets move on". You just don't react like that in a massive fuck up moment.

 

I'm not one for conspiracy theory but it's very strange how he reacted, how quickly he reacted, how quickly he knew the exact rule that would mean the game could not be stopped again. All after a jolly up with Man city's owners other club. 

they may well have lingered too long to then be able to intervene (the rules are clear) but was the lingering intentional? I don’t think so. The expletives indicate otherwise.

[an tha]

23 minutes ago, Mil-ing Around said:

In my younger days, every place I worked at, I'd find holes in the work system and ways to beat it. We've all done it, ways to skive, get a few minutes off here and there etc etc. I even know people who worked for banks and took them for £1000's and never got caught. Every work system and protocol has holes and faults. 

 

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Darren England was fully aware that giving a call out like "check complete" would and could result in a moment like this?

 

He has been doing VAR long enough to know it's weaknesses and faults.

 

A situation where he knew, with the confusing terminology used, it could be taken the wrong way. He knew once the game restarted the decision would stick.

 

I thought the same as @an tha. There is something not right in his tone of voice. Is it him that says "pardon" after being told to delay delay? That sounded so wrong to me. Just the way he said it.  Also the fact he was so quick to say "can't do nothing now it's started" was very strange. 

 

When you make a monumental fuck up you freeze, you aren't so quick to make a decision like that. Or atleast you'd try and rectify it or think of a solution. It's strange that his immediate response was "can't do anything, lets move on". You just don't react like that in a massive fuck up moment.

 

I'm not one for conspiracy theory but it's very strange how he reacted, how quickly he reacted, how quickly he knew the exact rule that would mean the game could not be stopped again. All after a jolly up with Man city's owners other club. 

Yeah his reaction in my view was like when you know have been caught out and you say something like 'what' or 'eh' as a stalling tactic....

 

[an tha]

54 minutes ago, gkmacca said:

There has to be a next stage. That's what the club needs to do. It doesn't make sense taking on the PGMOL and then sloping away. If you start it, see it through. Now dig out every single clip of all the other cock-ups and make them squirm their way through them. Make them answer every single question. YouTube channels have already done something like it; we have a huge video analysis team - they can compile a devastating show reel of incompetence. These refs are servants of the game, not the sovereigns. They need dragging back to sanity.

Problem is PGMOL have now in their eyes dealt with it and that seems to be it. I didn't realise they had put out a statement and have concluded their review already!

 

Cracks papered over, bare minimum to pay lip service promised - and no frigging apology either.

 

A statement issued by the referees' body read:

 

"PGMOL can confirm that we have carried out a review into the circumstances which led to the Luis Diaz goal being incorrectly disallowed for offside in the Premier League match between Tottenham Hotspur FC and Liverpool FC.

 

"We recognise standards fell short of expectations and acknowledged the error to Liverpool immediately after the conclusion of the fixture.

 

"A detailed report, including the key learnings and immediate actions taken, alongside the audio between the on-field officials and VAR team has been submitted to the Premier League, who have shared it with Liverpool FC and subsequently all other Premier League Clubs.

 

"The review of the on-field and VAR decision-making processes and application of the decision-making principles has identified the following key learnings to mitigate against the risk of a future error:

 

- Guidance to Video Match Officials has always emphasised the need for efficiency, but never at the expense of accuracy. This principle will be clearly reiterated.

 

- A new VAR communication protocol will be developed to enhance the clarity of communication between the referee and the VAR team in relation to on-field decisions.

 

- As an additional step to the process, the VAR will confirm the outcome of the VAR check process with the AVAR before confirming the final decision to the on-field officials.

 

"PGMOL are committed to enhancing VAR performance through a new training programme which started this season and focuses on process and best practice for all VARs, AVARs and Replay Operators in their specific roles. While we have a number of FIFA-recognised VARs, work is ongoing to create a dedicated pool of VAR specialists.

 

"The VAR and AVAR in question were removed from their remaining fixtures in Match Round 7 in the Premier League and have not been included in the appointments for Match Round 8 this weekend.

 

"PGMOL and The FA have also agreed to review the policy to allow match officials to officiate matches outside of FIFA or UEFA appointments."

[Doc Pheezin]

I have worked in-stadia production for every major international sport played here. Including cricket, rugby and football (thankfully without VAR). The process for VAR is insane, I don’t understand why it doesn’t exactly mirror cricket or rugby which have been doing it for far longer. 
the comms are essentially always open, and what’s shown on tv/the venue is directed. The audio is fed out to everyone, and there is a script/procedure that has to be followed before the Onfield refs/umpires can do anything.

Keeping it opaque as they insist on doing in football just makes it look fucking dodgy. It’s actually fucking mental

Why the fuck have they got the arrogance to invent their own system for reviews when other sports have implemented them and spent years fuckin about with them to get them better? 

[Barrington Womble]

18 minutes ago, Red Shift said:

they may well have lingered too long to then be able to intervene (the rules are clear) but was the lingering intentional? I don’t think so. The expletives indicate otherwise.

 

Of course the lingering was deliberate. The ball hadn't reached the 2nd spurs player from the restart..if the ref blows then for whatever reason he wants, like he wasn't ready. Nobody cares and he sorts it out. But they didn't want to sort it out. 

 

9 minutes ago, an tha said:

Problem is PGMOL have now in their eyes dealt with it and that seems to be it. I didn't realise they had put out a statement and have concluded their review already!

 

Cracks papered over, bare minimum to pay lip service promised - and no frigging apology either.

 

A statement issued by the referees' body read:

 

"PGMOL can confirm that we have carried out a review into the circumstances which led to the Luis Diaz goal being incorrectly disallowed for offside in the Premier League match between Tottenham Hotspur FC and Liverpool FC.

 

"We recognise standards fell short of expectations and acknowledged the error to Liverpool immediately after the conclusion of the fixture.

 

"A detailed report, including the key learnings and immediate actions taken, alongside the audio between the on-field officials and VAR team has been submitted to the Premier League, who have shared it with Liverpool FC and subsequently all other Premier League Clubs.

 

"The review of the on-field and VAR decision-making processes and application of the decision-making principles has identified the following key learnings to mitigate against the risk of a future error:

 

- Guidance to Video Match Officials has always emphasised the need for efficiency, but never at the expense of accuracy. This principle will be clearly reiterated.

 

- A new VAR communication protocol will be developed to enhance the clarity of communication between the referee and the VAR team in relation to on-field decisions.

 

- As an additional step to the process, the VAR will confirm the outcome of the VAR check process with the AVAR before confirming the final decision to the on-field officials.

 

"PGMOL are committed to enhancing VAR performance through a new training programme which started this season and focuses on process and best practice for all VARs, AVARs and Replay Operators in their specific roles. While we have a number of FIFA-recognised VARs, work is ongoing to create a dedicated pool of VAR specialists.

 

"The VAR and AVAR in question were removed from their remaining fixtures in Match Round 7 in the Premier League and have not been included in the appointments for Match Round 8 this weekend.

 

"PGMOL and The FA have also agreed to review the policy to allow match officials to officiate matches outside of FIFA or UEFA appointments."

 

So it seems to me they're saying the issue sits with protocols, but at the end throw the refs under the bus? No repercussions for the man at the top who thought this was good? For me this is the equivalent of the whole farage/couts thing when ultimately how their protocols were applied were sufficiently bad, the CEO had to be removed. 

 

And as for that final paragraph, what is there to review? Stop it now. And if there's reason to bring it back, justify it, rule out owners of football clubs in our league and ensure a sufficient break on the refs return. But best of all just stop it. 

[an tha]

3 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

 

Of course the lingering was deliberate. The ball hadn't reached the 2nd spurs player from the restart..if the ref blows then for whatever reason he wants, like he wasn't ready. Nobody cares and he sorts it out. But they didn't want to sort it out. 

 

 

So it seems to me they're saying the issue sits with protocols, but at the end throw the refs under the bus? No repercussions for the man at the top who thought this was good? For me this is the equivalent of the whole farage/couts thing when ultimately how their protocols were applied were sufficiently bad, the CEO had to be removed. 

 

And as for that final paragraph, what is there to review? Stop it now. And if there's reason to bring it back, justify it, rule out owners of football clubs in our league and ensure a sufficient break on the refs return. But best of all just stop it. 

They are a mess and the lack of proper standards, consistency, procedures and standardisation is typical of their approach, their arrogance and their lack of self awareness.

 

The review and actions are a hastily cobbled together lip service.

 

They even spend a good chunk of the release that included the above statement pointing out how correctly their officials had acted doing the check - as if they have to prove some sort of point about competence....cunts 

 

Get on this:

 

As with all goal situations, the VAR team checked every aspect of the goal. After the on-field officials had disallowed the goal for offside, the checking phase and process started and was carried out correctly by the VAR. The kick-point selection was accurate and the use of a single 2D line on the foot of the second rear-most defender was also correctly positioned.

 

 

"The image created showed that Luis Diaz was clearly onside, without the need for the insertion of a second line. In a lapse of concentration and loss of focus in that moment, the VAR lost sight of the on-field decision and he incorrectly communicated “check complete”, therefore inadvertently confirming the on-field decision. He did this without any dialogue with the AVAR [Assistant VAR].

 

"The match then restarted immediately. After a few seconds, the Replay Operator and then the AVAR queried the check-complete outcome with the VAR and asked him to review the image that had been created, pointing out that the original on-field decision had been offside, but this was not communicated to the on-field team at any point during the match.

 

 

The VAR team then gave consideration as to whether the game could be stopped at that point, however the VAR and AVAR concluded that the VAR protocol within the Laws of the Game would not permit that to happen, and they decided intervention was not possible as play had restarted.

 

[Fallen Angel]

5 hours ago, an tha said:

Listened to it 3 times now and something really strikes me....

 

There is something IMO wrong with the tone of Darren England....He does not come across as arsed in the slightest.

 

If you had fucked up big style especially knowing the magnitude of it and how much it will be in the spotlight IMO your reaction would be a lot different. He almost sounded deliberately defensive to me, like he knew he was cheating us and had been caught out by the other feller - but was then downplaying it and just wanting it over.

At best, he just wasn’t arsed he had made a massive and high profile error - at worst he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

It was not the reaction of a man who had suddenly been told there was a massive fuck up he was at fault for.

This. Anyone expecting them to openly discus anything that could get them in hot water is mistaken. What you would get, with an agenda at play, is bumbling-morons incapable of making a call until it’s too late and ‘can’t do anything’. 
 

It’s a moot point regardless - they are either corrupt and hence unfit for purpose, or so ridiculously incompetent that they are unfit for purpose. 
 

Get rid of the all until they’ve learned to play nicely with their new toys. 

[Lee909]

Stigs boy took a hell of a beating

[DalyanPete]

9 hours ago, Paulie Dangerously said:

I'd painted the wrong room. 

 

Fucking hell, you had one job!

Funny as fuck mate. 

[DalyanPete]

Its fucking Wednesday and im still not over it!

 

[Scott_M]

7 hours ago, Razoray said:

In their opinion, maybe.

Gomez won the ball and van de Ven went through him to get a minor touch on the ball. Is this not why Van Dijk was penalised a few weeks ago? And the one on Gomez was a helluva lot clumsier

As much as I hate to admit it, I agree with the VAR on both incidents.
 

VDV just about got enough of the ball and then caught Gomez. 
 

The VVD one was different, he caught Isak and then the ball. 
 

Our opinions are our opinions, the rules needs to be applied. By the rules, correct calls were made.

[Scott_M]

2 hours ago, DalyanPete said:

Its fucking Wednesday and im still not over it!

 

It’s alright, think of the Nunez goals at Newcastle. I’m still smiling over that.

[DalyanPete]

20 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

It’s alright, think of the Nunez goals at Newcastle. I’m still smiling over that.

Well yes, some things are easier to wank too.

I'm struggling with this other shit though.

[s(k)aturation]

 

Putting corruption to one side, one thing that has to change as a result of that transcript/audio - and it will overcome even the most virulent of "biases" against LFC - is that they simply can't afford to look that stupid ever again.

 

Regardless of how much they want to fuck anyone over - and even if they were simply "pretending" to make errors, just to fuck us over - they simply can't be exposed like that again.

 

They can't say "gross human error" again, because if someone asks for the audio and we hear that shit again, they're fucked.

 

Something must change - which means if they have got it in for us - they're going to have to find another way.

 

I think it's best we just move on now, and keep winning games.

 

It will be hard to fuck us over if we're putting 3-5 goals past someone as often as possible.

 

[CapeRed]

8 hours ago, an tha said:

I must have had a freebie...

 

Paywall still there?Try archive.today

The VAR release is remarkable - Darren England hid behind the laws instead of doing the right thing

Choosing not to review the blatantly wrong Var decision goes against the spirit of the game

KEITH HACKETT3 October 2023 • 8:51pm

 

 

It was remarkable to listen to the audio release of the Var conversations that took place during Liverpool’s defeat to Tottenham on Saturday. The staggering incompetence was laid bare for everyone to see and hear - it’s a terrible look for everyone involved, not least the PGMOL and Darren England, the Var at the centre of the controversy.

I can guarantee to you that if this conversation was played over the tannoy systems around Premier League grounds across the country, this type of mistake would never be made again. There would have been riots had fans heard what was going on at Tottenham’s stadium. If officials knew that their conversations would be made public, live, then that would focus the minds completely and you can be sure no errors like this would be made.

 

It comes down to protocol, once again. It is clear that there is no protocol in place for dealing with these types of situations - something as simple as a tick box system should be used to ensure people know what they’re looking for, or at. Is this a check for offside? Is this a check for a red card? What is the referee’s on field decision? Lay it out in simple terms.

 

When Howard Webb’s first show came out that released recordings of past incidents, it was evident to me that it was a load of garbage to be honest with you. The conversations were so garbled, and it just felt so confused. I didn’t even see the need for lines to be drawn on this one, as it was so clear Luis Diaz was onside.

 

Honestly, I could not believe what I was listening to when the PGMOL released what happened - it’s a good thing they have done this, but ultimately it shines a light on how incompetent the decision making is, and it will only serve to stoke the flames among supporters who feel aggrieved at such decision making. Now you’ve listened to that excerpt, you are bound to start wondering what similarly garbage conversations have happened with other incidents.

 

Fans already have a great amount of suspicion around referees, Var and their ability to make the right decisions - this will only make things worse, given the content in the audio release.

Luis Diaz (right) is incorrectly ruled as offside by Var Darren England

I was staggered by the level of communication on show in the short clip released on Tuesday night. There was no joined-up thinking, clarity of thought or any sort of collaborative approach. It appeared people were passing the buck until it all dawned on them what happened, and how they could not - or did not want to - rectify it.

 

As a former official of course I had some sympathy with England, especially when it dawned on him the gravity of his error when he is captured on audio saying “Oh f---“. It’s likely to be the worst decision he has ever made and nobody, whether a former referee or a fan of the game, wants to see people make such grave errors of judgement.

 

One of the key takeaways I had around the audio release was the notion among all the guilty parties that they “couldn’t do anything.”

The replay operator, Oli Kohout, tells the team to “delay.”

“Pardon?” came the response, as if this was such an alien concept to deliver.

“Can’t do anything,” says England as Var. I am not going to hide behind the laws of the game here, which state that if play has been restarted (which it had) then it could not be called back to resolve the error.

 

England clearly is applying the laws of the game here, but that is just the wrong thing to do in this instance. There is the laws of the game and then there is context, the spirit of the game, and doing the right thing. The right thing would be to resolve the situation and correct this most basic of errors.

 

Blindingly claiming you cannot do anything because the laws said so is another strand to the mess.

 

One of my overriding emotions from the release of the audio, though, is one of disappointment. Once again the standard of refereeing and Var in this country has proven to be not up to scratch and this is on Howard Webb to sort out, as this is the biggest crisis of officialdom I can remember.

Thanks . Always liked Hackett. Many years ago ,when I decided to ref on Sundays, I went to a refs night where he was speaking. Aside from some stories the one thing he pressed home was the use of common sense when applying the laws of the game and how in certain situations you don’t comply with the recommendations because it doesn’t ruin the game or cause further problems. I am still mystified as to why Hooper was not clear in communicating with the VAR team ? Simply saying “Lads the goal has been called offside and let me know if it was on or offside” would have resolved anything.