Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[The Guest]

Strangely as well I’m sure I said that it’s an objective of Corbyn and Momentum which would be brilliant for democracy. Just because the current way they do managed to get Liverpool somebody who appears to be left wing doesn’t make the process right. But don’t let that stop your rambling shite SD.

 

As others have said when the snap election happened there was hardly enough time to give the CLP a chance to vote properly. The NEC was still controlled by the right of the party and as I mentioned which you conveniently cut out of your quote they wouldn’t have sanctioned mandatory selections and it’s not something that will happen overnight even though the left of the party clearly want it.

[Strontium]

All I can say is, we had exactly the same notice of the election as everyone else, and we still managed to put our candidate selection in Wallasey to a ballot of the local members, and that was with a fraction of the manpower available to the larger parties.

 

Not that I particularly care how Labour select their candidates, but they've been parachuting preferred candidates into safe seats for the best part of a century, it happened in 1945 when my own grandfather was "persuaded to step aside" as the left-wing candidate for St Helens so they could anoint the centrist Hartley Shawcross as MP instead. I guess we'll see how real the democratic reforms are next time, won't we.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

So, you're shoulder-to-shoulder with Momentum on this issue?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Not read this yet; it's an interview with Corbyn about all this anti-Semitism shenanigans.

 

http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/exclusive-corbyn-interview/

[ZonkoVille77]

Bollocks that interview. Trying to put words in his mouth at every opportunity. When Corbyn was clearly implying that Dianne Abbott was subject to racist abuse, reporter basically said 'so what, I'm only interested in anti-Semitic issues'

 

Clearly only trying to catch Corbyn out, clearly not interested in what he had to say about his record of opposing abuses of any form.

[The Guest]

I’m sure there’s plenty of Jewish people that have been abused by ignorant cunts over the years. The people going out on the streets and trying to smear Corbyn don’t give a shit about anti-semitism though in my opinion. All they are interested in is trying to undermine him by weaponising the situation because they don’t like his left wing politics. If they were really interested in tackling anti semitism they wouldn’t be trying their best to ruin labour and keeping in the most right wing govt the country has ever had in power.

 

The laughable thing about it is that right wing politics is what has traditionally kept ethnic minorities down. It’s like they are now trying to pretend that this isn’t the case whereas they used to use it as a reason to vote for the right.

 

It’s people like Corbyn and the left wing that want to make everything more equal with less discrimination. It’s probably why Jewish traditionally voted labour like most other minorities. I’d be interested to know how many unemployed, disabled and or poverty stricken Jewish people are on the board of deputies or who feel represented by them. To me it just stinks of another elite class of people who are rattled at the possibility they may end up paying more tax. The thing they’ve got in their arsenal is that they are jewish and can use it to try to undermine Labour in a way that can’t be laughed out of the park like the other cries of “abuse” which went round at the last leadership election.

 

It’s clear it’s a tactic to anyone with any brain whether left or right and it’s a sign they’re losing the argument. I specifically remember at one of the labour hustings that was televised when somebody put a question to Owen Smith. He fired back, because he didn’t like the question, “Abuse!” While everyone around looked completely bewildered. It was in that style that the maybot has made famous. He’d clearly gone in there to make sure he brought up abuse because they thought it was a good way to undermine Corbyn. It didn’t work but it hasn’t stopped them trying to use it.

 

It’s only my own personal experience and I’m not stupid enough to just assume that is the case for everyone but I do know black and Asian lads who have been racially abused and assaulted due to their ethnic background and I feel they almost certainly have been discrimated against when looking for a job when we finished university. I’ve never come across any Jewish person I know being abused or physically attacked for being Jewish and I’ve never know them to struggle for work because of their background. The whole situation just feels manufactured.

[Rico1304]

Isn't anti-Semitism the fastest growing type of hate crime?

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Communist.

 

Aspires to turn the country into places like Cuba and Venezuela.

 

Will run the country for the benefit of refugees, immigrants and Muslims.

 

A Russian stooge.

 

Doesn't believe in his policies. It's just populism.

 

An antisemite.

 

You'd be forgiven for thinking that these were smears used against Corbyn. But, they were also used by the French media and right wing against left leaning presidential candidate Jean-Luc Melenchon when he started to gain in the pre-election polls.

 

You don't like to buy into conspiracy theories, but the similarities do look striking enough to just be a mere coincidence?

[Strontium]

Isn't anti-Semitism the fastest growing type of hate crime?

I don't know a single Jewish person who hasn't experienced it. Not one. Anecdotally I'd say the situation was worse now than it used to be, but I haven't looked at official stats.

 

To be fair, Merseyside Police's hate crimes unit have been very good about the phone calls I've been getting these past few months.

[The Guest]

You don’t know a single Jewish person who hasn’t experienced a hate crime? I find that very hard to believe if you know many Jewish. I find anti-semitism comes in the package of either people denying the Holocaust or like that mural Corbyn is being criticised about, conspiracy theories about running the country and jokes about being rich and tight with money. They go from outrageous to irritating but personally I don’t think it compares to the type of physical and personally vile abuse people of different colour skin have and do suffer here in the UK and abroad.

 

In Liverpool I don’t know anyone who’s been assaulted or verbally abused in the street for being Jewish. Now that might be because frankly people couldn’t tell you if somebody is Jewish or not walking past them on the street. Thick racist/predujice cunts generally go for the easy targets. If all Jewish people were easily identifiable I’m sure they’d be a target but I really doubt that the current furore is anything more than weaponised McCarthyism being used against the left.

[Boss]

Isn't anti-Semitism the fastest growing type of hate crime?

 

No, I think it's Ed Sheeran.

[Strontium]

I am sure that the more visible minorities get more attention in public, and for the most part those of us with Jewish heritage go largely unnoticed. However I don't think it's helpful to downplay the very real experiences of anti-semitism that people endure because of that. Abuse is still pretty shit if it's a crank phoning you up at home rather than doing it in public.

[Anubis]

According to the FBI in the US it's anti-White crime.

 

The last set of figures I could find for the UK said that the majority of hate crime is religious (albeit didn't specify a breakdown) but that the fastest growing was against the disabled. Those were 16/17.

[skend04]

According to the FBI in the US it's anti-White crime.

 

The last set of figures I could find for the UK said that the majority of hate crime is religious (albeit didn't specify a breakdown) but that the fastest growing was against the disabled. Those were 16/17.

Yep, and against transgender people too.

[Anubis]

Yep, and against transgender people too.

Sorry, yes, transgender as well.

[Rico1304]

Oh, little Owen has spoken

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/28/antisemitism-open-your-eyes-jeremy-corbyn-labour

[The Guest]

I don’t mean to down play it. If somebody is ringing you up and giving you shit about your religious beliefs or heritage then that’s obviously as equally as bad as abuse somebody gets in the street. It’s all bad. I think there’s no difference in that than me going into work in Manchester and getting called a bindipper with arse holes coming over to me on a weekly basis putting on exaggerated scouse accents and making jokes about me robbing stuff off people’s desks.

 

There is a difference in that to people actually being physically assaulted and not having the same opportunities white people have because you happen to have a different skin colour. It might just be my own personal biased view on it because I’m left leaning and a massive Corbyn/Momentum fan but the anti-Semitic abuse that is being talked about is no bigger problem than the problem of general abuse that goes on in society.

[Rico1304]

Jesus.

[Boss]

In fairness, the Jewish community have a right to be highly sensitive about these matters. They were almost annihilated as a species a little more than half a century ago. You can understand why they are, the way they are about it.

 

I just think there's a big difference between anti-Israel sentiment and anti-Jewish sentiment. The two are often conflated for the purpose of petty political point scoring when they aren't the same thing. Anti-Jewish sentiment seems to be almost exclusively peddled by the Alt Right and it's affiliated parties, whereas anti Israel rhetoric is a natural consequence of a polar opposite ideology.

 

I mean, why would a left wing, secular, anti war, open borders advocating party champion a right wing, theocratic, ethno-nationalist, militarised state? You wouldn't expect the Tories to champion the IRA or Trump to sing the praises of Fidel Castro, would you? 

[Neil G]

I don’t mean to down play it. If somebody is ringing you up and giving you shit about your religious beliefs or heritage then that’s obviously as equally as bad as abuse somebody gets in the street. It’s all bad. I think there’s no difference in that than me going into work in Manchester and getting called a bindipper with arse holes coming over to me on a weekly basis putting on exaggerated scouse accents and making jokes about me robbing stuff off people’s desks.

 

There is a difference in that to people actually being physically assaulted and not having the same opportunities white people have because you happen to have a different skin colour. It might just be my own personal biased view on it because I’m left leaning and a massive Corbyn/Momentum fan but the anti-Semitic abuse that is being talked about is no bigger problem than the problem of general abuse that goes on in society.

Get back to us when your Manc colleagues smash up the headstones on your relatives’ graves.

[Denny Crane]

 

FORMBY’S LIKELY ROADMAP FOR FIXING LABOUR’S DISCIPLINARY PROCESS

28/03/2018 · by SKWAWKBOX

 

 

I seen one or two state the report conducted by Chakrabarti who was at Liberty and a human rights activists report was a whitewash. This is a good summary of what changes Formby may implement and what happened. It seems like a transparent policy is rightly needed and the two year time limit seems fair and the need to address the manipulation of clps looks rightly to be addressed.

 

One of the most misleading aspects of recent uproars about the Labour Party is frustration – on the part of those making complaints and the subjects of complaints alike – about the way complaints have been handled.

 

Those accused have often found themselves suspended, without details of the accusations against them, for as long as two years, while at the other extreme some members have been suspended or expelled in what appears to be an almost summary fashion.

 

One example of the latter is Jewish member Glyn Secker, who was recently suspended – by now-departed General Secretary Iain McNicol, not by Labour’s NEC (National Executive Committe) disciplinary panel – and then reinstated, without apology, just five days later.

 

Some critics have attempted to use this unsatisfactory situation to attack Jeremy Corbyn personally – and this has led to accusations that the Labour right is cynically exploiting an important issue for factional purposes.

 

The reality is that Jeremy Corbyn, under Labour rules, has no responsibility for disciplinary issues among members. The administration of disciplinary issues was the responsibility of the (then) right-dominated Labour HQ.

 

Now new General Secretary Jennie Formby, who formally starts in the role next week, will be the one responsible for reviewing and improving all aspects of Labour’s disciplinary procedures, including the handling of antisemitism and harassment allegations.

 

Below are the first steps she is likely to take.

 

The review

 

Three weeks ago, the ‘Disputes Panel’ of Labour’s NEC confirmed its decision to conduct an urgent review of all the processes and procedures relating to antisemitism claims.

 

The key aim of this review is to ensure Labour’s processes are quick and fair, so that complainants and those accused can see their case dealt with promptly and rely on a just outcome.

 

It will also be transparent, so that those accused know properly what they are accused of and have a chance to defend themselves adequately and in accordance with principles of natural justice.

 

Training

 

Complaints abounded under McNicol of a lack of consistency and sense in the way complaints were investigated and adjudicated – and these came to a head earlier this month when Disputes Panel chair Christine Shawcroft erupted after union representatives on the panel abstained in disciplinary votes because of alleged inadequacies in the investigative reports presented to the panel.

 

Ms Formby and the panel will mandate measures to ensure that all staff dealing with complaints are properly trained. Until now, such training has been limited to staff dealing with sexual harassment cases.

 

The NCC

 

While not yet confirmed, the SKWAWKBOX understands that an urgent review is likely of all outstanding cases currently with Labour’s National Constitutional Committee (NCC), to assess the appropriateness of their handling and map out the steps needed to resolve them promptly.

 

Chakrabarti

 

The 2016 ‘Chakrabarti report’ into the Labour Party’s disciplinary rules and procedures, particularly with regard to religious or racial abuse including antisemitism, made a series of recommendations for rule and procedural changes.

 

In the almost two years since the report was published, Labour’s previous HQ regime implemented almost none of these. A change to the rule on behaviour was approved at last September’s Conference, but little else has changed – to the detriment of the party and its reputation.

 

Implementing the full recommendations of the report will be at or very near the top of Jennie Formby’s priorities.

 

The full list of recommendations can be found here, but a few of the key changes expected to be implemented as quickly as possible include:

 

the introduction of a General Counsel position – previous heads of legal and compliance have, remarkably, rarely if ever been legally qualified

recognition that the rules must be applied according to the principles of natural justice

a limitation period of two years for a complaint to be made – no more dredging up of years-old issues to use against members

a time-limit for accusations to be dealt with

the right of the accused to details of an accusation and the identity of the accuser, barring an overriding reason to withhold the information

the removal from unelected officers and from the NEC of the right to impose ‘administrative’ or ‘interim’ suspension, with its transfer to the NCC under a ‘presumption against‘ interim suspension unless there is an overriding reason for it

a time-limit of six months on any suspension of a branch or constituency party – some CLPs have been in ‘special measures for as long as twenty-five years under the previous regime

the establishment of a qualified NCC Legal Panel, with a member of the Legal Panel to be allocated to each disciplinary case referred to the NCC

 

the attendance at all disciplinary hearings of a member of the Legal Panel.

 

a right of review, on procedural and proportionality grounds, for all members suspended or expelled

 

Shami Chakrabarti has since been unjustly criticised for her report – which was broadly welcomed by all groups when it was published. But in reality, it is the failure of the previous regime to implement the recommendations of the report which has led to many of the recent problems and frustrations, whether that be among those accused or punished, or on the part of those dissatisfied with the pursuit of issues they have raised.

 

Ms Formby’s determination to get to grips with the inadequacies of existing rules and processes – which have been frankly unfit for purpose – and to implement changes that should have been made two years ago will be for the good of the Labour party, its members and those who interact with it.

 

It should be welcomed by everyone who genuinely has the best interests of the party and its members at heart.

 

https://skwawkbox.org/2018/03/28/formbys-likely-roadmap-for-fixing-labours-disciplinary-process/

[Denny Crane]

Sorry to hear you are getting shit SD no-one deserves being targeted for their ethnicity.

[Gym Beglin]

Corbyn on Twitter:

 

Yesterday Google announced its UK tax bill will be just £50 million despite nearly £6 billion of sales in our country.

 

As our public services are being slashed, the Tories are letting an elite few get away with not paying their fair share.

 

We're not broke, we're being robbed.

[Strontium]

Sorry to hear you are getting shit SD no-one deserves being targeted for their ethnicity.

Honestly, it's bothering my girlfriend more than me, and she is 100% goyim. She worries it might go further than irritating calls. I find it as much grimly amusing as anything else. No idea how they got my number, whoever it is clearly has a screw loose as they ring up mainly to take aim at relatives of mine, but nobody has a clue about any of the alleged grievances he rants on about. I don't know what it is about being Jewish, even if you are only a bit Jewish like me, it seems to bring the cranks out of the woodwork like nothing else.

[aRdja]

Honestly, it's bothering my girlfriend more than me, and she is 100% goyim. She worries it might go further than irritating calls. I find it as much grimly amusing as anything else. No idea how they got my number, whoever it is clearly has a screw loose as they ring up mainly to take aim at relatives of mine, but nobody has a clue about any of the alleged grievances he rants on about. I don't know what it is about being Jewish, even if you are only a bit Jewish like me, it seems to bring the cranks out of the woodwork like nothing else.

Maybe people associate the atrocities committed by the state of Israel with just the general jewish people whom in reality would have varying views re the occupation.