Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Anubis]

Just to add, before I'm off to court, the bot in my post above about the word 'Zionist' is not aimed at Boss or anyone in particular, but will just be a general contribution to the debate. I didn't want any misunderstandings!

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I’ve no interest in Israel at all. Not an issue I worry about. But who are ‘the Israel lobby’?

Here's a little reminder of evidence of an employee of the Israeli government conspiring to bring down British Government ministers who oppose Israel's actions in Palestine.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2018/03/28/reminder-israel-put-up-a-1000000-bounty-for-labour-insiders-to-undermine-corbyn/

[Rico1304]

Here's a little reminder of evidence of an employee of the Israeli government conspiring to bring down British Government ministers who oppose Israel's actions in Palestine.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2018/03/28/reminder-israel-put-up-a-1000000-bounty-for-labour-insiders-to-undermine-corbyn/

Ta

 

Of out today, hopefully I’ve not got my uniforms mixed up. Could be embarrassing.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Ta

 

Of out today, hopefully I’ve not got my uniforms mixed up. Could be embarrassing.

Another ridiculous and dishonest post.

 

Nobody has called you an Israel apologist, as you incorrectly claim.

 

In fact, it would be silly to do so particularly as when you first made this unfounded claim (your 8:53 post yesterday) you'd, only 3 minutes earlier, stated that "I’ve no interest in Israel at all."

 

It seems that you hold this belief of being called an Israel apologist because you jumped to implying antisemitism because you didn't fully understand what the "Israel lobby" consisted of and immediately (and incorrectly) linked it to the Jewish trope of collectives of Jews running the world. Quite surprising that you'd make such categorical conclusions particularly when, by your own admission, "I’ve no interest in Israel at all."

 

When your error was corrected, you've then ridiculously converted this action into you somehow being labelled an "Israel apologist."

 

Now that we've clarified your mistake, can we limit discussion to the subject at hand, instead of making (yet another) thread all about you and your self constructed sense of persecution, which once again stems from your steaming in and making ridiculous claims regarding a subject which, by your own admission, you have little interest in (and, apparently little knowledge of).

 

Thanks.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Happy to oblige.

Negged by the forum halfwit.

 

Oh no! How will I cope???

[Rico1304]

Negged by the forum halfwit.

 

Oh no! How will I cope???

Maybe be crying you’re being bullied.

[Rico1304]

Another ridiculous and dishonest post.

 

Nobody has called you an Israel apologist, as you incorrectly claim.

 

In fact, it would be silly to do so particularly as when you first made this unfounded claim (your 8:53 post yesterday) you'd, only 3 minutes earlier, stated that "I’ve no interest in Israel at all."

 

It seems that you hold this belief of being called an Israel apologist because you jumped to implying antisemitism because you didn't fully understand what the "Israel lobby" consisted of and immediately (and incorrectly) linked it to the Jewish trope of collectives of Jews running the world. Quite surprising that you'd make such categorical conclusions particularly when, by your own admission, "I’ve no interest in Israel at all."

 

When your error was corrected, you've then ridiculously converted this action into you somehow being labelled an "Israel apologist."

 

Now that we've clarified your mistake, can we limit discussion to the subject at hand, instead of making (yet another) thread all about you and your self constructed sense of persecution, which once again stems from your steaming in and making ridiculous claims regarding a subject which, by your own admission, you have little interest in (and, apparently little knowledge of).

 

Thanks.

Out and about now but there was a post yesterday that said something along the lines of we defend everything the us and Israel does. You daft cunt.

 

I don’t feel persecuted at all, it’s words on a screen.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Out and about now but there was a post yesterday that said something along the lines of we defend everything the us and Israel does. You daft cunt.

 

I don’t feel persecuted at all, it’s words on a screen.

Yes. A post that wasn't addressed to you. Or even a reply to one of your posts. It was just a general statement addressed to nobody in particular. But, somewhat strangely, led to this reply:

 

"Can I just check is it this thread I’m being accused of being a Nazi and an Israel apologist. At the same time."

 

But, yet again, you've made it all about you! What a surpise! Ha haha haha haha haha.

 

Why do you always do this? Are you lacking attention in other areas of life? Is this brought about by a problem with "little Rico?"

 

We're all here to help.

[Stickman]

John Mann is a cunt.

 

 

Even bigger than him ( I know that's pushing it) is John Woodcock

Here he is having a go at Corbyn basically trying to call him a liar over the fact he's never criticised Russia (wrongly)

Bit rich Labour MP's like him trying to gain the moral high ground over when he voted for the continued bombing of Yemen

 

Chris Williamson is great telling him to go and join the Tories..(rightly so)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swoai_jjUMs  

[Rico1304]

Yes. A post that wasn't addressed to you. Or even a reply to one of your posts. It was just a general statement addressed to nobody in particular. But, somewhat strangely, led to this reply:

 

"Can I just check is it this thread I’m being accused of being a Nazi and an Israel apologist. At the same time."

 

But, yet again, you've made it all about you! What a surpise! Ha haha haha haha haha.

 

Why do you always do this? Are you lacking attention in other areas of life? Is this brought about by a problem with "little Rico?"

 

We're all here to help.

Hold on, you seem to know the other posters intentions...surely you’d only know that if?

 

All fine down there thanks. In fact I’m having a piss so all in hand.

[Section_31]

I don’t know who they think they are kidding. Nobody is getting Corbyn out. There’s half a million people in the Labour Party and the vast majority appear to have joined because of him. These laughable smears and whinging from the usual suspects aren’t suddenly going to change the membership’s views on Corbyn.

 

The only thing the smears will do is potentially damage voting for Labour itself which then leads you to ask the question why are MP’s like Umuna, Phillips and Berger doing this and repeatedly. The answer is pretty obvious when you think about it. They would rather see a Tory govt than a labour one run by Corbyn which is even more astounding when you think of just how right wing the current Tory govt is. The fact that one of these MP’s is in one of the safest and left wing seats in the country particularly rankles. It makes you wonder how she’s going to last what methods and lengths the local party will have to take to oust her.

 

What it has also done has shown up a particular type of person in our society. A lot of labour supporting celebrities fit into this class. They’re people who realise that the tories are inherently bad for people who aren’t rich. They’re a Party based on keeping the class structure in place so they can stay on the gravy train. So what they do is they support labour because labour want to protect the NHS, the vulnerable etc. The problem comes when that means the policies have to change to fund it.

 

A prime example is JK Rowling although there are plenty of them. They all hate Corbyn. Despite the fact that Corbyn is one of the few genuine people in parliament who has stood up for what’s right his whole career. He’s trying to change the party structure itself so that members will have more of a say meaning the party isnt run behind the scenes by faceless men in suits who have tended to put right wing people in positions of power and as candidates for MP. They’re the people who have enabled the tories and the right wing all these years.

 

They all hid behind the stick they gave him by saying they liked his policies but wanted him ousted because he couldn’t win an election and that meant the policies would never happen. They wanted another Blair type bullshitter in like Owen Smith but wouldn’t accept the problems that come with that are that the party becomes a dictatorship again. You would have maybe then expected the general election results would have then meant the stick would stop coming because he clearly is electable.

 

Instead they just all jump on these right wing smears which makes clear that it’s not the man they have a problem with it’s the policies. They like the idea that they aren’t tories but their actions suggest otherwise.

 

Really good post this. 

 

For a while I've felt there's a new class system in the West. There's the small super class (the 1%), then there's the so-called 'under class' which is the working class with no work to do, and then there's this kind of beige, sprawling, homogeneous middle ground which isn't especially politically engaged or bothered about other people, but just wants to preserve its own living standards as long as possible in the face of neoliberalism's relentless assault.

 

This class is broken down further into those who care what people think, and those that don't. Those that don't probably vote Tory, and those that want to be perceived as having a social conscience vote Labour. 

 

They're socially liberal but economically right wing. Cameron did well - fantastically well - in changing the Tories' image to appeal to them. Gay marriage, a symbol that looks like a tree, hood a hoodie and all that bollocks, But underneath they were waging war on the sick, poor and disabled. The above group shed no tears because they're not really left wing, they're trendy liberals - and only then - usually just for show.  

 

This 'safe zone' has been removed by Corbyn now. They no longer have a home, a party that preserves their way of life but also allows them to preserve their conscience, and they don't like that fact. 

 

They want a pro Brexit, pro 'business' party that lets them keep their money while not even attempting to lift the floorboards up of a rotten house and see what's going on underneath, while crucially also allowing them to be socially acceptable, and Corbyn has made them uncomfortable by actually taking the party back to its working class and social justice roots. 

[Babb'sBurstNad]

*snip*

 

For a while I've felt there's a new class system in the West. There's the small super class (the 1%), then there's the so-called 'under class' which is the working class with no work to do, and then there's this kind of beige, sprawling, homogeneous middle ground which isn't especially politically engaged or bothered about other people, but just wants to preserve its own living standards as long as possible in the face of neoliberalism's relentless assault.

 

I'm currently reading John Boorman's autobiography, and this is reminiscent of how he describes the post-war boom of the lower middle classes and the suburbia he grew up in. He speaks with some disdain about it, about how the dream of social mobility lead to a strange kind of disconnect, an ideal that ultimately manifested itself as an unwarranted snobbishness, born out of the need to differentiate themselves from those lower down the ladder.

 

Once you've convinced people that they can gain a newfound status, maintaining that becomes all important. When they hit the ceiling of how high they can climb, the only imperative is to avoid sliding downwards and continuing to highlight a distinction with others. It effectively solidified the class system rather than breaking it down, because the ranks of the lower middle classes sought to entrench themselves.

 

True dyed in the wool Tories, like Rees-Mogg, are ideologists. I don't like what they espouse, but in a way I can respect it. They have an idea of what they think will make the country better, and that's largely based on strict economic principles and a skewed view of what is good and bad in our society. He'll be farting through silk for the rest of his life anyway, and along with the other Eton boys could make far more cash in the City, so accusations of being in it for the gravy train are wide of the mark in my view.

 

Far more insidious are the non-geriatric lower middle class Tories, the beige ones you describe, socially liberal when viewing the outside world, yet introspective when it comes to economic matters because one is linked to status and the other isn't. It's a peculiarly protestant problem in many ways, steeped in a kind of exceptionalism mindset, convinced that they've done well because of sheer hard work, rather than accepting they were the beneficiaries of outside factors. 

[Strontium]

...Corbyn has made them uncomfortable by actually taking the party back to its working class and social justice roots.

You what? Labour's surge has been on the back of overwhelmingly middle class support. Analysis of the 2017 election results shows that "for every 10 per cent more working class voters in a constituency, there tended to have been a fall of about 3 per cent in the Labour vote and a rise of about 5 per cent in the Tory vote between 2010 and 2017". The second biggest swing from Labour to Tory last year was against Dennis Skinner in Bolsover. Corbynism may be a lot of things, but some working class take back of Labour it most definitely isn't.

[Vincent Vega]

Really good post this. 

 

For a while I've felt there's a new class system in the West. There's the small super class (the 1%), then there's the so-called 'under class' which is the working class with no work to do, and then there's this kind of beige, sprawling, homogeneous middle ground which isn't especially politically engaged or bothered about other people, but just wants to preserve its own living standards as long as possible in the face of neoliberalism's relentless assault.

 

This class is broken down further into those who care what people think, and those that don't. Those that don't probably vote Tory, and those that want to be perceived as having a social conscience vote Labour. 

 

They're socially liberal but economically right wing. Cameron did well - fantastically well - in changing the Tories' image to appeal to them. Gay marriage, a symbol that looks like a tree, hood a hoodie and all that bollocks, But underneath they were waging war on the sick, poor and disabled. The above group shed no tears because they're not really left wing, they're trendy liberals - and only then - usually just for show.  

 

This 'safe zone' has been removed by Corbyn now. They no longer have a home, a party that preserves their way of life but also allows them to preserve their conscience, and they don't like that fact. 

 

They want a pro Brexit, pro 'business' party that lets them keep their money while not even attempting to lift the floorboards up of a rotten house and see what's going on underneath, while crucially also allowing them to be socially acceptable, and Corbyn has made them uncomfortable by actually taking the party back to its working class and social justice roots. 

 

This sort of sums these views up pretty well.

 

[Boss]

You what? Labour's surge has been on the back of overwhelmingly middle class support. Analysis of the 2017 election results shows that "for every 10 per cent more working class voters in a constituency, there tended to have been a fall of about 3 per cent in the Labour vote and a rise of about 5 per cent in the Tory vote between 2010 and 2017". The second biggest swing from Labour to Tory last year was against Dennis Skinner in Bolsover. Corbynism may be a lot of things, but some working class take back of Labour it most definitely isn't.

 

Turkeys voting for Christmas. Murdoch indoctrination 101.

[Vincent Vega]

You what? Labour's surge has been on the back of overwhelmingly middle class support. Analysis of the 2017 election results shows that "for every 10 per cent more working class voters in a constituency, there tended to have been a fall of about 3 per cent in the Labour vote and a rise of about 5 per cent in the Tory vote between 2010 and 2017". The second biggest swing from Labour to Tory last year was against Dennis Skinner in Bolsover. Corbynism may be a lot of things, but some working class take back of Labour it most definitely isn't.

 

Whilst that may be partly true Stronts, Labour's vote increased massively in many working class seats they already held. Huge numbers of working class people who hadn't voted for anyone in years were enthused to vote and many even decided to become Labour party members.

[Strontium]

I've no doubt Corbyn brought some non-voters into the fold. Overall though the picture is one of stagnating working class support and burgeoning support from the middle classes - people like, well, Corbyn himself.

 

The most enthusiastic Corbyn supporter I know personally is my mother in law. Retired professional, lives in a £600k house, owns property abroad, voted Leave. I'd say she was typical of a lot of new Corbyn voters.

[Dr Nowt]

Case closed.

[Jairzinho]

Turkeys voting for Christmas. Murdoch indoctrination 101.

Yep. Going to take more than two years to eradicate 35/40 years of constant poison.

[Jairzinho]

Case closed.

Milne's Stalinist master plan of specifically targeting retired millionaire leave voters finally bearing fruit.

[Anny Road]

SD’s mum in law must be a thick o racist like the rest of us leave voters. Turn up for the books that eh.

[The Guest]

Looking back at my post Section I think it’s shit because it still doesn’t do justice to what I’m trying to say. I just can’t say it succinctly enough. The most important thing about Corbyn which is going under the radar because the political media won’t even acknowledge it is how accessible he and Momentum are making the Labour Party. If you make it possible for local members to actually nominate and choose their own candidates for MP it would revolutionise democracy in this country. It was never going to happen overnight and I’m still sceptical the blairites won’t wrestle back control or go nuclear if it ever comes close to happening. The days of Tony Blair handpicking his child’s mates for candidacy being over would be a great thing.

 

In terms of the election results I think there were a number of factors and not all were related to Corbyn. We were lead to believe the centre ground was right wing and this was because labour had haemorrhaged votes and most of the country was voting for right wing party’s like the tories, UKIP and the Lib Dem’s. This was blown to pieces by the country getting a referendum and voting leave. All those UKIP voters who blindfolded themselves to the right wing shite UKIP came out with and voted for them because they just wanted out of the EU came back and voted labour.

 

Corbyn’s policy of wiping out tuition fees can’t be understated either. Not just young people heading to uni will have voted for this. Graduates pissed off that they went through it and wouldn’t want other students having to put up with it and the hope that if they wiped them out in future they might also do something retrospectively would vote for it. Also middle class parents seeing their kids getting screwed over would also vote for it. It’s a fucking huge policy. I found this one the most enjoyable because of the decades of tories bribing people with reduced taxes (whilst hiding the detrimental effects of it) they were crying that labour were bribing young people with this

 

Finally the massive influx in labour membership meant that the tories and the UK media couldn’t compete with the sheer manpower that labour had to get their message out.

[Strontium]

If you make it possible for local members to actually nominate and choose their own candidates for MP it would revolutionise democracy in this country.

LOL. The NEC chose Labour's candidates at the last election, completely cutting local members out of the loop. That's how they ended up with that slapped-arse face in Walton who local branch members had never even met, who just happened to be Len McCluskey's bag man.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

LOL. The NEC chose Labour's candidates at the last election, completely cutting local members out of the loop. That's how they ended up with that slapped-arse face in Walton who local branch members had never even met, who just happened to be Len McCluskey's bag man.

I'm not as au fait with the intricacies of Labour selection processes as you seem to be, but I thought that the NEC pretty much chose all candidates, which is why you get gobshites like Angela fucking Eagle shitting their kecks at the thought of having to justify themselves to their constituency parties.

 

[Edit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Carden   "Slapped arse face" is hardly a complete stranger to the city, is he.  And he defeated a self-serving corrupt cunt, so he's alright by me.

[Anubis]

I see Carden has come up in your post Angry.

 

The only reason Dan Carden was 'imposed' on Walton CLP was because it was a snap election.

 

At the time the election was called Steve Rotheram was still the MP. Initially he was waiting on the result of the Metro Mayor election, but then after he won he took some time to decide whether or not he would try to do both jobs - Metro Mayor and MP or resign from the seat.

 

By the time he decided there was only three or four days to the candidate declaration deadline and Walton didn't have the time to go through the proper selection process before it closed. Hence HQ allocated it to Carden.

 

As a side issue, happily this scuppered Joe Anderson's plan to try to walk into the seat.

 

Dan Carden is actually proving to be a very good MP. Not only was he massively involved knocking on doors and meeting constituents, he spends the majority of his time away from Parliament campaigning with the CLP members. He's bright, articulate, gave an excellent maiden speech in Parliament, and is well-appraised of local issues.

 

Walton CLP is also one of the most active CLPs in Liverpool, both in terms of supporting local campaigns like the Arriva dispute and the RMT action for keeping guards on Merseyrail trains, but also in campaigning on a weekend basis in the extended NW area. We have a big membership with many young and very enthusiastic members who are working with national counterparts to shape the future of the party for young people.

 

We're doing ok thanks.