Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[aRdja]

3 minutes ago, Sixtimes Dog said:

 

I don't know, I guess I just thought that people who bark on endlessly about political principles might do the correct thing rather than what they think is politically expedient.

 

Abject rubbish. I didn't think the referendum was legitimate in the first place, but that's by the bye. If you believe in democracy, then you believe that people have a right to change their minds.

Of course, but the UK need to leave the EU first. People voted to leave the EU. The european election indicated that they haven’t changed their minds. People are free to campaign to rejoin the EU after. 

[Bjornebye]

11 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

If you think of yourself as a democrat, you *need* to respect the result of the referendum. The focus now should be on avoiding no-deal Brexit, not whether the UK should leave the EU or not. 

Nonsense. Remain at all costs. 

[magicrat]

16 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

If you think of yourself as a democrat, you *need* to respect the result of the referendum. The focus now should be on avoiding no-deal Brexit, not whether the UK should leave the EU or not. 

I might have said you had a point a couple of years ago but over 3 years down the line and cliff edge the only Brexit on offer I think the referendum result is unsafe and people should be consulted again. Whether or not we should have left by now we haven't and pretending the original result is sacrosanct is nonsense. It was wrong to hold a referendum , it was arguably wrong the result was not enacted and  it is wrong to crash out now without a mandate.  Clean slate , new vote and move on whatever the result

[Strontium]

10 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

Of course, but the UK need to leave the EU first. People voted to leave the EU. The european election indicated that they haven’t changed their minds. People are free to campaign to rejoin the EU after. 

 

At most, the European election showed that about 5.8m people are keen enough on a No Deal Brexit to vote for parties advocating it. But you think 30% for the Brexit Party was a landslide.

[deiseach]

19 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

Of course, but the UK need to leave the EU first. People voted to leave the EU. The european election indicated that they haven’t changed their minds. People are free to campaign to rejoin the EU after. 

Is there any level of no-deal turmoil that would dissuade you from this point of view? If there is, then the only difference between you and 'the FBPE lot' is the level of turmoil you are willing to accept. If there isn't, you're a fucking moron.

[Numero Veinticinco]

35 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

If you think of yourself as a democrat, you *need* to respect the result of the referendum. The focus now should be on avoiding no-deal Brexit, not whether the UK should leave the EU or not. 

So let me get this straight, I'm not a democrat because I believe in more democratic votes now that more information is available? I’m not a democrat because I believe in people being able to change their mind whenever they want?

 

If I want to be a democrat I should be less of a democrat. Sounds fair. 

[aRdja]

11 minutes ago, deiseach said:

Is there any level of no-deal turmoil that would dissuade you from this point of view? If there is, then the only difference between you and 'the FBPE lot' is the level of turmoil you are willing to accept. If there isn't, you're a fucking moron.

I don’t believe that you should leave without a deal. Hence you should focus on getting the best deal or least damaging deal possible.

[aRdja]

4 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

So let me get this straight, I'm not a democrat because I believe in more democratic votes now that more information is available? I’m not a democrat because I believe in people being able to change their mind whenever they want?

 

If I want to be a democrat I should be less of a democrat. Sounds fair. 

They haven’t implemented the result of the first referendum as yet i.e. you haven’t left the EU. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

They haven’t implemented the result of the first referendum as yet i.e. you haven’t left the EU. 

I am aware of this. It’s clear that you don’t believe in people’s democratic right to change their mind. Fine. Don’t pretend I’m less of a democrat because I do believe in them having that right to a free vote. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

9 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

I don’t believe that you should leave without a deal.

Hold on, why don’t we just leave because that’s what people voted for? After all, who cares what damage it does or what people want now. Democracy happened and shouldn’t happen again, not even if we now know more about it and might no longer want it. Less democracy is more democracy. 

 

 

[aRdja]

10 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I am aware of this. It’s clear that you don’t believe in people’s democratic right to change their mind. Fine. Don’t pretend I’m less of a democrat because I do believe in them having that right to a free vote. 

People are free to campaign the rejoin the EU after you actually leave. Australia had a referendum on same-sex marriage recently, and they legalised it just a couple of weeks after. Imagine the uproar if the conservatives asked for a ‘confirmatory vote’.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, viRdjil said:

People are free to campaign the rejoin the EU after you actually leave. Australia had a referendum on same-sex marriage recently, and they legalised it just a couple of weeks after. Imagine the uproar if the conservatives asked for a ‘confirmatory vote’.

I don’t care about that. I care about the democratic freedom of being able to change your mind when new information is available. What new information was available during the same-sex marriage referendum? 

[deiseach]

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 hours ago, viRdjil said:

If you think of yourself as a democrat, you *need* to respect the result of the referendum. The focus now should be on avoiding no-deal Brexit, not whether the UK should leave the EU or not. 

At the very least, you need to acknowledge the existence of about half the country who disagree with you.  The arrogance to just wish people away is shared by the Tories and Kippers on one side and FBPE/Lib Dems on the other. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

On a basic assessment, it's arguably undemocratic to not implement the result of the referendum. 

 

But... 

 

Is it really democratic to give people one option regarding leaving the EU when people who picked that option might have wanted to bring it about in many different ways which weren't available for them to pick on the referendum ballot paper? For exam OK, some people who voted for leave might have wanted to only leave if a deal could be reached, some might have wanted no deal from the outset, some might have wanted to just leave the EU but remain in supplementary agreements like the single market etc. 

 

The increasing use by leave voters of rhetoric like "it's what the people voted for" when trying to justify a no deal Brexit actually betrays democracy too. Nobody knows what all leave voters voted for. They've all been shoehorned into the category of leave at all costs, when there's nothing to suggest that that's accurate. 

[Gnasher]

A right little luvvie tiff going on above. Oh shucks.

[Gnasher]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/15/european-commission-rebuked-jose-manuel-barroso-ex-chiefs-goldman-sachs-job

 

 

The above is what you're setting your sail by. Capitalism with a very small c still results in food banks, zero hour contracts, mass movement of low paid workers and increased privatisation. It really is that simple. If you vote Capitalism get the results capitalism brings.

 

However I suggest the ardent defenders of the eu system  as exanpled in the link above should  stop looking down  their noses at people who crave and fight for something a little better than what the past 30 odd years has produced.

[aRdja]

18 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/15/european-commission-rebuked-jose-manuel-barroso-ex-chiefs-goldman-sachs-job

 

 

The above is what you're setting your sail by. Capitalism with a very small c still results in food banks, zero hour contracts, mass movement of low paid workers and increased privatisation. It really is that simple. If you vote Capitalism get the results capitalism brings.

 

However I suggest the ardent defenders of the eu system  as exanpled in the link above should  stop looking down  their noses at people who crave and fight for something a little better than what the past 30 odd years has produced.

What’s going to replace European Ombudsman once we leave the EU?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

8 hours ago, Sixtimes Dog said:

 

I don't know, I guess I just thought that people who bark on endlessly about political principles might do the correct thing rather than what they think is politically expedient.

 

Surely "the correct thing" - the principled thing - in this instance is whatever does the least economic and social damage. That means that the priority is to stop a No Deal Brexit and you can't do that if you refuse to engage with political reality. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

What’s going to replace European Ombudsman once we leave the EU?

In the words of some drunken woman outside a kebab shop in every town on a Saturday night  "Leave it! He's not worth it!"

[Gnasher]

Inequality has risen in Europe since the late 70s. But shhhush about silly little things like that. We are in Strpford wives world here. Opinik will not be tolerated

 

 

But whisper it ..

 

https://voxeu.org/article/forty-years-inequality-europe

 

 

Of course inequality involves a small.little point of a lot of people getting poorer because a lot of people get a good deal richer so I'm probably just being a moaning Minnie.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Nelly-Torres said:

 

The increasing use by leave voters of rhetoric like "it's what the people voted for" when trying to justify a no deal Brexit actually betrays democracy too. Nobody knows what all leave voters voted for. They've all been shoehorned into the category of leave at all costs, when there's nothing to suggest that that's accurate. 

Not one of the Leave campaigners campaigned for No Deal. When they now say it's "the will of the people" (as if half the people didn't vote to remain) they know they're lying.

[Gnasher]

8 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

What’s going to replace European Ombudsman once we leave the EU?

A rope with a noose if I had my way.

[Gnasher]

4 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

In the words of some drunken woman outside a kebab shop in every town on a Saturday night  "Leave it! He's not worth it!"

Care to comment on something constructive or informative for once angry? You're the one who gets a direct payment from the EU.

 

Care to give your thoughts on why inequality has risen in Europe in the past 30 years or so? Or is that question going to be met with the usual guffaw with your mob negging away behind you?

[Boss]

Fair play viRdjil. The last of the true democrats.