Scottish Independence, yay or nay?

[Section_31]

 

Scotland's greatest living man models the new uniform of Independence. It is obviously tax deductable.

Has Sean Connery always been old?

[Mook]

I've come to a decision today, I'm going to go along & spoil my vote tonight.

 

I've found the whole thing thoroughly depressing over the last couple of weeks, I have no faith whatsoever in Westminster & yet when the Yes side have had the chance to make their case in the recent debates, all we've had is bluster from them & no guarantees about currency, employment, oil, the NHS or pretty much anything else other than the fact that we won't be governed by London.

 

I really wanted to vote Yes for change but I think the risk of 10/20 years worth of struggling as a country is too great a risk.& to be honest, the level of debate up here has been embarrassing, generally two people shouting over each other & people so entrenched in their respective camps that they refuse to listen to any sort of reason from the other side.

 

I'm not particularly happy with myself to be honest but there you go.

[Champ]

Can't speak for anyone else but I think he's a complete tit.

You can speak for me!

 

I played that YouTube vid someone had put up. The first time I played it I'd forgotten I'd got my phone on silent. After replaying it I realised that that was the more accurate reflection of his contribution to the debate when the chips were really down

[Joe Strummer]

Anyone seriously worried Scotland might go? Bookies don't think so.

[Dougie Do'ins]

I've come to a decision today, I'm going to go along & spoil my vote tonight.

 

I've found the whole thing thoroughly depressing over the last couple of weeks, I have no faith whatsoever in Westminster & yet when the Yes side have had the chance to make their case in the recent debates, all we've had is bluster from them & no guarantees about currency, employment, oil, the NHS or pretty much anything else other than the fact that we won't be governed by London.

 

I really wanted to vote Yes for change but I think the risk of 10/20 years worth of struggling as a country is too great a risk.& to be honest, the level of debate up here has been embarrassing, generally two people shouting over each other & people so entrenched in their respective camps that they refuse to listen to any sort of reason from the other side.

 

I'm not particularly happy with myself to be honest but there you go.

Why even bother going to the polling station at all ? 

[Mook]

Why even bother going to the polling station at all ? 

 

I'm going to write something on the card.

 

Plus, the polling station is right next door to my house.

[Tom R]

I was up in Aberdeen yesterday and I had good chats with some ring leaders on both sides.

 

The No crowd's arguments were based on rational, logical economic and social factors, but from the people I spoke to on the Yes side it was just bluster and nationalism.

What the yes camp simply refused to even entertain as a possibility is that once Edinburgh and London stop being partners they will become economic rivals. In the ensuing negotiations, Scotland's going to find out pretty quickly that they've brought a knife to a gunfight.

London will take the Scottish banks and Scotland's entire financial industry - 1 in 8 jobs north of the border. They'll take them because they can. Who or what is going to stop them?

London will control the interest rates of the pound, with scant regard to the needs of whatever other countries are using it. Again, who's going to stop them?

To get back into the EU, Scotland will have to reapply as a new member. The EU has made this quite clear - and Spain will block every attempt. When you recall that it took Spain 8 years to join the EU, that's going to be 2022 at the earliest. If you look at the way Turkey's attempts to join have been thwarted at every turn for 27 years, it could even be a lot later than that!

And yes, the rest of the UK will put border posts up, of course they will, just like the mobile phone companies will suddenly start charging 50p a minute for "international" phone calls to Glasgow. Again, they will do this because they can.

There is literally nobody to stop them.

Some can call this scaremongering if they like, but it boils down to this: Scotland has very little political or economic leverage against the rest of the UK and even less against the EU. They will be relying on the good will and sympathy of people who will want nothing more than to see an independent Scotland fail "as an example" to other secessionist movements across Europe.

And these people will hold all of the cards.

The fact is that an "independent" Scotland will be far more dependent on London than ever before, except for one small facet: it will no longer have a disproportionately loud voice in Westminster. That voice would have been silenced. For what? Just outright nationalism as far as I can tell, and we all know how well that sort of thing tends to work out.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

<snip>

Louie was just about to vote Yes until he read that post.

 

[Sugar Ape]

Great post Tom.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Great post Tom.

Don't praise him. The fucker should have been part of the No campaign. We could have put this whole thing to bed months ago if he'd just said that at a few Yes rallies.

[Sugar Ape]

Fuck you Tom.

[VladimirIlyich]

I was up in Aberdeen yesterday and I had good chats with some ring leaders on both sides.

 

The No crowd's arguments were based on rational, logical economic and social factors, but from the people I spoke to on the Yes side it was just bluster and nationalism.

 

What the yes camp simply refused to even entertain as a possibility is that once Edinburgh and London stop being partners they will become economic rivals. In the ensuing negotiations, Scotland's going to find out pretty quickly that they've brought a knife to a gunfight.

 

London will take the Scottish banks and Scotland's entire financial industry - 1 in 8 jobs north of the border. They'll take them because they can. Who or what is going to stop them?

 

London will control the interest rates of the pound, with scant regard to the needs of whatever other countries are using it. Again, who's going to stop them?

 

To get back into the EU, Scotland will have to reapply as a new member. The EU has made this quite clear - and Spain will block every attempt. When you recall that it took Spain 8 years to join the EU, that's going to be 2022 at the earliest. If you look at the way Turkey's attempts to join have been thwarted at every turn for 27 years, it could even be a lot later than that!

 

And yes, the rest of the UK will put border posts up, of course they will, just like the mobile phone companies will suddenly start charging 50p a minute for "international" phone calls to Glasgow. Again, they will do this because they can.

 

There is literally nobody to stop them.

 

Some can call this scaremongering if they like, but it boils down to this: Scotland has very little political or economic leverage against the rest of the UK and even less against the EU. They will be relying on the good will and sympathy of people who will want nothing more than to see an independent Scotland fail "as an example" to other secessionist movements across Europe.

 

And these people will hold all of the cards.

 

The fact is that an "independent" Scotland will be far more dependent on London than ever before, except for one small facet: it will no longer have a disproportionately loud voice in Westminster. That voice would have been silenced. For what? Just outright nationalism as far as I can tell, and we all know how well that sort of thing tends to work out.

Sad but unfortunately very true.

[Nightcat]

I think Mook is one of those people who hide their personal phobias, their incompetence and mediocrity behind politicians' failings.

 

But politics is the mirror of society, so Mook you are no better than the people you despise and condemn. Instead of voting you should stand in front of the mirror have a rant at yourself and then spit.

[Sugar Ape]

You can see the way this is heading, whether the vote is yes or no. Negotiations won't be pretty.

 

 

Our political editor Patrick Wintour is reporting signs of a backlash against prime minister David Cameron - regardless of the results. He writes:

Claire Perry, the rail minister, has become the first Conservative front bencher to join the growing rebellion over promises to give Scotland more powers regardless of today’s referendum result by warning against ‘promises of financial party bags’.

 

She attacked the pledge made by the three main parties to maintain the current level of funding for Scotland and devolve local tax raising powers as hardly “hardly equitable” to the situation in England.

 

She warned against giving Scotland “a whole raft of goodies” which will have to be “paid for by us south of the border to try and appease the Yes voters”.

 

Writing in the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald, Mrs Perry said: ‘The funding formula for Scotland, the rather cobbled together Barnett formula, already delivers per capita funding north of the border well in excess of that spent per head in the other parts of the union, and it there is a proposal to allow devolution of local taxation, as well as maintaining the current level of funding a a dollop from the UK Parliament, then that can hardly be equitable for those of us in the Devizes constituency and all other areas in the non-Scottish union.

 

‘Cool, calm analysis, not promises of financial party bags to appease Mr Salmond, are what is needed from tomorrow and onwards.’

 

Her remarks were immediately endorsed by another Conservative MP Anne Marrie Morris on twitter. Other Tories have been voicing their doubts, and it looks as if David Cameron faces a hard sell explaining the concession that have been made about further devolution, and powers to Scotland.

 

The Conservatives had in 2010 said the Barnett formula - responsible for setting the subsidy for Scotland - was reaching the end of its useful life, but Cameron has said it will continue. Clegg has agreed but also adjustments need to be made for the Welsh.

 

Perry also said: ‘Either way I am expecting Parliament to be recalled next week to understand the result and any proposed settlement.’

 

Jesse Norman, another senior tory backbencher has also pointed to the inequities in funding saying Scotland gets £10,152 per head. Wales, despite being much poorer, gets £9,709. England gets £8,529.

 

James Gray, another Tory MP for former shadow Scottish secretary, has also joined the rebellion, saying: ‘Talk about feeding an addiction. The more you give them, the more they want, and we would be back with calls for independence within a decade or sooner.

 

‘For too long the rights of 55 million English have been subordinated to the shouting of 4.5 million Scots. That must end.’

 

 

[Mook]

I think Mook is one of those people who hide their personal phobias, their incompetence and mediocrity behind politicians' failings.

 

But politics is the mirror of society, so Mook you are no better than the people you despise and condemn. Instead of voting you should stand in front of the mirror have a rant at yourself and then spit.

 

Nothing quite like a bit of amateur psychology on a Thursday morning.

[Ranxerox]

 

You can see the way this is heading, whether the vote is yes or no. Negotiations won't be pretty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This was the kind of shit we had to put up with after the first Quebec referendum in 1976, non stop handouts alternated by threats of separatism if we didn't do something to accommodate Quebec. The curious thing is that Quebec has become addicted to Federal aid (more Federal money is spent in Quebec than recv'd in tax revenues) and they still can't balance their books. A fact that has led many Quebec voters to realize they couldn't go it alone.

[Pureblood]

Och.

[Sugar Ape]

This was the kind of shit we had to put up with after the first Quebec referendum in 1976, non stop handouts alternated by threats of separatism if we didn't do something to accommodate Quebec. The curious thing is that Quebec has become addicted to Federal aid (more Federal money is spent in Quebec than recv'd in tax revenues) and they still can't balance their books. A fact that has led many Quebec voters to realize they couldn't go it alone.

I've been reading up on the Qubec referendums recently ( I like the term neverendums ) and it seems to be they are much better off being part of Canada. I think the same is true of Scotland being in the UK, but if they decide to leave then they'll live and die by that decision.

 

I'm on for £150 if they do leave though.

[Trumo]

The arguments of Yes Scotland just come across as a large scale example of a Si brainfart. Plenty of early bluster and promises of a great idea in the making, but little clarity of vision and much ignorance of sound logic. The more their case gets picked apart, the more insular and angry they get. They don't seem to envisage the sheer scale of problems they will have down the line, as long as they can paint saltires on their faces, wear their kilts and scream something about "Freedom!"

 

Look at the Soviet Union. The other Soviet states were so desperate to be out of the control of Moscow that they opened themselves up to political and economic instability and were almost powerless to stop the sort of resource grab that created the oligarch and gangster culture they're still trying to deal with today. That's not to say the Soviet Union and the socialist ideal was the right way, but they needed a much more gradual change.

 

The Scots are in for a long arse-fucking if they manage to gain independence as they don't have the economic strength to maintain their current standard of living without having to kowtow to the whims of London and Westminster.

[Champ]

I was up in Aberdeen yesterday and I had good chats with some ring leaders on both sides.

 

The No crowd's arguments were based on rational, logical economic and social factors, but from the people I spoke to on the Yes side it was just bluster and nationalism.

What the yes camp simply refused to even entertain as a possibility is that once Edinburgh and London stop being partners they will become economic rivals. In the ensuing negotiations, Scotland's going to find out pretty quickly that they've brought a knife to a gunfight.London will take the Scottish banks and Scotland's entire financial industry - 1 in 8 jobs north of the border. They'll take them because they can. Who or what is going to stop them?London will control the interest rates of the pound, with scant regard to the needs of whatever other countries are using it. Again, who's going to stop them?To get back into the EU, Scotland will have to reapply as a new member. The EU has made this quite clear - and Spain will block every attempt. When you recall that it took Spain 8 years to join the EU, that's going to be 2022 at the earliest. If you look at the way Turkey's attempts to join have been thwarted at every turn for 27 years, it could even be a lot later than that!And yes, the rest of the UK will put border posts up, of course they will, just like the mobile phone companies will suddenly start charging 50p a minute for "international" phone calls to Glasgow. Again, they will do this because they can.There is literally nobody to stop them.Some can call this scaremongering if they like, but it boils down to this: Scotland has very little political or economic leverage against the rest of the UK and even less against the EU. They will be relying on the good will and sympathy of people who will want nothing more than to see an independent Scotland fail "as an example" to other secessionist movements across Europe.And these people will hold all of the cards.The fact is that an "independent" Scotland will be far more dependent on London than ever before, except for one small facet: it will no longer have a disproportionately loud voice in Westminster. That voice would have been silenced. For what? Just outright nationalism as far as I can tell, and we all know how well that sort of thing tends to work out.

Sad but unfortunately very true.

And like Mook posted earlier, when the No campaign finally woke up to what was happening and began to ask questions the Yes campaign's only response has been to brand such real and fundamental concerns as scaremongering. Its not scaremongering, they are the unpalatable realities of most people's lives and cannot be brushed aside as unpatriotic or negative bluster.

 

The, 'if you're not for us, you're against us' mentality has reared its ugly head

[Jairzinho]

No idea why the text is white on blue, Scots gonna Scot.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/boris-johnson-vows-to-resist-scots-tax-devolution-1-3505113

 

SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE: Boris Johnson was accused of wanting to “turn the screw on Scotland” after he said the UK should resist handing new tax raising powers to Holyrood if independence is rejected next month.

 

 

The London mayor stated his opposition to devolving greater tax responsibilities to Scotland as a poll showed he had opened up a big lead over his rivals as the politician the public would like to see replace Tory Party leader David Cameron.

 

Nationalists last night seized on the intervention to warn that Mr Johnson’s comments offered a “grim insight” into Scotland’s future devolution prospects in the event of a No vote and a Johnson premiership.

 

Some 34 per cent of voters interviewed believe the London Mayor – who announced last week that he will seek to return as an MP at the general election – should be the next Tory leader.

The YouGov poll found he was 19 points ahead of Home Secretary Theresa May, while Chancellor George Osborne was third favourite with just 9 per cent.

However, in a departure from Mr Cameron’s stance on devolution Mr Johnson insisted there is “no reason” for pledging more powers to the Scottish Parliament over tax and spending in the event of a No vote.

 

Mr Cameron backed handing Holyrood the power to set its own rate of income tax and levels of some benefits as part of a package of enhanced devolution as set out in the party’s Strathclyde commission.

 

However, Mr Johnson, when asked about the plan, became one of the most senior Tories to set out his hostility to greater devolution for Scotland as he said greater powers should instead be handed to England’s major cities.

He said: “Alex Salmond has been thrashed in these debates, but for no reason we are promising the Scots more tax raising powers. There’s no need.

“What has England ever got out of this devolution process? If you want to have growth in the English cities then you should do what Manchester wants, what Liverpool, Leeds and all of us want – and that’s more tax raising powers.”

 

Pro-independence campaigners said there was now a serious prospect of Mr Johnson emerging as the UK prime minister after the 2015 General Election.

 

Blair Jenkins, Yes Scotland’s Chief Executive said: “With Boris Johnson being tipped for the Tory leadership, we’ve been given a sobering insight into the reality of what additional powers will be offered in the event of a No vote.

[Jairzinho]

  

And like mook posted earlier, when the No campaign finally woke up to what was happening and began to ask questions the Yes campaign's only response has been to brand such real and fundamental concerns as scaremongering. Its not scaremongering, they are the unpalatable realities of most people's lives and cannot be brushed aside as unpatriotic or negative bluster.

 

The, 'if you're not for us, you're against us' mentality has reared its ugly head

 

Yep. Westminster has managed to make so many people's lives so fucking shit that many will be forced into short term decisions. So completely enslaved to the wants of banks and big corporations that they're forced to vote against a chance of lessening their appalling influence on life.

 

How utterly depressing. JP Morgan and ASDA deciding whether Scotland should become independent.

[stringvest]

A Scottish banking and financial industry would be required to support the Scottish people.  A Scottish Civil Service will be required to manage and administer the Scottish public services.  

 

I'd love to see the data behind the 1 in 8 jobs, because I don't believe it.  I bet my mortgage that's not 1 in 8 being delivered by Scots.  If people believe that non-centralised retail banking jobs would disappear, that's just crazy.  If we're talking about centralised jobs, for example IT and general business admin, even a cursory look will show you that these are largely outsourced, even if they're actually done in Scotland.  In the main, Scots are not benefitting from these jobs, either through direct employment or through tax or other revenues.  

 

The big mistake the 'Yes' lobby, Salmond in particular, have made here, is in not having a coherent and costed plan for a new currency from Day 1. A plan that would undoubtedly cost a small fortune, but would have provided a large number of jobs and would have guaranteed independence from English and EU 'influence'.  In other words, a vision for true independence.  The Scots are about to find out, yet again, just what a lying and slippery bunch of cunts are running the three main parties in Westminster.  

 

Back in the cellar for you lot!

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

6 point lead for No in the final poll.

[Scott_M]

I hope they vote no becuase I can't be arsed doing the inevitable extra work at work.