Rise of the far right in Europe.

[Bjornebye]

All racists are cunts. 

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

All racists are cunts.

 

Indeed but not all cunts are racist. Well I'm not.

[Bobby Hundreds]

You do know that entire story was media bollocks, right?

I am no fan of Apple (understatement) but the suicide rate at that Foxconn plant is lower than the suicide rate in China or, indeed, the United States.

 

A bad example then but the point still stands. Infact actually I don't think it is a bad example it was perceived by many to be true and people still bought the phone regardless.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

What do you think about the trans L'Oreal model?

 

The short clip I've seen seems to say if you're white you're racist unless you actively campaign for black equality.

Here's another interesting article about "white privilege" and systemic racism.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/06/white-people-solution-problem-munroe-bergdorf-racist?CMP=share_btn_fb

 

Too often, we seem to think that racism means actively doing or saying something racist. Not so.

 

We live in a society that is built on the spoils of racism, and that continues to benefit from inequality in all its forms. Or, as Bergdorf put it: “Slavery and colonialism, at the hands of white supremacy, played a huge part in shaping the United Kingdom and much of the west, into the superpower that it is today.”

 

“Why does that make me a racist?!” I hear you ask. It comes down to this: in western society we are all taught (explicitly or implicitly) that lighter is better. Those racist narratives are particularly prevalent in the US, but you’re kidding yourself if you think we Britons don’t suffer from the same prejudice. Take, for example, the stereotypical portrayals of black people in the media.

 

The net effect of this conscious and subconscious racism was reflected in a recent study recreating the landmark doll test of the 1940s. It showed that “we are still living in a society where dark things are devalued and white things are valued’.

 

In other words, if you grow up in a racist society, through no fault of your own, some of that racism is bound to stick subconsciously. It’s an unconscious conspiracy in which we are all complicit, unless we fight it.

 

But there’s more...

 

Our society has structural inequalities that benefit white people over people of colour (in the same way that structural inequalities around class, gender, sexuality, age and disability benefit certain groups over others). I benefit from that white privilege, and if you’re white, so do you. It’s not a choice we made, but it is a fact. And, significantly, we benefit from that at the cost of people of colour. If, as a white person, I am more likely to get hired than my equally competent BAME counterpart (something that has been amply documented), then I am benefiting from my white privilege as part of a systemically racist society. When there is only so much of the pie to go around, getting more than your fair share inevitably comes at the cost of someone else...

 

Bergdorf didn’t cause offence because she was wrong. She caused offence because she highlighted an uncomfortable truth: that being un-racist is not the same as being anti-racist.

[Rico1304]

Can't get my head round it to be honest. it's too SJW for me, the left eating itself.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Can't get my head round it to be honest. it's too SJW for me, the left eating itself.

There's not that much to get your head around.  It's nothing specifically to do with "the left" - it's just a mature reflection on the world we live in.

 

I'm not sure about the way Bergdorf worded her original comments, but she's started some interesting (and useful) conversations about the realities of racism.

[SasaS]

Interesting contribution, but again, the defence does not seem to be focused on what she actually said that L'Oreal decided was in collision with their values (whatever they may be).
 

"Honestly I don't have energy to talk about the racial violence of white people any more. Yes ALL white people.

"Because most of ya'll don't even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of colour.

"Your entire existence is drenched in racism."

"When I stated that 'all white people are racist', I was addressing that fact that western society as a whole, is a system rooted in white supremacy - designed to benefit, prioritise and protect white people before anyone of any other race."


I would say that both the article you linked and Bergdorf confuse racism and colonialism, often deliberately when it suits the point they are making, and don't realize there is a fundamental difference between historical legacy of colonialism and racism, conscious and unconscious racial bias they talk about and "a system rooted in white supremacy - designed to benefit, prioritise and protect white people before anyone of any other race".. 

Now this part I don't fully comprehend "ya'll don't even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of colour".. I get privilege and success if she means "as a race in former colonial powers and countries which parts of the economy relied on slavery", but what does she mean by "existence"? 

[Rico1304]

There's not that much to get your head around.  It's nothing specifically to do with "the left" - it's just a mature reflection on the world we live in.

 

I'm not sure about the way Bergdorf worded her original comments, but she's started some interesting (and useful) conversations about the realities of racism.

Someone else telling me how I should act because of the sins of past generations that I've no control over? Nope.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Someone else telling me how I should act because of the sins of past generations that I've no control over? Nope.

No.

Someone pointing out the truth of the present society that you live in - that you and I are a part of. What you do with that information, once you are aware of it, is entirely your call.

[TheBitch]

So, I'm racist?

 

Fucks sake. 

[skend04]

Interesting contribution, but again, the defence does not seem to be focused on what she actually said that L'Oreal decided was in collision with their values (whatever they may be).

 

"Honestly I don't have energy to talk about the racial violence of white people any more. Yes ALL white people.

"Because most of ya'll don't even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of colour.

"Your entire existence is drenched in racism."

"When I stated that 'all white people are racist', I was addressing that fact that western society as a whole, is a system rooted in white supremacy - designed to benefit, prioritise and protect white people before anyone of any other race."

 

 

I would say that both the article you linked and Bergdorf confuse racism and colonialism, often deliberately when it suits the point they are making, and don't realize there is a fundamental difference between historical legacy of colonialism and racism, conscious and unconscious racial bias they talk about and "a system rooted in white supremacy - designed to benefit, prioritise and protect white people before anyone of any other race"..

 

Now this part I don't fully comprehend "ya'll don't even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of colour".. I get privilege and success if she means "as a race in former colonial powers and countries which parts of the economy relied on slavery", but what does she mean by "existence"?

I'm guessing she is probably questioning what kind of America would have existed without the mass importation of blacks over 3 centuries and what kind of UK would have existed without nearly 5 centuries of genocidal activities across the globe.

[Rico1304]

I'm guessing she is probably questioning what kind of America would have existed without the mass importation of blacks over 3 centuries and what kind of UK would have existed without nearly 5 centuries of genocidal activities across the globe.

This is the bit I get confused by. There were no righteous countries in this story, the slave trade was universal. I heard the other day that Genghis Khan killled about 10% of the world population (I'll check that out now).

[Rico1304]

No.

Someone pointing out the truth of the present society that you live in - that you and I are a part of. What you do with that information, once you are aware of it, is entirely your call.

No

 

She's saying if I don't protest I'm complicit.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Its weird that he didn't reply to your comment but replied to one after naw who I am I kidding that is not weird at all.

Dick.

 

I didn't reply to SaSaS because I had nothing to add. He was focusing on the specific wording that Bergdorf used: I'd already said I'm not sure about her wording, so I'm not going to waste time picking it apart and trying to defend or explain it.

 

The interesting bits of this debate are the facts: nobody is born racist; racism is a learned behaviour; people learn behaviours, to a large extent, by fitting in with the norms of society; the norms of our society (and that of the USA, Europe, Australia, etc.) are racist against black and brown people, as they have been since the days of colonialism and slavery; the notion that white/male/heterosexual/able-bodied/Christian/cis is "normal" is deeply ingrained in the minds of just about everyone in our society; these attitudes have direct, daily social and economic impacts on people who don't fit that "normal" model.

 

Them's the facts.

 

What you do with them is your call.

[Jockey]

Someone else telling me how I should act because of the sins of past generations that I've no control over? Nope.

 

Don't mind acting a particular way because of the heroics of past generations though do we? Churchill, Nelson and all that stuff. 

[SasaS]

I'm guessing she is probably questioning what kind of America would have existed without the mass importation of blacks over 3 centuries and what kind of UK would have existed without nearly 5 centuries of genocidal activities across the globe.

 

I think her premise is that (western) European colonialism was based on some innate murderous racism of the white race, not on rapacious opportunism which was then rationalized or "normalized" through the concept of white superiority. Colonization of technologically / militarily weaker civilizations and nations was always universal, and the treatment of other nations by white colonizers was different, depending on the level of their potential resistance and technological and organizational development, not on the shade of their skin.

[s(k)aturation]

I think her premise is that (western) European colonialism was based on some innate murderous racism of the white race, not on rapacious opportunism which was then rationalized or "normalized" through the concept of white superiority. Colonization of technologically / militarily weaker civilizations and nations was always universal, and the treatment of other nations by white colonizers was different, depending on the level of their potential resistance and technological and organizational development, not on the shade of their skin.

 

 

The "modern" slave trade was started by the Vikings.

 

And the oppressed were white, mainly Slavs.  Indeed, by adding an "e", it's how the word "slave" came to be.

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

Arab Slave Traders/Ottoman Empire/ Barbary Coast/ White Slavery/Pre European Slavery/Millions of Christians/ Jumpers for goalposts

[Rico1304]

Don't mind acting a particular way because of the heroics of past generations though do we? Churchill, Nelson and all that stuff.

I think I can count on the fingers of no hands the number of times my behaviour has been changed by Churchill or Nelson.

[cloggypop]

Brilliant

 

https://www.vg247.com/2017/09/08/south-park-the-fractured-but-whole-becomes-a-harder-game-when-you-play-as-a-black-character/

[Jockey]

I think I can count on the fingers of no hands the number of times my behaviour has been changed by Churchill or Nelson.

 

I wasn't really talking about your personally. More the general emphasis upon past deeds, which seems fine - but not past sins, which should be kept in the past. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

No

 

She's saying if I don't protest I'm complicit.

Complicit in what goes on here and now. Nobody is holding you accountable for the sins of the past, just pointing out that you are still a beneficiary of the world that colonialism and slavery built.

[Jose Jones]

The "modern" slave trade was started by the Vikings.

 

And the oppressed were white, mainly Slavs. Indeed, by adding an "e", it's how the word "slave" came to be.

Learn something everyday on here.

Where did the Vikings get the Slavs? Over land? Or sailing through the med?

[Pureblood]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41191311

 

People from black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) backgrounds make up 25% of the prison population in England and Wales and 41% of the youth justice system, despite these groups being 14% of the general population, the review says.

[Jockey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41191311

 

People from black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) backgrounds make up 25% of the prison population in England and Wales and 41% of the youth justice system, despite these groups being 14% of the general population, the review says.

 

Yes, but what does that have to do with 'me'?