Go fuck yourselves FSG

[MLB]

And if you don't like the example of an unproven manager in Germany enjoying great success, how about Wenger coming to Arsenal from the J-League, having being sacked in his previous stint in European management? Or Guardiola getting the Barca job after 1 year coaching their B team? Or Rafa going to Valencia with more sackings than trophies on his CV? Or Allegri winning fuck all before going to Milan and winning the league? Or Conte doing the same at Juventus? Or Mourinho getting the Porto job with less than a full season in management?

 

 

 

You should post more.

[xerxes]

The irony being that Dortmund appointed a no mark from the 2nd division (having got his team relegated the season before) as their manager and one of the elite he outwitted there was Van Gaal, who was sacked by Bayern as the unglamorous, unproven and under-qualified Klopp led his team to the title.

 

Does that make it a blueprint?

 

Should we have appointed Aidy Boothroyd?

[xerxes]

I understood it was all drivel, thanks.

It's a shame you don't work on your comprehension a bit- you would learn something.:P

 

As usual, you can't stand the heat.;)

[xerxes]

And if you don't like the example of an unproven manager in Germany enjoying great success, how about Wenger coming to Arsenal from the J-League, having being sacked in his previous stint in European management? Or Guardiola getting the Barca job after 1 year coaching their B team? Or Rafa going to Valencia with more sackings than trophies on his CV? Or Allegri winning fuck all before going to Milan and winning the league? Or Conte doing the same at Juventus? Or Mourinho getting the Porto job with less than a full season in management?

 

All good examples.

 

Are you suggesting that Rodgers has the same pedigree as the above? it is significant that the only English example is Wenger, and he has won a league title and cup in France before coming to Arsenal- he was no novice.

 

Inspired managerial appointments tend to be about what a manager is about to do, rather than simply what they have done.

 

I won't deconstruct your other examples because anything is possible. I like Rodgers and am happy to back him- but everyone knows he is a long odds against shot.

[cuppatea]

All good examples.

 

Are you suggesting that Rodgers has the same pedigree as the above?

 

He may or may not, it remains to be seen, but I am suggesting that those names had no real pedigree to speak of when they were given big jobs at big clubs and would have been dismissed as potential candidates here by our fans.

 

it is significant that the only English example is Wenger, and he has won a league title and cup in France before coming to Arsenal- he was no novice.

 

Is that not to do with the mentality in England? Top clubs in Europe routinely appoint relatively unproven managers, yet we think we're above doing the same over here. There's a belief in England that you're not allowed to manage a big club unless you've already done so before, so you've got to go make a name for yourself at the Milan's/Dortmund's/Barcelona's of the world before you earn the right to a big job here.

 

Inspired managerial appointments tend to be about what a manager is about to do, rather than simply what they have done.

 

And yet Rogers is being dismissed not based on his ability, tactics, philosophies, man-management, eye for talent etc but on the lack of trophies or big jobs in his past (same with Moyes at Man Utd). Can you imagine the reaction on here if we had appointed any of the names I mentioned when Milan, Juventus, Barcelona, Arsenal, Porto, Dortmund etc did?

 

I won't deconstruct your other examples because anything is possible. I like Rodgers and am happy to back him- but everyone knows he is a long odds against shot.

 

Any manager would be a long shot for success here (assuming success is winning the league), as the odds are stacked against us but FSG had the chance to run the rule over several candidates before opting for Rogers and I think it's a bit unfair on him and them to suggest that shows proof of a lack of ambition.

[clangers]

And if you don't like the example of an unproven manager in Germany enjoying great success, how about Wenger coming to Arsenal from the J-League, having being sacked in his previous stint in European management? Or Guardiola getting the Barca job after 1 year coaching their B team? Or Rafa going to Valencia with more sackings than trophies on his CV? Or Allegri winning fuck all before going to Milan and winning the league? Or Conte doing the same at Juventus? Or Mourinho getting the Porto job with less than a full season in management?

 

Exceptions rather than the rule though.

 

I'm much more positive than I was about Rodgers after the 2nd half of last season. Given the position we're in it's still a big ask for him.

[xerxes]

He may or may not, it remains to be seen, but I am suggesting that those names had no real pedigree to speak of when they were given big jobs at big clubs and would have been dismissed as potential candidates here by our fans.

 

 

 

Is that not to do with the mentality in England? Top clubs in Europe routinely appoint relatively unproven managers, yet we think we're above doing the same over here. There's a belief in England that you're not allowed to manage a big club unless you've already done so before, so you've got to go make a name for yourself at the Milan's/Dortmund's/Barcelona's of the world before you earn the right to a big job here.

 

 

 

And yet Rogers is being dismissed not based on his ability, tactics, philosophies, man-management, eye for talent etc but on the lack of trophies or big jobs in his past (same with Moyes at Man Utd). Can you imagine the reaction on here if we had appointed any of the names I mentioned when Milan, Juventus, Barcelona, Arsenal, Porto, Dortmund etc did?

 

 

 

Any manager would be a long shot for success here (assuming success is winning the league), as the odds are stacked against us but FSG had the chance to run the rule over several candidates before opting for Rogers and I think it's a bit unfair on him and them to suggest that shows proof of a lack of ambition.

You make some good points, many of which I agree with.

 

However the core proposition, that Rodgers is a speculative long odds against punt ( who might come off) is difficult to argue against.

 

Not only did Wenger have a league title under his belt when he went to Arsenal, Guardiola had spent a decade at Barca before as one of the finest players of his generation in the world as well as playing in Serie A, Klopp played 338 senior games finishing in the Bundesliga. None of that guarantees success, all three had significantly better football pedigrees than Rodgers.

 

I think the claim that continental clubs routinely appoint “unproven” managers is misleading. The greater number of DOF’s mean that coaching is more important than managing, and continental players take their coaching badges far more seriously than ours do at a younger age. Vialli memorably described English football as a game, and Italian football as a job.

 

My concern regarding Rodgers is his lack of playing experience, management experience and coaching experience at the highest level. I think that is fair comment.

 

FSG, in my view, appointed him because an inexperienced man would be easier for FSG and Ayre to handle. He was about the only candidate whom Ayre could beat for PL experience. Of course that was not the only reason. He did well at Swansea, he plays good football, and he survived against the odds last season beating KK’s league record last season. He also handled “Jaws 2” well. But we all know that this amounts to a work experience appointment- one which could come good if Rodgers can convert good intentions into results, but probably won’t.

[Guest San Don]

You make some good points, many of which I agree with.

 

However the core proposition, that Rodgers is a speculative long odds against punt ( who might come off) is difficult to argue against.

 

Not only did Wenger have a league title under his belt when he went to Arsenal, Guardiola had spent a decade at Barca before as one of the finest players of his generation in the world as well as playing in Serie A, Klopp played 338 senior games finishing in the Bundesliga. None of that guarantees success, all three had significantly better football pedigrees than Rodgers.

 

I think the claim that continental clubs routinely appoint “unproven” managers is misleading. The greater number of DOF’s mean that coaching is more important than managing, and continental players take their coaching badges far more seriously than ours do at a younger age. Vialli memorably described English football as a game, and Italian football as a job.

 

My concern regarding Rodgers is his lack of playing experience, management experience and coaching experience at the highest level. I think that is fair comment.

 

FSG, in my view, appointed him because an inexperienced man would be easier for FSG and Ayre to handle. He was about the only candidate whom Ayre could beat for PL experience. Of course that was not the only reason. He did well at Swansea, he plays good football, and he survived against the odds last season beating KK’s league record last season. He also handled “Jaws 2” well. But we all know that this amounts to a work experience appointment- one which could come good if Rodgers can convert good intentions into results, but probably won’t.

 

I think you'll find Vialli's reference to a 'job' means as in working for the mob given, all the fixing and corruption scandals to hit Italian football.

 

You post such drivel it is truely amazing.

[Dr. J]

Whatever their lack of knowedge about football the FSG people are not stupid. Rodgers sold himself and his ideas about football to them at the same time they made clear the business model they intended to pursue - which included not carrying the wages of has beens and never wases.

 

Football pedigree?! Remember Hodgo, how about Souness? Rodgers went into the interview process like a man who wanted the job. He pitched himself and FSG bought it. Let's see how he does this season.

[dennis tooth]

Arsenal got lucky with Wenger and it was in more ahppier childlike times before the corporates and sheiks and barons etc got involved its much more cutthroat now.

 

We may get lucky with Rogers but we didnt even complete our own candidate interview process, we are utterly incompetent and this is how we have been from day one with shit like this, the Reina deal just being the latest panic decision that makes no sense.

 

Why people, in the face of no evidence to the contracy continue to be so deluded I have no idea, this is the same mentality that gave Roy Evans, Greame Souness or Roy Hodgson a free pass to piss around for 5 years.

 

Why cant we just get a top class coach in, pay a bit over the odds to get him and sit back, cos no matter what money they have they will get us up there?

[dennis tooth]

Remember when we decided we needed a manager, any manager, drew up an apparent shortlist, offered it to the first interviewee, Martinez, who then knocked it back because of the DOF stipulation, then by the 2nd candidate agreed to drop it, then offered the job without even bothering to complete the process then went back on the DOF idea when we realised our new manager was signing absolute shite for silly money. This was on the back of us deciding to sack our last manager halfway thru the season before we won two cups and finished 7th only to finish cupless and seventh.

 

 

And dont give me that 9 more points shite, each season is different, different teams, differing circumstance, its places that matter not points at the end of the day.

[dennis tooth]

This is how we arrived at Rogers, this is how we shit about with these people.

 

And suddenly the 2nd choice is the messiah and our first choice is shite cos he got wigan relegated and is at the shite now.

 

But this is how our owners roll.

[xerxes]

I think you'll find Vialli's reference to a 'job' means as in working for the mob given, all the fixing and corruption scandals to hit Italian football.

 

You post such drivel it is truely amazing.

 

The wonder is not that you can't comprehend what is written in threads, it is that you can read at all.

 

Perhaps there should be a cartoon section for you? But you always give us a laugh anyway.:P

[MLB]

Dennis Tooth has really gone off the deep end these last few days. Calm down mate, it's only football.

[xerxes]

Whatever their lack of knowedge about football the FSG people are not stupid.

 

So if you don't know anything about football, would it not make sense to appoint people who do?

 

Would you appoint a manager with one year's experience, or a CEO who had previously managed Huddersfield Town? Would you not appoint one of the most knowledgeable people about LFC and football as a non-exec director in KK?

 

But if your ambition was NOT to compete at the highest level, but instead to manage the asset with the minimum of risk, steady as she goes, perhaps you would? They won't rock the boat and are easy to replace.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

We had Hodgson followed by Comolli and Dalglish, surely there's plenty of experience and knowledge there. Trying a young, very well thought of coach and manager is something other clubs have had success with. Including us in the past.

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

Dennis Tooth has really gone off the deep end these last few days. Calm down mate, it's only football.

 

Ain't that the tooth.

[dennis tooth]

We had Hodgson followed by Comolli and Dalglish, surely there's plenty of experience and knowledge there. Trying a young, very well thought of coach and manager is something other clubs have had success with. Including us in the past.

 

Hodgson has not had top level experience, yeeno the one that counts but throw him in there anyway you might make half a point about it,

 

Commolli has not either, hes always been at mid level clubs and hes always ripped them off, we handed him his most generous package yet.

 

Maybe its the clowns who are appointing these people? Common theme?

 

Dalglish they didnt persevere with even in the face of his acheivements.

 

No one of any sanity was calling for his head, once he got sacked the FSG mongs went into overdrive to support the move.

[dennis tooth]

So if you don't know anything about football, would it not make sense to appoint people who do?

 

Would you appoint a manager with one year's experience, or a CEO who had previously managed Huddersfield Town? Would you not appoint one of the most knowledgeable people about LFC and football as a non-exec director in KK?

 

But if your ambition was NOT to compete at the highest level, but instead to manage the asset with the minimum of risk, steady as she goes, perhaps you would? They won't rock the boat and are easy to replace.

 

See I almost agreed with u until that last paragraph.

 

Its ruined your argument and makes anyone who criticise FSG get lumped in with mongs like you.

 

Why would they have an ambition NOT to compete at the highest level.

 

Theres no conspiracy you idiot.

 

The issue is their total naivity and incompetence.

 

Lets talk about that, lets not have a fucking idiot contest who can come up with the 'not wanting to compete with the big boys stuff'. They arent that clever, its actually an arguement that puts them in a better light that they deserve. It makes them look as if they planned the whole thing, rather than swaying from one calamity to the next, which is whats actually been happening.

From the hanging Suarez and Kenny out to dry to appointing buffoons like Commolli on scandalous wedges to sanctioning Carroll I could go on and on and on and I already have.

[Josef Svejk]

We had Hodgson followed by Comolli and Dalglish, surely there's plenty of experience and knowledge there. Trying a young, very well thought of coach and manager is something other clubs have had success with. Including us in the past.

 

Us? Who? Dalglish first time around?

[dennis tooth]

Dennis Tooth has really gone off the deep end these last few days. Calm down mate, it's only football.

 

I care mate, thats all, Ive got a lot of bullshit to cut through. Eventually people might at least understand the point Im making, I want someone to point out that Im incorrect and we actually do have people in charge who know what they are doing. Im waiting for that moment when someone will point something out that makes me realise Im chatting shit, all I get is apologists such as Numero saying we've spent X amount, unwilling to listen to the fact that we've only spent what has come in, zero net.

Similarly when it comes to how much FSG have spent, buying the club and giving it a loan but to wilfully ignore the deals such as the £80m Standard charted, the TV money, the Warrior money.

 

Peoples minds seem to be one way traffic. They have done a lot of decent, good things but its all being undone by having the FSG fuck fairy visit again.

[xerxes]

See I almost agreed with u until that last paragraph.

 

Its ruined your argument and makes anyone who criticise FSG get lumped in with mongs like you.

 

Why would they have an ambition NOT to compete at the highest level.

 

Theres no conspiracy you idiot.

 

The issue is their total naivity and incompetence.

 

Lets talk about that, lets not have a fucking idiot contest who can come up with the 'not wanting to compete with the big boys stuff'. They arent that clever, its actually an arguement that puts them in a better light that they deserve. It makes them look as if they planned the whole thing, rather than swaying from one calamity to the next, which is whats actually been happening.

From the hanging Suarez and Kenny out to dry to appointing buffoons like Commolli on scandalous wedges to sanctioning Carroll I could go on and on and on and I already have.

 

And I almost agreed with you (which I suspect worries both of us).

 

I don’t see conspiracy. You ask “Why would they have an ambition NOT to compete at the highest level.” The answer is because they don’t want to pay to compete at the highest level. FSG is an investment club. There is no return on spending £100m’s on a title tilt when four other domestic clubs can spend more.

 

We agree that FSG are naive. They are not incompetent, they do what they do, risk averse investment, well. But I do agree that their lack of experience is painful and has cost us, and them ,dear.

[Coro]

 

 

 

I'm not leaving it out. If anything, it only strengthens the case that we're spending. I'm not arguing this side because I'm some FSG fanatic, I'm arguing it because it's actually what happened. You talk about critical thinking, but you seem to apply it yourself. Critical thinking doesn't mean 'be negative towards everything', it's a way of discovering the validity of something by analysing empirical evidence. Not criticising a group for every decision they make, regardless of what happens.

 

 

You misrepresent when you say people are 'being negative towards everything' when really pointing out the fuck ups of those in charge doesn't equate to that. A sequence of events has led to genuine complaints and concerns. It's not for you to gloss over these concerns or to put a spin on them.

 

I've got a fair idea of what's been spent. You don't need to strengthen the idea because it's clear we have spent money. I know who they've employed to spend it and the reasons why they were employed. I also know the fees we received for players like Torres, Babel and Meireles helped us to pay out record fees for other players. I don't care why you put a spin on that or whether you're a fanatic or not all I know is what you're doing is pointless to me and it obstructs any chance of critical thinking.

 

Words like 'analysing empirical evidence' seem impressive on the face of it for the less discerning but in reality you provide nothing of the sort. I share my concerns and complaints, I substantiate them as best I can with the evidence at hand, there is basis to the pessimism yet I remain cautiously optimistic. I think it's the healthiest position I can adopt.

 

There's a middle ground between incessant negativity and baseless optimism. Your 'analysis' skips past or glosses over key details.

 

For example, is there a positive I'm missing in the decision to appoint Comolli and the reasoning behind that decision? Should I assume they have learned their lesson even though Ian Ayre is now in charge of the day to day running of the club? When does the Suarez racism case stop being an example of their administration? Or the decision to leave the team with only one recognised striker for half a season? These events and these decisions will only colour future decisions they make.

 

Just a couple of examples and I'd genuinely like to know when does it become healthy for us fans to strike these things from memory.

 

criticising a group for every decision they make, regardless of what happens

 

You continually misrepresent what people are doing. This corners you into a mentality where 'they' as in FSG 'can do no wrong'.

 

It's possible to maintain a positive outlook whilst acknowledging the mistakes that have been made and the gap between supporter ambitions and those of the owners.

[xerxes]

We had Hodgson followed by Comolli and Dalglish, surely there's plenty of experience and knowledge there. Trying a young, very well thought of coach and manager is something other clubs have had success with. Including us in the past.

 

I think there was a case for Rodgers, which is why I am happy to support him despite my reservations.

 

Most appointments in football swing from one extreme to another. We had a foreigner, so we go English with Hodgson. We had inexperience at the elite level with Hodgson so we go for that experience with KK. We had someone who was out of touch with modern football in KK so we go to someone who is in Rodgers. Next time around we wil go for someone experienced but not a Liverpool man, then we will go for someone who is a Liverpool man but is not experienced- Carragher, and so it goes.............

[Ranxerox]

well in any event its a big year for both Rodgers and Ayre. Especially so if they manage to hang on to Suarez. I would expect Euro qualification would be the minimum for them to legitimately claim progress.