Go fuck yourselves FSG

[Guest San Don]

If ever we needed confirmation of our reality, we are getting it from Suarez.

 

When I think about it, FSG are no longer the problem.

 

It is now more fundamental - it is the fans acceptance of this initially gradual but now accelerating decline.

 

It is the fan's gullibility in buying into PR bullkshit from FSG and Rogers.

There should be revolution on the streets around anfield.

 

The longer fans accept this, the more we dishonour our history and the work of great men such as Shanks and Paisley.

 

The damage was done under the other two cowboys. It can take just one season to stop a club progressing on the field. Two seasons and you're almost talking terminal decline.

 

We are where we are. We still think of ourselves as a big club (which we are). The harsh realities are players dont see us that way. The CL is the b all and end all to players. In it, and you're something, out of it and you're no one.

 

We've been out of it for 3, 4 seasons?

 

The wierd thing is, the club needs shit loads of money spending to bring in players of the quality we need. But in the next breath, people point to downing and carroll as expensive mistakes. But, the type of player we need, 30m, 40m, 50m, are just on a different level.

[Soleilrouge]

So forcibly remove the manager and owners? Just as we're starting to recover from years of bad ownership, now's the time to have a revolution? We shouldn't stay the course and continue rebuilding, we should oust everybody from the club and... what?

 

 

I don't see any recovery happening - but then that's the problem - many of our fans do and they are deluded and out of touch with reality - and they are many - and they feed and support the continuing malaise - and you are one of them - failing to call out FSG for their lack of ambition

[Soleilrouge]

What/who are you planning on protesting against, Soleilrouge?

 

 

The end game here is to force FSG out unless they show the substance of real ambition.

 

As soon as the fans turn, the value of their investment starts to disintegrate and it requires urgent action from them. It will drive down any sale price and will also demonstrate to any new owners the requirements of our fanbase. Even H&G got this bit.

 

This requires a majority of the fan base to understand the reality and unacceptability of current status and agree to act on it.

 

At the moment, there are too many apologists.

 

From where we stand today, this requires constant strenuous argument with the apologists.

 

All it takes is for good men to do nothing....

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I don't see any recovery happening - but then that's the problem - many of our fans do and they are deluded and out of touch with reality - and they are many - and they feed and support the continuing malaise - and you are one of them - failing to call out FSG for their lack of ambition

 

Sorry about that. Please accept my humble apologies for not outing FSG for their lack of ambition.

 

Back in my deluded, reality devoid world, I'm seeing record levels of transfer spending, total modernisation of the way the club operates financially, total modernisation of the way players are recruited, total squad and wagebill overhaul, the reintroduction of an attacking playing ethos which runs from the youth to senior team, and finally an ownership serious about redeveloping the stadium. All in 33 months. The unambitious cunts.

[Major Tom]

The end game here is to force FSG out unless they show the substance of real ambition.

 

 

All a bit grey, really.

 

What defines real ambition? And in what timeframe are you talking about?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

This requires a majority of the fan base to understand the reality and unacceptability of current status and agree to act on it.

 

Have a word with SoS. Try to organise a boycott.

[Soleilrouge]

Sorry about that. Please accept my humble apologies for not outing FSG for their lack of ambition.

 

Back in my deluded, reality devoid world, I'm seeing record levels of transfer spending, total modernisation of the way the club operates financially, total modernisation of the way players are recruited, total squad and wagebill overhaul, the reintroduction of an attacking playing ethos which runs from the youth to senior team, and finally an ownership serious about redeveloping the stadium. All in 33 months. The unambitious cunts.

 

keep swallowing the bullshit

 

The club continues to decline at an alarming rate

 

To the point of no return

 

:Serious about develeoping the stadium

:An attacking ethos

 

My God its worse than I thought

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

keep swallowing the bullshit

 

The club continues to decline at an alarming rate

 

To the point of no return

 

:Serious about develeoping the stadium

:An attacking ethos

 

My God its worse than I thought

 

Out of interest, what could they do to show ambition?

[The Guest]

All a bit grey, really.

 

What defines real ambition? And in what timeframe are you talking about?

 

What he's basically saying is hire Rafa.

 

It's a load of jumbled up nonsense. They could blow loads of money on players and they wouldn't be showing ambition they would be idiots wasting the clubs money.

 

His decision was made right after they didn't hire Rafa and he's completely oblivious to it.

 

No owners are going to be perfect and no manager is either. Coming up with a view so transparent in it's motives and then labeling fans gullible because they don't think the same one eyed way is fucking laughable. When I speak to one of my mates who can see the positives Rodgers or FSG bring and can actually give them credit when it is due but think the negatives outweigh them I can actually respect that. When you get dickheads like him just spouting the same shite every time they speak or post it's completely pointless. They've lost the argument already.

[WhiskeyJar]

The end game here is to force FSG out unless they show the substance of real ambition.

 

As soon as the fans turn, the value of their investment starts to disintegrate and it requires urgent action from them. It will drive down any sale price and will also demonstrate to any new owners the requirements of our fanbase. Even H&G got this bit.

 

This requires a majority of the fan base to understand the reality and unacceptability of current status and agree to act on it.

 

My two cents:

 

At the start of the 2010–11 season Liverpool was on the verge of bankruptcy and the club's creditors asked the High Court to allow the sale of the club, overruling the wishes of Hicks and Gillett. John W. Henry, owner of the Boston Red Sox and of New England Sports Ventures, bid successfully for the club and took ownership in October 2010.

 

FSG have done well. We have bought quality in January and we hope the young guns we bought now will be equally as good.

 

They plan to re-develop Anfield and they seem to be giving the manager the benefit of doubt when it comes to players.

 

They are being careful with their investment which is completely understandable.

 

I think our fans look at the Sugar Daddies of other clubs and wish we had one to get the best players now. Does not work like that in reality I am afraid.

 

The following is taken from wiki:

 

Soon after Liverpool lost 2–1 to non-league Worcester City in the 1958–59 FA Cup, Bill Shankly was appointed manager. Upon his arrival he released 24 players and converted a boot storage room at Anfield into a room where the coaches could discuss strategy; here, Shankly and other "Boot Room" members Joe Fagan, Reuben Bennett, and Bob Paisley began reshaping the team.The club was promoted back into the First Division in 1962 and won it in 1964, for the first time in 17 years. In 1965, the club won its first FA Cup. In 1966, the club won the First Division but lost to Borussia Dortmund in the European Cup Winners' Cup final.

 

Are not going through the rebuilding stage just like so many years ago?

P.S: Not as drastic as back then, but still the same process.

Edited July 10, 2013 by WhiskeyJar

[Soleilrouge]

What he's basically saying is hire Rafa.

 

It's a load of jumbled up nonsense. They could blow loads of money on players and they wouldn't be showing ambition they would be idiots wasting the clubs money.

 

His decision was made right after they didn't hire Rafa and he's completely oblivious to it.

 

No owners are going to be perfect and no manager is either. Coming up with a view so transparent in it's motives and then labeling fans gullible because they don't think the same one eyed way is fucking laughable. When I speak to one of my mates who can see the positives Rodgers or FSG bring and can actually give them credit when it is due but think the negatives outweigh them I can actually respect that. When you get dickheads like him just spouting the same shite every time they speak or post it's completely pointless. They've lost the argument already.

 

 

 

What you are saying is I can tolerate the continued decline of the club (to the point where our only world class player says he would prefer Arsenal) while we allow these guys try to rebuild this club on the cheap with an unproven manager and there being no evidence of any real substance that their strategy is improving things.

 

It's too late for you too - you've swallowed hook, line and sinker.

 

Any truly big club who ahv found themselves in this position have done one thing - invest heavily and urgently in world class players, get back in champions league and work from there - generally with a truly world clasmanager.

 

Our current response is the following:

 

We bought soem expensive players recently who turned out to be shit so lets not try that

 

Lets buy some young players cheaply and keep our fingers crossed

 

Lets appoint a manager that fits that will live with that strategy

 

Re Rafa, I am on record as saying their failure to even talk to rafa demonstrated their bullshit strategy - not the failure to appoint Rafa. I do confirm I am of the view that Rafa is better than Rogers but thats hardly heresy and its besides the point in this argument.

 

I am of the view that their failure to appoint a proven manager with the funds and credibility to rebuild quickly is proof of their lack of ambition

 

Our only truly world class player is effectively now telling us he would prefer to be almost anywhere than with this club

 

He is telling us all he does not believe the club is going anywhere in the near future and I agree with him

 

No serious player with ambition is likely to want to talk to us

 

Urgent and serious investment in the playing squad is required now

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

We've spent record amounts - more than we ever have before - and broken our transfer record twice in two days. Yes, the 'experienced' people they trusted to spend it didn't do so very well, but can you explain how that's unambitious?

[Major Tom]

What you are saying is I can tolerate the continued decline of the club (to the point where our only world class player says he would prefer Arsenal)

 

Where/when has Suarez said he prefers Arsenal? You're making it up, aren't you?

 

You're being a bit of a drama queen, really, and making things up certainly doesn't help your argument.

[The Guest]

What you are saying is I can tolerate the continued decline of the club (to the point where our only world class player says he would prefer Arsenal) while we allow these guys try to rebuild this club on the cheap with an unproven manager and there being no evidence of any real substance that their strategy is improving things.

 

It's too late for you too - you've swallowed hook, line and sinker.

 

Any truly big club who ahv found themselves in this position have done one thing - invest heavily and urgently in world class players, get back in champions league and work from there - generally with a truly world clasmanager.

 

Our current response is the following:

 

We bought soem expensive players recently who turned out to be shit so lets not try that

 

Lets buy some young players cheaply and keep our fingers crossed

 

Lets appoint a manager that fits that will live with that strategy

 

Re Rafa, I am on record as saying their failure to even talk to rafa demonstrated their bullshit strategy - not the failure to appoint Rafa. I do confirm I am of the view that Rafa is better than Rogers but thats hardly heresy and its besides the point in this argument.

 

I am of the view that their failure to appoint a proven manager with the funds and credibility to rebuild quickly is proof of their lack of ambition

 

Our only truly world class player is effectively now telling us he would prefer to be almost anywhere than with this club

 

He is telling us all he does not believe the club is going anywhere in the near future and I agree with him

 

No serious player with ambition is likely to want to talk to us

 

Urgent and serious investment in the playing squad is required now

 

Just go back and read this. Read the absolute rubbish you have put and not the opinionated stuff. The lines like Suarez has said he prefers Arsenal and Suarez would prefer to be anywhere but here. He hasn't said anything like that.

 

Separate to this the fact of the matter is players of his calibre all over the world fuck off to Madrid and Barcelona every year. Ronaldo did it after winning all sorts with Man Utd. Alonso did it after a great season with us where we finished 2nd. I've got no doubt at some point he would being trying to go there if we were winning the league every year. It's no real indicator for anything any more.

 

You are living in cloud cuckoo land with the rest of the stuff. I haven't fell hook line and sinker for anything. I am just realistic. The jury is still out for me but I'm not just going to criticise absolutely everything they do and blame everything on them and Rodgers when some things are out of their control. Things could easily turn sour and they could start acting like the previous two but they aren't. Not by a long shot.

 

What do you want them to do? Spend hundreds of millions of pounds like City and Chelsea? I'm sure you would, most fans would. Unfortunately in the real world it doesn't happen like that. Those clubs won the lottery and very few owners have the money to do that. On top of that you have got the problem that we aren't in the champions league anymore. We can't attract players that we once did.

 

Your answer is obviously just to throw money at it. Unfortunately they actually tried that for a season or so and it failed, dramatically. To me it just looks like you are stamping your feet like a brat because things haven't happened as you want. You have the most extreme of views and are probably their on your own. That pretty much says it all for me.

[dickie mint]

What you are saying is I can tolerate the continued decline of the club (to the point where our only world class player says he would prefer Arsenal) while we allow these guys try to rebuild this club on the cheap with an unproven manager and there being no evidence of any real substance that their strategy is improving things.

 

It's too late for you too - you've swallowed hook, line and sinker.

 

Any truly big club who ahv found themselves in this position have done one thing - invest heavily and urgently in world class players, get back in champions league and work from there - generally with a truly world clasmanager.

 

Our current response is the following:

 

We bought soem expensive players recently who turned out to be shit so lets not try that

 

Lets buy some young players cheaply and keep our fingers crossed

 

Lets appoint a manager that fits that will live with that strategy

 

Re Rafa, I am on record as saying their failure to even talk to rafa demonstrated their bullshit strategy - not the failure to appoint Rafa. I do confirm I am of the view that Rafa is better than Rogers but thats hardly heresy and its besides the point in this argument.

 

I am of the view that their failure to appoint a proven manager with the funds and credibility to rebuild quickly is proof of their lack of ambition

 

Our only truly world class player is effectively now telling us he would prefer to be almost anywhere than with this club

 

He is telling us all he does not believe the club is going anywhere in the near future and I agree with him

 

No serious player with ambition is likely to want to talk to us

 

Urgent and serious investment in the playing squad is required now

 

 

 

Well said mate,it proves how much some know about the club when you look at how many replies are on the Dave Hickson post,they would rather praise cissokho and want him signed because he put the Five fingered gesture up to the Mancs

[TheHowieLama]

 

Any truly big club who ahv found themselves in this position have done one thing - invest heavily and urgently in world class players, get back in champions league and work from there - generally with a truly world clasmanager.

 

 

In England?

[Neil G]

He has had the same ethos for years, he even spoke about it in December. Sometimes it seems like you live in the twilight zone. It's just accepted that Wenger does this. He has always been like this. It's a precedent that goes back for many, many years. Whatever, though. You're clearly living in a totally different reality to me, where he's gagging to spend money but can't because of the debt situation. I mean, it's not like they've racked up over 120m in cash. Most of which is just sitting there, doing nothing.

 

 

He has always had the same ethos of not paying over the odds for players. That's rather different from being prepared to forego a huge transfer kitty while his best players form a queue for the exit door.

 

If I'm living in a different reality, and if it's so manifestly obvious that Wenger has continued to sit on this pile of cash for the last two years, perhaps you can explain his phrase "we only had money recently" from the piece I linked to on the official Arsenal website.

 

 

It's not like the CEO/Owners have come out, time and again, and said there's money to spend if Wenger wants it.

 

 

That's where we'll just have to part company I guess. You're disposed to taking statements from club officials and owners at face value, I'm not.

 

 

Great, let's see them them saying the Stadium is the reason Wenger isn't spending. At least without them being shouted down by many other fans. If there are, they're not numerous and they're total fucking idiots from another dimension. Still, I'd like to see 'plenty' of them saying what you're saying.

 

 

I'm not saying plenty of them are claiming that the stadium is preventing Wenger from spending. I'm saying that there are plenty of them who aren't claiming that Wenger refuses to spend despite having the money to do so. You said virtually every Arsenal fan was doing this, so I'm pointing out to you that that's clearly not the case.

 

 

The entire overarching point he was making. About spending power generated by a new stadium.

 

The reason we're behind them has little to do with what Arsenal are doing, it's to do with us frittering money away. They do have spending power beyond ours, though; there's surely little debate here?

 

 

I didn't dismiss it, I just didn't see fit to mention it because it's a no-brainer. I don't think there's a single person on here who doesn't want to see us generate more money either from redevelopment or a new stadium. I just think there's more to the debate than boiling it down to "it'll be ace when we have a bigger stadium 'cos we'll have more money."

 

The debate I was having with Xerxes wasn't about the relative spending power of the two clubs, it was about the reason why Arsenal are in the CL and we're not. Which you've repeated yet again here. Surely we've agreed on that enough times to put it to bed now.

 

 

A model doesn't equate to copying. It's a paradigm, there's wiggle room. We're not building a new stadium for a start, and it's not in the same place. The model is the same, the details are different. You seem to think a model means 'exactly the same'. It doesn't.

 

 

No. Just... no.

 

 

No, I don't think a model means exactly the same, but I think how Arsenal have dealt with the spending side of the equation since they've moved is more than a mere detail.

 

If you're talking about paradigms and wiggle room, why is Man United's stadium paradigm so much more different from our plans than Arsenal's?

 

 

'Unless'. Well, we're quite obviously not going to go the route of fucking ourselves just for the fun of it. But, hey... short term thinking has got us this far, what could possibly go wrong. We're talking about different repayment fees, without the desire to hoard cash.

 

 

I've got absolutely no clue what you mean in this bit. What scenario have I raised which qualifies as short-term thinking, or which equates to us "fucking ourselves just for the fun of it"?

 

 

Even if the unlikely situation arrises where we don't do any naming deals (be it stadium, stands, or some kind of sponsorship), don't get a loan from FSG, or go for a loan where we need to start paying it back yesterday, it's still not anywhere near as impactful as Arsenal's level of repayments would be on us. It would be far less than the £20m they pay. Don't forget, Arsenal's £20m in repayments is more than made up by actually being in the stadium.

 

 

You've kind of missed my point here. I was differentiating between financing options where we couldn't possibly use the money for the squad instead, and those where we potentially could. Naming rights, and loans from external investors with deferred repayment arrangements, fall into the former category. FSG putting up the money themselves out of their own assets falls into the latter. If they have the liquidity to do that, then I would prefer to see them strengthen the squad first to get us back into the CL.

 

You can't possibly say for certain how we'll end up financing the redevelopment, or to what extent FSG might decide to do it using money that could be otherwise be spent on the squad. None of us can. FSG may very well not have made those decisions themselves yet, or if they have, they might change their plans if circumstances change. And neither us nor they know what shape we'll be in when the work finally starts – we could be comfortably re-established in the CL, or we could be miles off the top four, looking up at Arsenal outspending us hand over fist, and needing massive investment in the squad just to be in with a shout of catching them.

 

My point is that if, once FSG are in a position to start work on the stadium, they have a choice between spending money on the stadium and spending it on the squad, they'll need to think very carefully about it if we're still not in the CL.

 

 

Something else to remember, if in this scenario you've offered of us paying by wonga loans, is that we don't borrow all the money at once. It's released in stages over the life of the build. We don't need to acquire land in North London, we don't need a full new stadium, we just need some redevelopment work. If we cope their self-sustaning model, we'll be able to spend and generate at the same time.

 

 

Seriously, what the fuck? How did you get that from what I wrote?

 

I want to have a proper debate with you mate, but it's hard when you come out with nonsense like that.

 

 

There's your issue right there, he's a fucking crackpot. I'm with Woolster, I think it's a vital ingredient in how we progress over the next few decades.

 

 

I think it is as well. That's not incompatible with agreeing with the general thrust of Dennis's argument.

 

Dennis hasn't said we shouldn't spend money on the stadium. He's said we should wait until we're in a stronger league position before we divert resources into it that could otherwise be used to strengthen the squad. That's what I'm agreeing with, although I differ from him regarding just how strong that position has to be – I say back in the CL, he (I think) is more or less saying title contenders.

 

Woolster on the other hand has said that we should put half of the Suarez money into the stadium rather than reinvest it in the squad. I think that in our current position, outside the CL and with the prospect of Arsenal finally spending some serious money soon, that would be madness.

[The Woolster]

Woolster on the other hand has said that we should put half of the Suarez money into the stadium rather than reinvest it in the squad. I think that in our current position, outside the CL and with the prospect of Arsenal finally spending some serious money soon, that would be madness.

 

For a start, I don't think our squad is very far off top 4 strength as it stands. I also think that we can afford to spend a net £40-50m on transfers this season (so 2 transfer windows) from our own cash flow, if you add £20m from a sale of Suarez, then £60-£70m is more than enough to put a real challenge in to getting a top 4 place, if not higher. So far our net spend is more or less zero, we could get 3 £20m players for that to add to an already good squad.

[Neil G]

For a start, I don't think our squad is very far off top 4 strength as it stands. I also think that we can afford to spend a net £40-50m on transfers this season (so 2 transfer windows) from our own cash flow, if you add £20m from a sale of Suarez, then £60-£70m is more than enough to put a real challenge in to getting a top 4 place, if not higher. So far our net spend is more or less zero, we could get 3 £20m players for that to add to an already good squad.

 

 

I agree we've got a good squad, but you're looking at us in isolation there. What if Arsenal have just as much to spend as we do if we sell Suarez, and actually spend it? For the first time in years they aren't facing losing any of their key players, and Gazidis and Wenger have both been making noises about there being lots of money available to spend. They can't carry on forever rolling that line out without actually doing it. And unlike us they have CL football to attract players of the calibre of Higuain.

 

And if they still don't splash the cash, then we need to take advantage of that and push the boat out this season to get top four, because we don't know when we'll next have that chance.

 

Besides, I'm not as confident as you are that our net transfer budget will be as high as you've suggested.

[xerxes]

For a start, I don't think our squad is very far off top 4 strength as it stands. I also think that we can afford to spend a net £40-50m on transfers this season (so 2 transfer windows) from our own cash flow, if you add £20m from a sale of Suarez, then £60-£70m is more than enough to put a real challenge in to getting a top 4 place, if not higher. So far our net spend is more or less zero, we could get 3 £20m players for that to add to an already good squad.

 

We haven’t qualified for the CL for four successive seasons. We haven’t even qualified for the EL by leagues position for two seasons. Last season we were 12 points of the CL spot. We may lose our top goal scorer who helped us into a modest seventh position. It is very difficult to argue that we are not “very far off top 4 strength as it stands” as you claim.

 

The problem is, and will continue to be, that the gulf in playing, and financial, terms between us and the top four is considerable, and widens each season that we fail to make progress on and off the pitch. We can’t outspend them in fees and wages, can Brendan and Ayre out-think them?

[PaulMcC]

We should be spending at least 20m net this summer. New tv deal is worth 30m.

 

I dont see how lowering the wage bill is ambitious.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Right, I'm going to step back from that. A lot of it we're simply not going to agree on, which is fine for us to pick through when it's about Liverpool, or Kenny, or FSG, but Arsenal? I think we should knock that on our head and take this sentiment and run with it.

 

I want to have a proper debate with you mate

 

Look, I'm happy to have a proper discussion about the future of the club. It needs to start from a clean slate, though. Going back and forth about Arsenal isn't going to get us very far. It also needs to take into context the situation inherited by FSG, and all the other things they need to do or have needed to do in order to fulfil the objective.

[dennis tooth]

Arsenal are better off with a new stadium, they are making more money than us, and are ahead of us as a result.

 

The numbers always have eluded you, mainly because you don't understand them, and that is ok.

 

 

Now you have admitted the manager has a role to play I'll frame that top quote and send it u so ye can shove it up your arse after you sign for it. Idiot.

 

Which numbers, 14m or 20m?

[dennis tooth]

Right, I'm going to step back from that. A lot of it we're simply not going to agree on, which is fine for us to pick through when it's about Liverpool, or Kenny, or FSG, but Arsenal? I think we should knock that on our head and take this sentiment and run with it.

 

 

 

Look, I'm happy to have a proper discussion about the future of the club. It needs to start from a clean slate, though. Going back and forth about Arsenal isn't going to get us very far. It also needs to take into context the situation inherited by FSG, and all the other things they need to do or have needed to do in order to fulfil the objective.

 

Stop chatting shit and trying to wade in and along with Xerxes getting your arses spanked by your betters and let that be a lesson to you. People know who the real cheifs are cheefin round ere and ye cant ramp with it on the same level with that intellectuality of claimin your opinion is different when in actuality, less your intellectuality adreft of any factual basis.

Cease and withdraw the trutheth knoweth knights are here to administer.

[derykw]

As much as I think we desperately need to increase our capacity to compete with the elite long term, I think it`s a fallacy to say the reason the likes of Arsenal and Utd are consistently ahead of us is because of their stadium capacity.

 

We spend as much on transfers as Utd and certainly more than Arsenal but always lag b ehind them simply because they generally spend their money a lot better than we do.

 

If it just down to the size of a teams stadium then why have Arsenal remained potless At 60,000 Emirates but managed to win 3 titles with the same manager at 38,000 Highbury.