Student clashes - bring it on

[Jose Jones]

So you think the tax payer should fund it?

 

I have kids who in a few years may decide to waste a few years of their lives at University. Do I expect the tax payer to fund it? No, that's why I've been saving since the day they were born. Thankfully we now have a government that is refusing to milk those that work, to fund those that won't.

 

Of course the government (through the tax payer) should fund universities and students to receive higher education – it makes good economic sense in the medium term, and it is economic madness not to do it in the long term.

People who’ve been to university on average earn over 25% more than non-university graduates. Over 40 years of tax paying the investment made in them to attend university is paid back countless times over.

 

People who go to university are in general the next generation of thinkers, innovators and business leaders who will create new technologies and develop business to employ others and generate wealth for the country.

[Malarkey]

Am I right in thinking that if and when the tuition fees do go up, does the value of a degree go up too?

[FrenchEyeGlass]

okay, i dont follow politics as much as i should but guys

 

could you explain to me why the fees need to be increased? how are are doing fine at 3.4k at the moment, if the need to increase this figure nearly 3 fold is so important?

[FrenchEyeGlass]

Am I right in thinking that if and when the tuition fees do go up, does the value of a degree go up too?

 

only in the sense that a lesser percentage of the population will have a degree, maybe

 

in regards to our exit opportunities and starting salaries, no.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

Of course the government (through the tax payer) should fund universities and students to receive higher education – it makes good economic sense in the medium term, and it is economic madness not to do it in the long term.

People who’ve been to university on average earn over 25% more than non-university graduates. Over 40 years of tax paying the investment made in them to attend university is paid back countless times over.

 

People who go to university are in general the next generation of thinkers, innovators and business leaders who will create new technologies and develop business to employ others and generate wealth for the country.

 

This is right on the money.

 

The reaction is going to be interesting when the second round of quantitive easing comes about in the first half of next year.

 

its not realistic for all universities to be free.

 

but every ex-poly/met university and university which is not in the russel group should be free. there is fucking no way somebody should be walking out of salford university with a 36k debt.

[clangers]

It's depressing to see what a mess successive goverments have made of our education system.

 

Firstly everyone should have a right to a higher education free of charge but not necessarily a degree. The last government have sold an idea, a mantra that we've all bought into that everyone should have degree and a place at university. Why? Surely the whole point of university is to educate the academic elite irrespective of background?

 

What we now have is a situation where everyone has to have a degree and every higher education facility has to be a university. What's the result? Effectively a free market in higher education operating within an environment of limited state funding. State funding will always be limited.

 

Universities offer a multitude of by and large meaningless boutique degrees with little career opportunities at the end of them just to win funding. Just to really betray students we'll saddle them with £30k+ debt too.

 

Is there actually anything wrong with offering a range of higher education awards ranging from degrees (academic) through to practical skills? Do we really need a vast generation of media studies students?

 

I'm not sticking this all on the last government, or the current one. It was actually the Tories under Thatcher that began this push to a free market higher educational system (anyone remember Poly's) with the inevitable outcome of students ultimately paying vast amounts for often worthless degrees.

 

It was however interesting to note that last Labour government spent 13 years telling us all we must get a degree and trying to increase the number of students going to university, that was until about 12 months before they left office when bizarrely they started running adverts asking parents to consider whether a degree was really the right route for their children. Why? Because the economic boom of the last decade showed that whilst we're churning out thousands of students with degrees ill fitted to the available labour market, we ended up with hundreds of thousands of economic migrants coming into fill a wide range of skilled jobs that we hadn't bothered to educate our young for, electricians, plumbers anyone?

Edited November 11, 2010 by clangers

[Jose Jones]

Good post that clangers.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

If you promise something that circumstances render undeliverable, it's not lying.

Will you listen to yourself. Just take a step back and read that as if somebody else has written it.

 

In what way are they, to borrow your doublespeak, rendered undeliverable?

 

The flak we are copping over tuition fees is nothing short of disgusting. I am really livid about it, actually.

You're not the only person who is livid about this, that's for sure. Quite what you're livid about, I've no idea. Other than your party taking a hammering for the things it's doing, that is.

 

Are you going to explain how we could get tuition fees abolished with 57 MPs out of 650, really, I'm dying to hear how.

No, but I can explain to you how you can, with a lowly 57 MPs, stop this ridiculous near 300% rise. You know, if you haven't worked it out.

 

You say it's doing your fucking head in, well I can tell you, I am fucking enraged about the shit that is being said about my party. Every single step of the way we have tried to do the right thing, every single time. Now you can disagree with what has been done, but you must be thick as two short planks if you think we have betrayed anyone, sold out or otherwise acted in an unprincipled and underhand manner.

Then I'm as thick as two short planks, SD, because I think what the Liberal Democrats are doing is underhanded and disingenuous. Other than blind tribalism, I can't see why you're not more angry about what the Liberal democrats are doing here.

 

That's not what I'm saying at all. If the Lib Dems had won the election in their own right, keeping the promise to not increase tuition fees would be easy. What I am saying is that coalition means you can't follow through on all your policies, so promising to deliver policies when there's a good chance you won't be able to deliver it due to compromise, is silly.

 

Not according to Clegg in his dismal showing at PMQs. He's saying that he didn't know how bad the financial situation was and, because it's so bad, these are the measures that need to be taken.

 

Compromise generally ends with you getting things you want, not the entire opposite of what you want.

 

Nobody's asking him to love the policy, just to accept it as the least evil that is possible right now. We didn't introduce tuition fees, we have opposed them for a decade and a half, and we have nothing to be ashamed of in defending this policy as the least worst option that we could achieve with 57 MPs out of 650.

 

It is not the least worst option at all, that's a complete canard. Labour are voting against it unanimously. All your MPs have to do is keep their pledge to their voters and it won't pass. That's the least worst option.

[Cardie]

 

That's not what I'm saying at all. If the Lib Dems had won the election in their own right, keeping the promise to not increase tuition fees would be easy. What I am saying is that coalition means you can't follow through on all your policies, so promising to deliver policies when there's a good chance you won't be able to deliver it due to compromise, is silly.

 

You've stuck to your guns for months saying this coalition is a partnership and you're looking forward to implementing your policies now all of a sudden you're too little to make a difference and it's not your fault, you'd fight it if you could.

 

Are the lib dems going to take any accountability or is the plan to defend everything by hiding behind the Tories or blaming it on labour?

 

Before the election you said the Tory-lite were only making policy promises on things you knew you could afford and that's why they weren't empty promises.

[sparta7]

Can somebody rep Numero Nueve and Stu Monty for their ripostes please? I'm all outta love...

[Antynwa]

Am I right in thinking that if and when the tuition fees do go up, does the value of a degree go up too?

 

Depends.

 

We're in limbo. We've got people who have lost their jobs who can't find work, going into education, and even trying to get a degree.

 

Not only that, but more and more people are going to University and people are coming out of Universities with degrees not worth the paper they are printed on. As well as this, Interest payments will rise the longer the student is out of work after graduation.

 

I anticipate that when/if I graduate in 2011, I will be competing with people not just who have graduated but many of the jobless, just to find some work.

 

These measures put in place by the Government have essentially all but cut off education to those not wanting the debt, or those who just can't afford it.

 

It's about money, it's not about education. It wouldn't be so bad if they actually increased public spending in Universities, but they haven't.

 

If I wasn't so skint I would have been in London myself yesterday. Now although I don't condone the violence, feelings are running high. Students who voted for Clegg, voted for him solely based on the tuition fee pledge. I don't just know 1-2 I know a good handful, and I'm sure thats the same across the country.

 

Although these fees will not affect me, they would have affected me had I took just a single year out of my education 'deciding what to do'.

 

This country is going to the dogs, and it makes my blood boil seeing MP's who had their education paid for justifying such raises in fees.

 

I'm livid. Fucking livid.

[Antynwa]

So you think the tax payer should fund it?

I have kids who in a few years may decide to waste a few years of their lives at University. Do I expect the tax payer to fund it? No, that's why I've been saving since the day they were born. Thankfully we now have a government that is refusing to milk those that work, to fund those that won't.

 

To put it simply. Students shouldn't have to face a mini mortgage when they graduate.

 

£27k on a degree + any maintenance loans? Disgraceful.

 

I'll be graduating with at least £19k worth of debt. £9k of which will be on tuition fees. I had to take out maintenance loans to give myself some sort of money to spend, I've also got two jobs and it's barely enough.

[Yerma'satexan!]

You say it's doing your fucking head in, well I can tell you, I am fucking enraged about the shit that is being said about my party. Every single step of the way we have tried to do the right thing, every single time. Now you can disagree with what has been done, but you must be thick as two short planks if you think we have betrayed anyone, sold out or otherwise acted in an unprincipled and underhand manner.

 

That's godamn retarted that is.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

To put it simply. Students shouldn't have to face a mini mortgage when they graduate.

 

£27k on a degree + any maintenance loans? Disgraceful.

 

I'll be graduating with at least £19k worth of debt. £9k of which will be on tuition fees. I had to take out maintenance loans to give myself some sort of money to spend, I've also got two jobs and it's barely enough.

 

Don't you also still live at home?

[Antynwa]

Don't you also still live at home?

 

Yes. My parents are paying a mortgage, they help me out as much as they can.

 

My mum got a part time job last year. So I lost my £1k Grant. But, I was still paying back the same money, despite getting £1k less. Not only that, I think I'll lose my Uni bursary as well.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Yes. My parents are paying a mortgage, they help me out as much as they can.

 

My mum got a part time job last year. So I lost my £1k Grant. But, I was still paying back the same money, despite getting £1k less. Not only that, I think I'll lose my Uni bursary as well.

 

The only reason I ask is because you're already finding it hard enough with a couple of jobs and living at home. What about those living away from home and having to buy everything themselves. Not easy, that's for sure.

[Hermes]

Of course the government (through the tax payer) should fund universities and students to receive higher education – it makes good economic sense in the medium term, and it is economic madness not to do it in the long term.

People who’ve been to university on average earn over 25% more than non-university graduates. Over 40 years of tax paying the investment made in them to attend university is paid back countless times over.

 

People who go to university are in general the next generation of thinkers, innovators and business leaders who will create new technologies and develop business to employ others and generate wealth for the country.

 

40 years to re-pay a maximum of £27,000, or about £13-a-week. Why should people earning the minimum wage contribute to somebody who will on average earn in excess of the average wage?

[Antynwa]

The only reason I ask is because you're already finding it hard enough with a couple of jobs and living at home. What about those living away from home and having to buy everything themselves. Not easy, that's for sure.

 

I was intending on moving out for Uni. When the student loan crisis happened, I would have been buggered.

[Master Bates]

Not enough attention has been paid, in my opinion, to the effect which market forces will have on all this.

 

The example was given of Salford University as being an institution from which no-one should graduate with a debt of £27K. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that Salford Uni decided to impose the highest fees it could on its students.

 

The effect should be that prospective students will be perceive the value of the degrees which Salford offers as being incommensurate with the fees it charges and decide to apply elsewhere, or nowhere at all and enter work at an earlier age.

 

If places like Salford charge ridiculous fees for courses of dubious worth, surely they will soon find themselves going out of business because they cannot attract enough fee-paying students.

 

In actual fact, what the country probably needs is fewer universities with fewer students studying at them, although the political class dares not admit this truth out loud at the moment.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

In actual fact, what the country probably needs is fewer universities with fewer students studying at them, although the political class dares not admit this truth out loud at the moment.

 

The truth? I'd suggest it's little more than a right-wing fantasy.

[Section_31]

Did anyone see Cameron's comments to Chinese students?

 

"A good thing about increasing tuition fees is that it'll keep costs from rising for foreign students like yourselves"

 

Outstanding.

 

 

The public school system in Britian was not a sytem for creating the best and the brightest, it was a means of monopolising power for the wealthy and connected. The university system could potentially follow the same path, augmented by foreign students the country sees fit to do business with like China and India.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: "We've been ratted out here boys...watch it."

[Red Phoenix]

The only problem I can see is that they didn't take advantage and destroy the whole of Millbank Tower.

 

Cameron : fuck you, you corrupt cunt.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

[Whelan]

How anyone can argue against government funded Universities is beyond me! Well, actually it isn't because we have in this country a population of selfish, narcissistic, jealous biggoted gobshites. This is a brilliant peice by Barbara Ellen in the Observer on Sunday, and I think highlights the 'me' generation perfectly

 

Students are revolting – and about time too | Barbara Ellen | Comment is free | The Observer

 

Take the Pharmaceutical Industry, Britain is one of the world leaders, so there is a perfectly tangible example of why investment in Higher Education provides financial rewards!

 

But to me, this is nothing to do with financial arguments, it is about Ideology. Look at Europe (particularly relevant to SD, who is constantly telling us to look to Europe for examples of the success of coalition governments!), higher education fees are minimal at best, because they see it as an investment. But we are told Europe is bad for us, Europe is destroying Britain, but while we are being told this lie we are alligning ourselves closer and closer ideologically to one of the most inhumane and selfish societies ever shat on civilization i.e. The U.S of A!

 

It seems perfectly acceptable for us to adopt the working conditions of America, the Education system prevalent in America, the food and culture of America and we hear nothing from the bleating right wing media about how this American culture is destroying Britishness, why? Because Americanism is about the individual, the right for you to be successful on the backs of others, for the underclass to dissapear and remain out of sight, for the rich to remain rich and influence to be kept close to those same cherished few. That is what scum like Cameron and Clegg and Blair want.

 

In short, well done for kicking fuck out of the police, and wrecking the joint! We can do with a little bit more of this kind of fight.

[Strontium]

okay, i dont follow politics as much as i should but guys

 

could you explain to me why the fees need to be increased? how are are doing fine at 3.4k at the moment, if the need to increase this figure nearly 3 fold is so important?

 

 

The Labour Party had a bold idea that half the population should go to university. Unfortunately, they didn't have much of an idea of how to fund it (and, judging by their silence when challenged on the issue this week, they still don't).

 

Tuition fees was the answer they came up with, an error which locked a market for higher education into the system and which would be prohibitively expensive to undo.

 

The Browne Report, which the then Labour government commissioned, asked the question "How high should tuition fees go?" when it should have asked "What do we want higher education to do?" and "How should we fund higher education?"

 

It's depressing to see what a mess successive goverments have made of our education system.

 

 

I can assure you, it's not as depressing as seeing your party, which hasn't been in power for 80+ years, getting the blame for the mess! :lol:

 

Really good post, I found it hard to disagree with any of that.

 

Did anyone see Cameron's comments to Chinese students?

 

"A good thing about increasing tuition fees is that it'll keep costs from rising for foreign students like yourselves"

 

Outstanding.

 

 

Without foreign students and the vast sums they pay, tuition for UK students would be even higher. These Chinese students are subsidising our education system.