Liverpool fans “celebrating” at Heysel?

[razor]

AngryofTuebrook: 100% endorsed from here.

 

Look forward to the formal invitation to write a 3,000-word rebuttal which will be "considered for publication" in their rag.

 

As I pointed out to Ogden, this is what you get if you allow people to write about a culture of which they have absolutely no understanding.

 

I make a serious point when I say that Liverpool fans in the 1980s wouldn't wear ski-masks because it would make them look crap. They spent a lot of money on clothes to look good. Would these Americans understand this cultural mentality? It is how so many arrests were made in Britain and so few in Italy: see The Daily Mirror's front page the following week. Clearly visable faces.

 

The Liverpool fans did not wear masks, it is simply not part of their culture. It is absolutely the culture of Italian “ultras” to cover the face. Most football fans with even a cursory knowledge of football hooliganism know this.

 

Anyway, your reply is excellent.

[TaksimRakiClub]

Good stuff from AngryofTuebrook - very succinct and well written

 

Some good observations from Mac4 as well. Its always been my contention that the trouble was started by the Italians in the mixed section but given that its almost 25 years ago and also because of the immediate anti-Liverpool backlash in the Btitish press you sometimes begin to doubt the evidence of your own eyes. Its nice to hear someone else confirm it.

 

For obvious reasons its always been a sensitive subject and I've shied away from discussing it with people - especially non-Liverpool people - since as they always think you're looking for absolution.

[Sangria]

Now that is bollocks. The Roma thing is vastly overplayed and was not the catalyst for the violence in the heat of the moment at Heysel, which at the time was a regular occurence with English clubs across Europe.

 

I think everyone accepts that a portion of our fans played their part in the build up and the tragic outcome but none of them could have foreseen what was going to happen.

 

It was a part of what happened, no ifs buts or maybes it was. I am not saying it was the biggest factor but it played a part.

[TaksimRakiClub]

It was a part of what happened, no ifs buts or maybes it was. I am not saying it was the biggest factor but it played a part.

 

Agreed.

 

I don't think it was a revenge issue as such though. It was more a case of a significant element of the Juve support came prepared for violence and came looking for it and this time we were ready for it.

 

I wasn't in Rome so can't comment too much but it definately played its part in Brussels.

[JohnnyH]

 

I found the "Contact Us" link on their website and I sent them this.

Contact | United States Sports Academy

I have just read the above article, submitted by A.J. Hayley and Brian S. Johnson. I can honestly say that such a sensationalistic, slanderous, dishonest and under-researched pile of garbage has no place in a daily tabloid, let alone a supposed academic journal.

 

...........etc

 

Ladies and gentlemen, THAT is how you respond to bile like this and many of the other rubbish we have seen written by these and other Cohen-like idiots.

 

Sending abuse, cursing, etc, is pointless and will not get read.

 

This above is a superb repost and shouldn't be ignored if they have any professional conscience at all.

 

Claiming hooligans at Bradford is sickening.

[JohnnyH]

And yes, I don't actually know why I wrote re-post instead of riposte above. Leave me alone bullies..

[razor]

Followers of this thread may like to know a couple more contacts within the Sports Journal organisation:

 

Dr. T.J. Rosandich - tjrosant [at] ussa [dot] edu

Dr Kelly Flanagan - flanagan [at] ussa [dot] edu

 

 

I will also be forwarding the article to Bradford City websites. I am sure they will be as appalled as Liverpool fans are.

 

The article is a disgrace, and although I don't expect an apology, I DO expect it to be removed.

 

ww[w] [dot] thesportjournal.org/article/menaces-management-developmental-view-british-soccer-hooligans-1961-1986

 

And of course our friend Dr Arthur Ogden's contact details are the first post in this thread.

[Faustus]

The fact that he said '39 Italian supporters' immediately debunks it as a shoddy, poorly-researched piece completely lacking in any sensitivity whatsoever. Not everybody who died on that terrible day was an 'Italian supporter'.

 

Very poor from an academic.

[ADP10]

The Ultras who turned their back in 2005 were the 'Nucleo 85' a group of Ultras who came about after the Heysel. For what I heard, as I wasn't at the game but some friends of mine were, they were threatining Juve fans around them forcing them to turn their backs as well.

 

Regarding the Heysel it self, I don't really wanna add anything to what has been said. I am just quoting this article by Marcotti:

 

"The situation degenerated largely because of inadequate security measures and insufficient policing, and to this day, that's pretty much all both camps can agree on. In his book, Le verità sull'Heysel (The Truths of Heysel), Italian journalist Francesco Caremani points out that each side has its own version of events. In England, the story goes, Liverpool fans were provoked by Juventus supporters, who then fled and died when a wall collapsed on top of them. In Italy, many believe that innocent fans were butchered by rampaging hooligans and, in fact, the collapse of the wall actually helped minimize the death toll, as it allowed fans to escape."

 

I read the book he is talking about and I think everybody who really wants to understand what happened that day should. It has been written by an Italian but is not bias and for all I know is the best around on this subject.

[Gonzo]

.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Gonzo
Some things best left alone.

[razor]

Liverpool fans might like to note that Bradford City fans have also taken up the mantle:

 

[http : //]ww w[dot]thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/sport/4706091.Outrage_over_petrol_bomb_claim_on_City_fire/

 

 

[http : / /] bcafc.livewwware.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=50407&sid=38ce075a0d15f5da2136327c6b3a7af1

 

I particularly like the bloke emailing the editor of the Sports Journal (based in Alabama) to tell him that the 1963 Baptist Church Massacre was a conspiracy, which, all things considered, is on a par with their outrageous lies.

 

(If anyone can correct these posts to include URLs I'd be grateful!)

[ratcatcher]

Agreed.

 

I don't think it was a revenge issue as such though. It was more a case of a significant element of the Juve support came prepared for violence and came looking for it and this time we were ready for it.

 

I wasn't in Rome so can't comment too much but it definately played its part in Brussels.

 

Er, you had to be there to experience it. It was worse than a visit to elland road wearing your colours.

[TaksimRakiClub]

Er, you had to be there to experience it. It was worse than a visit to elland road wearing your colours.

 

Er read the thread. I was.

[tokyojoe]

Er, you had to be there to experience it. It was worse than a visit to elland road wearing your colours.

 

I never wore colours to an away ground, but always felt lucky to get away from Leeds in one piece.

 

Anyway, I digress. Rome in 84 was terrifying, I really thought I was going to die that night. I didn't detect any particular aggression towards Italians in Brussels the next year, but that is my personal opinion. Having a brick (a part of that derelict ground) just missing me when I walked through a hole in the wall indicated where the blame really lied.

[El Davo]

Yet another example of poor research and even poorer judgement from people who have no idea what happened and the circumstances before, during and after. Clearly the 'academic' has no wish to deal with the aftermath of such an article, he has no compassion for those who lost loved ones or their relatives and friends.