Benitez kept waiting on new deal

[zigackly]

Going back only to the 02/03 season the mancs did it from third.

 

And they had winning experience in their squad. It's a fucking rare occurrence though, even then. And thanks for pointing out the counter-example to your point by the way. Ferguson didn't win the league in his first four years.

[zigackly]

Edit- did you edit in "very often" there?

 

No. I added another paragraph.

[Code]

And they had winning experience in their squad. It's a fucking rare occurrence though, even then. And thanks for pointing out the counter-example to your point by the way. Ferguson didn't win the league in his first four years.

 

I know, its not really an argument either since I dont want to see the back of Rafa just yet, I just wanted to get things into perspective.

 

I always say that no one can expect to win the league, but I think we should expect to not be out of the race before April by now.

 

Rafa has also done some changes to the sqaud this season and almost made a few more vital ones, I also think we need to wait and see how this works out before we extends his contract.

[zigackly]

If you look at it, when he arrived we were a team who couldn't even guarantee qualifying for the Champions League. Now we're a team you can virtually guarantee getting into the semis. There has been a big improvement, but Rafa is suffering from the situation he found us in, where we had not won the league for years, and had three much stronger rivals. He's also outperformed Arsenal in his time here, improved the squad and given us some pride. I think it's worth being patient, that's all.

[Red Phoenix]

Sorry if it's been mentioned already, but if the current owners are looking to sell, they really should not offer the manager (or anybody else in the management team) contract extensions. It's more convenient to leave that decision to the new owners because the new owners may have different ideas about who they'd like to run the club (both the football side of things and administration).

 

Agreed, and that could also be why Rafa really isn't bothered. He's got a decent amount of time to go yet and he might not see those two massive musty cuntheads being around too long.

[Roy Hobbs]

If you look at it, when he arrived we were a team who couldn't even guarantee qualifying for the Champions League. Now we're a team you can virtually guarantee getting into the semis. There has been a big improvement, but Rafa is suffering from the situation he found us in, where we had not won the league for years, and had three much stronger rivals. He's also outperformed Arsenal in his time here, improved the squad and given us some pride. I think it's worth being patient, that's all.

 

Agree with all that. What gets me is that a major part of Rafa's tenure has included the overhaul of the youth set up and reserves. Everything on that side seems to be progressing very well as well even though we are yet to see a breakthrough to the first team. I think that is inevitable though in the next season or two.

 

To me everything is progressing well, even the harmony in the squad has never been better IMO, everyone is working hard in the same direction. Surely the best option before the media make it an issue as the season progresses (and they will, do not doubt that) is too sign him up, certainly by xmas.

[Carra_is_legend]

Agree with all that. What gets me is that a major part of Rafa's tenure has included the overhaul of the youth set up and reserves. Everything on that side seems to be progressing very well as well even though we are yet to see a breakthrough to the first team. I think that is inevitable though in the next season or two.

 

I won't bet anything on that.

 

To me everything is progressing well, even the harmony in the squad has never been better IMO, everyone is working hard in the same direction. Surely the best option before the media make it an issue as the season progresses (and they will, do not doubt that) is too sign him up, certainly by xmas.

 

I really can't see any point in offering him a new contract by Xmas. To me, he has to prove he can "challenge" for the title as well as take us further in the Champions league. If he does that, it will be about time we open talks with him. If he fails to "challenge" and if we go out of the race by Jan/Feb, I won't offer him a new contract.

[redrosetints]

And they had winning experience in their squad. It's a fucking rare occurrence though, even then. And thanks for pointing out the counter-example to your point by the way. Ferguson didn't win the league in his first four years.

 

Thats right, he didnt win anything for 5 and it took 7 for the league.

[redrosetints]

Totally respect the opinions of those who say wait, but to me, Rafa is holding the club together and taking us forward. Were much more potent in the league now than at any time since we last won it, were kings of europe and feared across the continent again and that down to Rafa.

 

Rafa was accused of tinkering too much and playing too many systems, since last Christmas he's picked a settled system and played a more settled team, Rafa even admitting as much in an interview the other day. He's also been criticised for building the squad slowly, quantity over quality and yet he's managed to negotiate the difficult balancing act of maintinaing form whilst improving the squad. i.e we've made the CL in each of his seasons, being thrid twice in the leauge, whilst slowly overhauling each and every position to where we are now, with a better squad all over (ok LB may still be a problem). He's not done a finish 8th and rebuild, or two seaons out of the top 4 as Fergie did, he's maintained us ahead of the chasing pack, if behind the richer, more succesful squads. Of course were yet to see if these changes are to our detriment, not rotating now may mean we run out of steam in April, but it seems to me he's answering more questions about his management each season and with big ticks rather than crosses. P[eople are right to be wary, of course, but not for the sake of it. THis is the first time he's had his squad, playing his way, he has experience of the Prem now and is showing signs of understanding some of the little things it needs. We need continuity, we have none of the pitch, lets keep it on it.

[Roy Hobbs]

I really can't see any point in offering him a new contract by Xmas. To me, he has to prove he can "challenge" for the title as well as take us further in the Champions league. If he does that, it will be about time we open talks with him. If he fails to "challenge" and if we go out of the race by Jan/Feb, I won't offer him a new contract.

 

Fair enough. It's all opinions, I think we need to tie him up and therefore stop the media storm this will generate in the 2nd half of the year. We are at relative peace now by recent standards but the media will use this to distract us if it isnt resolved, especially if we are in the mix at xmas.

 

However I can understand where you are coming from also, just don't agree with it.

[Barrington Womble]

The academy is a problem I agree but the League performance is bang in line with what we spend.

All that pales into insignificance compared to the CL which is the #1 trophy to "90% of those involved in football" (Mascherano, Guardian interview) & certainly the one where marginal performance most translates into revenue for the club. As you know, prior to him arriving opposing fans sang "CL, You're having a laugh" at us; well winning it & having the #1 record in Europe over his tenure certainly is having a laugh although I'm not sure that's quite what they meant.

 

He is courted by RM,Juve & Munich as his body of work this decade at Tenerife,Valencia (their 3 best years in their history, ever) & us is probably the best in the world.

 

Locking up your best assets makes is good for us & also makes us more attarctive to future owners & right now he is our best asset.

& at £2.5m/year we are very lucky that there has been greater fraud in sub-prime because in comparison with most of football we could be investigated & charged with grand larceny.

 

Without wanting to get into a big massive debate on this, he was brought in due to his ability to win the league in spain while not spending as much as madrid and barca. He has not managed this with us for a variety of reasons, which as I said I don't want to get in a debate about as I won't have the time later to reply. You've effectively said what Rafa achieves is par for the course - well maybe we should expect more than par for the course.

 

You're right, his record in Europe is magnificent (I think I sound like Martin O'Neil there), but our clubs focus should (and always has been) on the league. Europe should be a bonus - if you're the best side in England, you will at least be competitive in Europe as a consequence.

 

All I'm saying is he is less than perfect and clearly wants to go nowhere (or Mrs Rafa wants to go nowhere), so the yanks won't rush into anything.

[RobbieOR]

I dont think the yanks are rushing into anything because he doesnt want to go anyware its because they could be going in the next few months.With wachovia and rbs on the brink of collapse i think they will go.

[Roy Hobbs]

Without wanting to get into a big massive debate on this, he was brought in due to his ability to win the league in spain while not spending as much as madrid and barca. He has not managed this with us for a variety of reasons, which as I said I don't want to get in a debate about as I won't have the time later to reply. You've effectively said what Rafa achieves is par for the course - well maybe we should expect more than par for the course.

 

You're right, his record in Europe is magnificent (I think I sound like Martin O'Neil there), but our clubs focus should (and always has been) on the league. Europe should be a bonus - if you're the best side in England, you will at least be competitive in Europe as a consequence.

 

All I'm saying is he is less than perfect and clearly wants to go nowhere (or Mrs Rafa wants to go nowhere), so the yanks won't rush into anything.

 

TBH when you analyse it properly, the money generated by our Rafa inspired CL runs is not just a bonus, it's our transfer budget.:whistle:

[Barrington Womble]

TBH when you analyse it properly, the money generated by our Rafa inspired CL runs is not just a bonus, it's our transfer budget.:whistle:

 

The point I'm making is if we are the best team in England, I think we would be at least competitive in Europe. We may not be as good as we have been under Rafa, but we'd still probably get to the last 8 on a regular basis with a manager less tactically astute over 2 legs.

 

I would imagine getting to the last 8 every year from being in the top 2 would improve what he has been brought in financially over the last 4 years as the champions and 2nd place teams get a much greater share of the TV money.

 

I'm not saying Rafa's european record doesn't matter, but I am saying he was hired to improve what we achieve in the league, make us into challengers, not a team who aims for 4th and his ability to do that on a smaller budget than some other teams. As of yet he's not broken into the bracket of challengers and I think that is reason enough to sit tight for a few months. Perhaps if it looked like Rafa really wanted to get away it may be different, but it seems to me his family is very settled in the area and he's not about to walk because there's no offer on the table. I'm certain if we sit and see if a title challenge comes along and we're still in with a shout at March and then offered Rafa a new deal, he'd sign it.

[Roy Hobbs]

The point I'm making is if we are the best team in England, I think we would be at least competitive in Europe. We may not be as good as we have been under Rafa, but we'd still probably get to the last 8 on a regular basis with a manager less tactically astute over 2 legs.

 

I would imagine getting to the last 8 every year from being in the top 2 would improve what he has been brought in financially over the last 4 years as the champions and 2nd place teams get a much greater share of the TV money.

 

I'm not saying Rafa's european record doesn't matter, but I am saying he was hired to improve what we achieve in the league, make us into challengers, not a team who aims for 4th and his ability to do that on a smaller budget than some other teams. As of yet he's not broken into the bracket of challengers and I think that is reason enough to sit tight for a few months. Perhaps if it looked like Rafa really wanted to get away it may be different, but it seems to me his family is very settled in the area and he's not about to walk because there's no offer on the table. I'm certain if we sit and see if a title challenge comes along and we're still in with a shout at March and then offered Rafa a new deal, he'd sign it.

 

TBH if Rafa leave's there is no gaurantee who we would replace him with and therefore no gaurantee we would qualify for the CL, which in turn would mean little or no transfer budget.

 

That basically = regression.:whoops:

 

Unless you can gaurantee that G&H will replace Rafa with someone superior?:whistle:

[Unrighteous]

To let Benitez leave would be a massive error.

 

That's all that really needs to be said and I can't fathom anyone thinking differently(even though I know some do).

[redrosetints]

Without wanting to get into a big massive debate on this, he was brought in due to his ability to win the league in spain while not spending as much as madrid and barca. He has not managed this with us for a variety of reasons, which as I said I don't want to get in a debate about as I won't have the time later to reply. You've effectively said what Rafa achieves is par for the course - well maybe we should expect more than par for the course.

 

You're right, his record in Europe is magnificent (I think I sound like Martin O'Neil there), but our clubs focus should (and always has been) on the league. Europe should be a bonus - if you're the best side in England, you will at least be competitive in Europe as a consequence.

 

All I'm saying is he is less than perfect and clearly wants to go nowhere (or Mrs Rafa wants to go nowhere), so the yanks won't rush into anything.

 

And yet without Europe Rafa would have had very little money to spend in the past 4 years, it is the CL that's given him Torres, Mascherano, Keane etc...

[Barrington Womble]

TBH if Rafa leave's there is no gaurantee who we would replace him with and therefore no gaurantee we would qualify for the CL, which in turn would mean little or no transfer budget.

 

That basically = regression.:whoops:

 

Unless you can gaurantee that G&H will replace Rafa with someone superior?:whistle:

 

Nobody can guarantee anything in football - in the same way Rafa can't guarantee we'd finish in the top 4 this year. G&H may not even be the owners come next March/April time. Your point of view seems to be Rafa is about to walk and if he does the world will end. My view is he's going nowhere as he wants to stay - if that's the case what business justification is there to extend his contract today? I don't see a reason to do it. I'm not saying sack him, I'm not saying keep him - I'm saying he has 18 months left on his contract, he and his family are happy and settled in the area, so there's no rush to do anything.

[Barrington Womble]

And yet without Europe Rafa would have had very little money to spend in the past 4 years, it is the CL that's given him Torres, Mascherano, Keane etc...

 

Not really sure of your point to be honest. If you read my post I was saying I believed if we were a better league side (so consistently finishing in the top 2), the european stuff would happen anyway. it may not take us to 3 semis and 2 finals in 4 years, but from a financial aspect an average of last 8 would give us just as much money qualifying from 1st/2nd position.

[dennis tooth]

But would Martin Oneil or any other viable alternative have won the cl with us? I doubt it. Until then we should just be grateful, he'll win the league this year, you have my word on that.

[zigackly]

No offence to anyone here, but I still firmly believe that to let a good managers contract run down like this is an absolute disgrace and we would get what we deserve if he did walk out. You wouldn't do it with a player, and the manager is more important than any player. Sometimes you don't know what you've got till it's gone and I hope we're never in the position where I could say I told you so.

[aws]

No offence to anyone here, but I still firmly believe that to let a good managers contract run down like this is an absolute disgrace and we would get what we deserve if he did walk out. You wouldn't do it with a player, and the manager is more important than any player. Sometimes you don't know what you've got till it's gone and I hope we're never in the position where I could say I told you so.

 

Agree with that. If he continues to get frustrated by the yanks and by parry, gets pissed off that the likes of moyes are paid more than him and Man City come in with a double your money offer, perhaps even montse couldn't keep him here. Mark hughes would be available though.

[Red-Ed]

Not sure if this has been posted anywhere else, so if it has my apologies:

 

"The Spanish sports daily, Marca, believes that Fernando Torres has turned down a move to Manchester City and told the new owners of the club that he will not be tempted leave Liverpool for any amount of money.

 

 

According to Marca: "the billionaire investor at Eastlands, Sulaiman Al Fahim, has not yet approached Liverpool football club regarding a move for the Spanish international."

 

Marca writes: “Ten days ago the Arab Sheikh made contact with Torres’ representatives, the management company Bahia, and told them that he would, at the very least, double Fernando’s current salary. However, Bahia, who look after all of the player’s commercial affairs, returned with an unequivocal response from the player himself: Torres is not interested in Manchester City.”

 

 

Marca believes that the rebuttal from Fernando Torres was swift enough and firm enough to dissuade Manchester City from making any further approaches and that the matter is now finished as far as both parties are concerned.

 

 

However, it’s not all good news for Liverpool fans. The author of the article in question, Jose Vicente Hernaez, goes on to say that Torres, "whose contract runs out in 2010," is hesitant over committing himself to a longer deal at Anfield: because of doubts over the future of the manager at the club. Marca writes: “While there remains the possibility that Rafa Benitez could leave the club at the end of the season, Torres will not rule out leaving Liverpool next June.”"

 

I'm pretty sure the bit in bold is wrong as I thought he was on a 6 year contract, but does show the danger of not sorting this out sooner rather than later as it's going to unsettle players.

[Catch22]

Without wanting to get into a big massive debate on this, he was brought in due to his ability to win the league in spain while not spending as much as madrid and barca. He has not managed this with us for a variety of reasons, which as I said I don't want to get in a debate about as I won't have the time later to reply. You've effectively said what Rafa achieves is par for the course - well maybe we should expect more than par for the course.

 

You're right, his record in Europe is magnificent (I think I sound like Martin O'Neil there), but our clubs focus should (and always has been) on the league. Europe should be a bonus - if you're the best side in England, you will at least be competitive in Europe as a consequence.

 

All I'm saying is he is less than perfect and clearly wants to go nowhere (or Mrs Rafa wants to go nowhere), so the yanks won't rush into anything.

 

It is a fair point that I do regard his PL performance as being not much better than par for the course, which doesnt in itself justify excessive praise.

 

I do regard Europe as much more important than the PL but that has been debated elsewhere & is an opinion: I fully accept others value things differently.

 

I think you are forgetting just how far behind we had fallen before Rafa: In the '90's after Kenny left, we won just 1 League Cup & 1 FA cup, both under discredited managers & whilst falling further & further behind (Wenger's new diet regimes vs the Spice Boys etc)

GH then won us the treble but got ill & took giant steps backward.

 

In the last few years of GH's reign there was no such thing as the 'big 4' & we were certainly not part of it.

When Rafa took over, we had been in the CL twice. The Mancs had been in it 10 times & Arse 6... Leeds had been to a SF but had then crashed. Even Newc had been twice.

The Chavs had been once but just had the largest cash injection football had ever known.

Our top striker had just left us for a relative pittance partly to play guaranteed CL football.

 

If you are not regularly in the CL you can't attract or retain players both becuase they want to play in it & because you need its revenues to pay the top wages.

Even if you value winning the League as your main goal you have to consistently be in the CL as a base camp to achieve that.

 

When Rafa took over, 2 sides dominated on the pitch & a 3rd was spending such money it was clearly joining the elite.

There was a clear 'big 3' & we were not part of it.

 

The most likely scenario would have been those 3 pulling ahead & us battling with the likes of Newc (the same # of CL appearances as us in the last few years & a much larger ground) for a 4th place which went to different teams in different years.

Gerr would have left & Torr/Masch would never have joined.

 

Rafa's CL perfromances (the best in Europe over his 4-year period according to Uefa with all the consistency that implies)have put us clearly into a big 4 & his raised revenue has enabled us to attract some great players.

 

If you put yourself back to 2004 with Owen leaving for £7m, Arse unbeaten in the League & Roman throwing money around like water, what Rafa has achieved would be outside even the most optimistic expectations.

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

I won't bet anything on that.

 

 

 

I really can't see any point in offering him a new contract by Xmas. To me, he has to prove he can "challenge" for the title as well as take us further in the Champions league. If he does that, it will be about time we open talks with him. If he fails to "challenge" and if we go out of the race by Jan/Feb, I won't offer him a new contract.

 

Howdy George