Russia v Ukraine

[Gnasher]

On 08/06/2022 at 22:13, Numero Veinticinco said:

It's caused by Russia. See ya. 

Eww the quimometer hits ten.

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Eww the quimometer hits ten.

Any chance you could say something with actual merit? At lease RP actually gives it a go.

[Gnasher]

7 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Any chance you could say something with actual merit? At lease RP actually gives it a go.

See Ya.

[Red Phoenix]

47 minutes ago, SasaS said:

This will never stop, there is no "deal to be struck", it will just be more and more and more. Russia won in Syria, they then moved Wagner to Libya, now they are in Mali. Give them what they want in Ukraine now, tomorrow they will ask for more, there and in Moldova, in Finland. They may decide Georgia is in the way after all. If opposition in Belarus gets rid of Lukashenko, they will invade Belarus, just like their paratroopers moved in to prop up Kazakhstan government during recent riots.  

 

They are building or rebuilding an empire and the West thinks it can get a piece of paper to wave about, bearing Putin's signature.

 

Give Ukraine weapons. Now. Before it's too late.

 

We can keep up the war frenzy and carry on playing Russian roulette with the chances of a wider and way more serious war that it could get impossible to back out of, drawing other countries in and posing a serious risk to the rest of the planet, or we could help Ukraine work out some type of peace deal. I think I'd prefer the latter option.

 

I know there's the idea that the West is some type of beacon of democracy and Putin is Hitler that we have to defend against, but people all over the planet (and definitely Syria and Libya included with their destroyed countries), including many in the West, would disagree with the beacon of democracy bit and would also say that maybe the Putin Hitler thing is designed to help drum up more frenzy and make arms and cash easier to shovel in there.

 

Tens of thousands have died, there's a chance this could have all been avoided. This is mainly a war between the US and Russia with Ukrainians being sacrificed in the middle of it and Europe shoveling arms and cash in there. It's a complete mess and us ignoring all of our own history with destroying countries leaves us looking like hypocrites I think.

 

A lot of the "you'd have been neutral with Hitler/Nazis", "Putin sympathiser", "Kremlin talking points" is designed to shut out dissent too. The problem with that is that it's always going to fail when some of it has been said like a mantra since 2016 and there's the risk of a nuclear war if things go too badly. There should be peace talks for the sake of the planet, not just Ukraine, and this will definitely now I think, go down as one of the biggest foreign policy disasters of our lifetimes.

 

The idea of just sending more weapons and cash over there while ignoring any type of negotiated way out of this is becoming more extreme and isolated as the days pass, maybe that's because it's becoming increasingly dangerous.

 

Russia have already failed in the original aim of basically going in there and doing some type of regime change operation. Completely failed. They've been isolated from western economies, a lot of their military are now dead and they've also lost loads of their military strength. They're now weakened and it'll take them a long time to repair the damage. Going around invading country after country wouldn't be in their interests I don't think.

[Numero Veinticinco]

18 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

See Ya.

See ya, please never come back you ignorant, obtuse cunt. Your beard is shit. 

[Gnasher]

3 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

See ya, please never come back you ignorant, obtuse cunt. Your beard is shit. 

See Ya.

[Gnasher]

On 08/06/2022 at 22:13, Numero Veinticinco said:

It's caused by Russia. See ya. 

Thanks for the enlightenment, never have guessed. See Ya.

[Gnasher]

Its hard graft being a peacenick in this era. It's also  fucking odd to find yourself on the side of  people like the Pope and Henry Kissinger.

 

"‘Unprecedented’: US Congress passes massive Ukraine aid package | Russia-Ukraine war News | Al Jazeera" https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/5/19/unprecedented-us-congress-passes-massive-ukraine-aid-package

[Captain Howdy]

On 08/06/2022 at 21:46, Red Phoenix said:

 

Yeah it's a sovereign state, I'm sure that in the US Biden and Nuland agree on that. And I'm sure feeding the world and avoiding a food crisis has been at the front of their minds all along. We've had Russia Russia Russia for most of the last decade but the invasion confirms everything, our western leaders have been innocent all along and The Guardian have covered it all with truth as the main focus.

You seriously need to extract your tongue from Putins ring piece.

[Numero Veinticinco]

15 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Thanks for the enlightenment, never have guessed. See Ya.

If only you could have read the posts leading up to it. You probably still wouldn’t understand it because it’s longer than a headline. 

[Red Phoenix]

2 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

You seriously need to extract your tongue from Putins ring piece.

 

Not a fan of Putin and would prefer it if he stepped down, so that doesn't work at all.

 

A lot of the problems here are due to Putin invading, and also this rage at Putin that's been drummed up for most of the last decade as US Dems and others have used him and Russia to deflect from their own failures. Maybe they'll just do the same if he's replaced, but it'd at least be a new start.

[Captain Howdy]

1 minute ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Not a fan of Putin and would prefer it if he stepped down, so that doesn't work at all.

 

Is that so. You might want to quit with the deflection and whataboutery then, it might just lead people to conclude that you are indeed a Putin fluffer.

[SasaS]

42 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

We can keep up the war frenzy and carry on playing Russian roulette with the chances of a wider and way more serious war that it could get impossible to back out of, drawing other countries in and posing a serious risk to the rest of the planet, or we could help Ukraine work out some type of peace deal. I think I'd prefer the latter option.

 

I know there's the idea that the West is some type of beacon of democracy and Putin is Hitler that we have to defend against, but people all over the planet (and definitely Syria and Libya included with their destroyed countries), including many in the West, would disagree with the beacon of democracy bit and would also say that maybe the Putin Hitler thing is designed to help drum up more frenzy and make arms and cash easier to shovel in there.

 

Tens of thousands have died, there's a chance this could have all been avoided. This is mainly a war between the US and Russia with Ukrainians being sacrificed in the middle of it and Europe shoveling arms and cash in there. It's a complete mess and us ignoring all of our own history with destroying countries leaves us looking like hypocrites I think.

 

A lot of the "you'd have been neutral with Hitler/Nazis", "Putin sympathiser", "Kremlin talking points" is designed to shut out dissent too. The problem with that is that it's always going to fail when some of it has been said like a mantra since 2016 and there's the risk of a nuclear war if things go too badly. There should be peace talks for the sake of the planet, not just Ukraine, and this will definitely now I think, go down as one of the biggest foreign policy disasters of our lifetimes.

 

The idea of just sending more weapons and cash over there while ignoring any type of negotiated way out of this is becoming more extreme and isolated as the days pass, maybe that's because it's becoming increasingly dangerous.

 

Russia have already failed in the original aim of basically going in there and doing some type of regime change operation. Completely failed. They've been isolated from western economies, a lot of their military are now dead and they've also lost loads of their military strength. They're now weakened and it'll take them a long time to repair the damage. Going around invading country after country wouldn't be in their interests I don't think.

It is always the same problem, what type of peace deal? As if something viable is on the table, as if Russia didn't invade to destroy them, as if it didn't already get a deal with Crimea, and still invaded 8 years later, as it would invade again if Ukraine doesn't build a strong army which can work as a deterrent.

 

The deal people have in mind is to give Russia what it wants / what it has occupied, force Ukraine accept the loss of 20 percent of their country now for the sake of peace and pretend Russians would never come back for more. A deal these people would never accept themselves if it was their own country.

 

It's an existential fight with a neighbour intent on destroying you, a neighbour denying you the right to exist or that you exist at all as a sovereign country, a neighbour who thinks you are an inferior race occupying the living space he wants for himself. It's not a war over some disputed islands somewhere off the cost of the two countries. Look at Lavrov, how he talks dismissively of Ukraine, forget crazies in panel discussions or Putin. And Lavrov is the closest they've got in terms of what West sees as acceptable  diplomacy.  

[Rico1304]

8 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Not a fan of Putin and would prefer it if he stepped down, so that doesn't work at all.

 

A lot of the problems here are due to Putin invading, and also this rage at Putin that's been drummed up for most of the last decade as US Dems and others have used him and Russia to deflect from their own failures. Maybe they'll just do the same if he's replaced, but it'd at least be a new start.

‘A lot of the problems are caused by Putin invading’ - that’s as far as you’re willing to go?  
 

Fucking mental. 

[Leyton388]

Seriously hope Putin dies of the most agonising cancer known to man. 

[Red Phoenix]

9 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Is that so. You might want to quit with the deflection and whataboutery then, it might just lead people to conclude that you are indeed a Putin fluffer.

 

I'm not deflecting I don't think, and whataboutery often comes up when the West is brought up.

 

Putin is an authoritarian in Russia, he's just invaded a country and I'd agree he's a war criminal too, he also thinks he's some type of emperor that doesn't ever have to worry about elections and should stay in power until he decides when to go, not the Russian people in any type of democratic way.

 

If that makes me a Putin fluffer I can't imagine what you think of Macron, Erdogan and Scholz.

 

10 minutes ago, SasaS said:

It is always the same problem, what type of peace deal? As if something viable is on the table, as if Russia didn't invade to destroy them, as if it didn't already get a deal with Crimea, and still invaded 8 years later, as it would invade again if Ukraine doesn't build a strong army which can work as a deterrent.

 

The deal people have in mind is to give Russia what it wants / what it has occupied, force Ukraine accept the loss of 20 percent of their country now for the sake of peace and pretend Russians would never come back for more. A deal these people would never accept themselves if it was their own country.

 

It's an existential fight with a neighbour intent on destroying you, a neighbour denying you the right to exist or that you exist at all as a sovereign country, a neighbour who thinks you are an inferior race occupying the living space he wants for himself. It's not a war over some disputed islands somewhere off the cost of the two countries. Look at Lavrov, how he talks dismissively of Ukraine, forget crazies in panel discussions or Putin. And Lavrov is the closest they've got in terms of what West sees as acceptable  diplomacy.  

 

8 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

‘A lot of the problems are caused by Putin invading’ - that’s as far as you’re willing to go?  
 

Fucking mental. 

 

Again I think this only works if you ignore the part we've played (Western countries) in Ukraine. And seeing as that always ends in arguments maybe I should quit here if I can. I don't know how peace is worked out now either really, that's one of the reasons I think it's so dangerous, the end to it isn't even clear.

 

It's not going to be done by Ukraine kicking Russia out of there completely though I don't think. Even Zelensky said recently that trying to take back Crimea could results in hundreds of thousands of casualties. That's just Crimea, so how does he figure taking all of their territory back is going to work out?

[Red Phoenix]

Ukraine are literally running out of ammo, some type of reality has to kick in soon surely.

 

 

[SasaS]

5 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I'm not deflecting I don't think, and whataboutery often comes up when the West is brought up.

 

Putin is an authoritarian in Russia, he's just invaded a country and I'd agree he's a war criminal too, he also thinks he's some type of emperor that doesn't ever have to worry about elections and should stay in power until he decides when to go, not the Russian people in any type of democratic way.

 

If that makes me a Putin fluffer I can't imagine what you think of Macron, Erdogan and Scholz.

 

 

 

Again I think this only works if you ignore the part we've played (Western countries) in Ukraine. And seeing as that always ends in arguments maybe I should quit here if I can. I don't know how peace is worked out now either really, that's one of the reasons I think it's so dangerous, the end to it isn't even clear.

 

It's not going to be done by Ukraine kicking Russia out of there completely though I don't think. Even Zelensky said recently that trying to take back Crimea could results in hundreds of thousands of casualties. That's just Crimea, so how does he figure taking all of their territory back is going to work out?

We can start talking about what will be the road to peace once UKR army has at least firepower parity with the invaders and starts seriously pushing them back across several frontlines. Not when the invader is still on the offensive and people are increasingly willing to pressure its victim into accepting defeat, as a road to peace. That is the only thing on the negotiation table now.

 

So either send them enough weapons or tell them to find another way to defend themselves and leave them to the Russians. This send them some, but not quite enough to defeat Russia approach is the worst thing you can do.

[Red Phoenix]

17 minutes ago, SasaS said:

We can start talking about what will be the road to peace once UKR army has at least firepower parity with the invaders and starts seriously pushing them back across several frontlines. Not when the invader is still on the offensive and people are increasingly willing to pressure its victim into accepting defeat, as a road to peace. That is the only thing on the negotiation table now.

 

So either send them enough weapons or tell them to find another way to defend themselves and leave them to the Russians. This send them some, but not quite enough to defeat Russia approach is the worst thing you can do.

 

After watching this more closely lately (in Donbas only) I can see that Ukraine can defend really well in some places and yeah they could grind Russia down over the course of the next few months if they had the equipment. I'm not sure how they're going to push them back though with the way things are. I've always had the sense that the US especially are mainly aiming at doing what Austin said : weakening Russia, and it's obviously Ukrainians that are paying the heaviest price for it.

[SasaS]

11 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

After watching this more closely lately (in Donbas only) I can see that Ukraine can defend really well in some places and yeah they could grind Russia down over the course of the next few months if they had the equipment. I'm not sure how they're going to push them back though with the way things are. I've always had the sense that the US especially are mainly aiming at doing what Austin said : weakening Russia, and it's obviously Ukrainians that are paying the heaviest price for it.

Ukrainians are supposed to have advantage in manpower and they would definitely have an advantage in fighting morale over Russian troops, because they know what they are fighting for. Separatists may match them in morale, but not in numbers, they are also probably divided into those with full motivation and the majority that would probably rather not fight if they can avoid it.

Once their "legacy" artillery which has apparently been struggling for ammunition for some time now has been sufficiently replaced by Western compatible systems they can much more efficiently  suppress enemy artillery, which is enemy's main advantage at the moment, and strike Russian defense lines, pushing them back, the same ways Russians are pushing forward now. And I don't see Russians being able to endure the level of pounding Ukrainians are willing to take in their trenches.  I don't think Russians would be desperately defending Upper Shitholyinka or similar villages in the middle of nowhere in Ukraine, like Ukrainians do. And once they start retreating and the whole thing unraveling, they would be much more reasonable round the negotiating table. Then you can say, taking back Crimea would mean tens of thousand of Ukrainian dead, but equally, Ukrainian rockets would render Russian navel bases difficult to operate, so lets make some kind of Good Friday deal about it all with split jurisfiction or something where both sides can pretend they have won.  

[Rico1304]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I'm not deflecting I don't think, and whataboutery often comes up when the West is brought up.

 

Putin is an authoritarian in Russia, he's just invaded a country and I'd agree he's a war criminal too, he also thinks he's some type of emperor that doesn't ever have to worry about elections and should stay in power until he decides when to go, not the Russian people in any type of democratic way.

 

If that makes me a Putin fluffer I can't imagine what you think of Macron, Erdogan and Scholz.

 

 

 

Again I think this only works if you ignore the part we've played (Western countries) in Ukraine. And seeing as that always ends in arguments maybe I should quit here if I can. I don't know how peace is worked out now either really, that's one of the reasons I think it's so dangerous, the end to it isn't even clear.

 

It's not going to be done by Ukraine kicking Russia out of there completely though I don't think. Even Zelensky said recently that trying to take back Crimea could results in hundreds of thousands of casualties. That's just Crimea, so how does he figure taking all of their territory back is going to work out?

Should just roll over them. And the swedes. Maybe we could all sponsor an invader?

[Red Phoenix]

I'm sure Ukraine could wear Russia down but only if it turns into basically a Russia vs NATO (equipment) proxy war and we have no idea of how any Ukrainian lives that could cost or how badly things would escalate either.

 

I don't even know what else I can say that doesn't result in arguments. Maybe it'll get easier to post other stuff over time but I'll try more to stick to just looking at what's happening in Donbas instead. This is from me linking one article from a former US intel analyst without comment too.

 

These articles (confused at and/or critical of what's going on) were almost non-existent for a while though but now they're appearing often. It could point to govs and media gradually accepting that something should change soon with how this is going.

[SasaS]

38 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

I'm sure Ukraine could wear Russia down but only if it turns into basically a Russia vs NATO (equipment) proxy war and we have no idea of how any Ukrainian lives that could cost or how badly things would escalate either.

 

I don't even know what else I can say that doesn't result in arguments. Maybe it'll get easier to post other stuff over time but I'll try more to stick to just looking at what's happening in Donbas instead. This is from me linking one article from a former US intel analyst without comment too.

 

These articles (confused at and/or critical of what's going on) were almost non-existent for a while though but now they're appearing often. It could point to govs and media gradually accepting that something should change soon with how this is going.

How badly could they escalate, if the casualty figures people talk about are true? And what do you think Russia could do they are not doing already, to win the war they apparently must not lose? What else would bring Russia to accept/offer  peace terms which are not land grab of one third of Ukraine?

 

It is a NATO equipment versus Russia proxy war already, since the land lease and since Ukraine decided to switch to NATO standard artillery. The difference is, would they receive 200 pieces of it they have now and 100 more over the next couple of months, and then 200 battery by battery by the end of the year with months of attritional war to lopk forward to, or 500 plus a 100 rocket launchers now and get it over with by the end of September.

[Red Phoenix]

11 minutes ago, SasaS said:

How badly could they escalate, if the casualty figures people talk about are true? And what do you think Russia could do they are not doing already, to win the war they apparently must not lose? What else would bring Russia to accept/offer  peace terms which are not land grab of one third of Ukraine?

 

It is a NATO equipment versus Russia proxy war already, since the land lease and since Ukraine decided to switch to NATO standard artillery. The difference is, would they receive 200 pieces of it they have now and 100 more over the next couple of months, and then 200 battery by battery by the end of the year with months of attritional war to lopk forward to, or 500 plus a 100 rocket launchers now and get it over with by the end of September.

 

I think we all know how badly things could escalate at the worst between Russia and the West, that's why it's so dangerous. I don't know how much things would turn with the right equipment too. They could really wear Russia down but Russia also has a population over three times the size and Ukraine will already be well aware of that.

 

Zelensky is off to a NATO meeting soon as well so maybe he'll get some of the weapons he wants there. I really don't know the details of what weapons he needs though and how much it'd actually affect anything. I only have some general knowledge of what's going on in Donbas when it comes to where the fighting is and that's about as far as it goes.

[TheHowieLama]

3 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

also this rage at Putin that's been drummed up for most of the last decade as US Dems and others have used him and Russia to deflect from their own failures. 

Well, he did get Trump elected and has enjoyed 4 years of best pal status as a result over the last decade so....