Russia v Ukraine

[Anubis]

Love the shouts on Twitter to send the SAS to rescue the condemned British nationals.

 

Yes, let's insert British soldiers into a war between two other countries, which would be an act of war on our part.

[SasaS]

3 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Joe Biden's Submissive -- and Highly Revealing -- Embrace of Saudi Despots

Didn't click on the link, but will if you tell me there is praise for Biden's submissive and highly revealing embrace of Venezuela "despots".

[Red Phoenix]

41 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Didn't click on the link, but will if you tell me there is praise for Biden's submissive and highly revealing embrace of Venezuela "despots".

 

I don't think you can compare Biden and Saudi Arabia to Biden and Venezuela very well. Not when it comes to Ukraine anyway.

 

I went back and there's this if it makes you feel better :

 

Quote

Again, nobody outside of the U.S. and British media takes seriously the claim that the U.S. — loyal patron to the Saudis, Emiratis and Egyptians and countless CIA coups in their region — is so offended by authoritarianism in the three excluded Latin American countries that they cannot abide participating in a conference with them. Such a claim is particularly unsustainable in light of reports that Biden officials were all but begging Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro to sell oil on the market to compensate for sanctions on Russia in exchange for the lifting of U.S. sanctions on Venezuela (indeed, why is it more moral to buy oil from the Saudis than the Venezuelans)?

The reason for the U.S.'s shunning of those countries has nothing to do with America's antipathy to autocracy and everything to do with the political importance of rapidly growing immigrant communities in Florida and other key swing states who fled those Latin American countries due to contempt for those governments. What possible cogent moral argument holds that it is permissible to maintain relations with the Saudis and Egyptians due to geo-strategic benefits around oil and international competition but not countries in the U.S.'s own hemisphere such as Venezuela, Cuba and Nicaragua? If American interests compel the U.S. to “overlook” or even sanction grave human rights abuses in their close Gulf-State-dictatorship-partners, why do the benefits for American citizens from relations with these Latin American countries not compel the same?

The undeniable reality is that Kissingerian realism — the question of what is in the self-interest of the United States, or at least what is in the interests of a small sliver of American elites — is and long has been the core, animating, overarching ideology of U.S. foreign policy, as is true of the foreign policy of all great powers. The bit about crusading for human rights and democracy and battling tyranny and despotism is just the propagandistic packaging for domestic media consumption.

 

[SasaS]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I don't think you can compare Biden and Saudi Arabia to Biden and Venezuela very well. Not when it comes to Ukraine anyway.

 

I went back and there's this if it makes you feel better :

 

Greenwald in "American foreign policy is realpolitik intended to protect American and current administration's political interests" shocker.

Imagine if Saudis were for some reason no longer needed and went even more rogue, Russia leaves Syria completely and Assad gradually becomes much more cooperative with the US. Greenwald and company would rush to Riyadh's defence and suddenly realize Assad is a murderous tyrant.

Or if Maduro starts bringing the oil price down to the level Russia may struggle to fund its invasion of Ukraine, Greenwald may suddenly decide shelves in Caracas shops  may not be that well stocked as he used to claim when he went there. Although this time they may well be.

Meanwhile in the real world, Ukraine goes to Nato summit in true Russian style, with some crazy weapons demands. They are so going to be thrown under the Russian bus eventually.

 

[Red Phoenix]

8 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Greenwald in "American foreign policy is realpolitik intended to protect American and current administration's political interests" shocker.

Imagine if Saudis were for some reason no longer needed and went even more rogue, Russia leaves Syria completely and Assad gradually becomes much more cooperative with the US. Greenwald and company would rush to Riyadh's defence and suddenly realize Assad is a murderous tyrant.

Or if Maduro starts bringing the oil price down to the level Russia may struggle to fund its invasion of Ukraine, Greenwald may suddenly decide shelves in Caracas shops  may not be that well stocked as he used to claim when he went there. Although this time they may well be.

Meanwhile in the real world, Ukraine goes to Nato summit in true Russian style, with some crazy weapons demands. They are so going to be thrown under the Russian bus eventually.

 

I think he's just pointing out some of the hypocrisy of what's going on and had some good points. You could maybe add what Turkey are doing soon if they're going to cause more chaos in Syria. If a Turkish "buffer zone", or "security zone" is needed to protect Turkey I'm sure Russia could turn around and say they're doing the same in Ukraine if they wanted to. Both are obviously wrong and invasions of other countries leading to loads of people getting injured and killed but if the US, UK, EU, and NATO allow one of them and go mental about the other it can make things look confusing.

[SasaS]

17 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I think he's just pointing out some of the hypocrisy of what's going on and had some good points. You could maybe add what Turkey are doing soon if they're going to cause more chaos in Syria. If a Turkish "buffer zone", or "security zone" is needed to protect Turkey I'm sure Russia could turn around and say they're doing the same in Ukraine if they wanted to. Both are obviously wrong and invasions of other countries leading to loads of people getting injured and killed but if the US, UK, EU, and NATO allow one of them and go mental about the other it can make things look confusing.

They did, in 2014.

 

What people talking about hypocrisy don't realize is things are not quite the same, it would be, in Turkey's example, if Turkey invaded (all of) Cyprus, or Greece if Greece wasn't in Nato or if they have simply attacked Syria before the war broke out, with an intention to make it Turkey or take a lot of it and make the rest a Turkey puppet state. Also, what some move does to the stability of the wider region, continent, the world.  

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, SasaS said:

They did, in 2014.

 

What people talking about hypocrisy don't realize is things are not quite the same, it would be, in Turkey's example, if Turkey invaded (all of) Cyprus, or Greece if Greece wasn't in Nato or if they have simply attacked Syria before the war broke out, with an intention to make it Turkey or take a lot of it and make the rest a Turkey puppet state. Also, what some move does to the stability of the wider region, continent, the world.  

 

I didn't say the hypocrisy was the same with the Turkey situation, just that you could maybe add it in.

[SasaS]

2 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I didn't say the hypocrisy was the same with the Turkey situation, just that you could maybe add it in.

I was more of a general comment. As in the usual "what about Yemen".

[Red Phoenix]

9 minutes ago, SasaS said:

I was more of a general comment. As in the usual "what about Yemen".

 

The original extract I posted was saying a bit more than "what about Yemen", even though I think the points about Yemen are valid.

[SasaS]

10 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

The original extract I posted was saying a bit more than "what about Yemen", even though I think the points about Yemen are valid.

I would say Saudi actions in Yemen are on a par with Russia bombing Syrian opposition (and ISIS when it absolutely had to).

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, SasaS said:

I would say Saudi actions in Yemen are on a par with Russia bombing Syrian opposition (and ISIS when it absolutely had to).

 

I've never seen that comparison before and would say that the Saudi-led campaign in Yemen has led to a way worse situation that what Russia has done in Syria. This is probably going way off topic anyway so I'll try and leave it.

[SasaS]

14 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I've never seen that comparison before and would say that the Saudi-led campaign in Yemen has led to a way worse situation that what Russia has done in Syria. This is probably going way off topic anyway so I'll try and leave it.

I bet you didn't, judging from sources you usually link to.

[Red Phoenix]

46 minutes ago, SasaS said:

I bet you didn't, judging from sources you usually link to.

 

I think comparing Russia and Syria to Saudi Arabia and Yemen is totally off, I'm not surprised I've never seen it before.

 

As for sources, you mean like Greenwald? Yeah I didn't think he'd be accepted well seeing as he's good at calling out US bullshit. A reminder seeing as we've strayed so far from the points he was making :

 

Quote

Of course U.S. foreign policy is not devoted to spreading freedom and democracy and fighting despotism and tyranny in the world. How can a country that counts the Saudi monarchs, the Egyptian military junta, the Qatari slave owners, and the Emirati dictators as its closest partners and allies possibly claim with a straight face that it opposes tyranny and fights wars in order to protect democracy?

This has been the central deceit shaping the virtually closed propaganda system imposed by the West around the U.S./NATO role in the war in Ukraine. If Western leaders had simply acknowledged from the start the obvious truth about their role — that they regard Russia as a geopolitical adversary and seek to exploit the war in Ukraine to weaken or even break that country — at least an honest debate would have been possible. Instead, they and their corporate media allies did what they always do whenever a new war is newly marketed: they draped it in fabricated moral fairy tales about freedom-fighting and opposition to tyranny.

 

If you'd rather go along with BS like this though feel free to :

 

 

Yes, the US gov has been meddling in Ukraine since 2014 all because it cares about an "independent Ukrainian culture." Like Greenwald said, fabricated moral fairy tales.

[SasaS]

16 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I think comparing Russia and Syria to Saudi Arabia and Yemen is totally off, I'm not surprised I've never seen it before.

 

As for sources, you mean like Greenwald? Yeah I didn't think he'd be accepted well seeing as he's good at calling out US bullshit. A reminder seeing as we've strayed so far from the points he was making :

 

 

If you'd rather go along with BS like this though feel free to :

 

 

Yes, the US gov has been meddling in Ukraine since 2014 all because it cares about an "independent Ukrainian culture." Like Greenwald said, fabricated moral fairy tales.

Yeah, it is mostly fabricated straw man arguments which then get dismantled with oh such intellectual vigour and superiority. It is perfectly obvious to anybody why the US is supporting Ukraine, and also that it happens to be the right thing to do. Ukraine deserves support in its struggles to get rid of a country trying to make it (yet again) into a puppet or a client state, or simply destroying it if it can.

 

It is just anti-American dogmatism that keeps going round in circles, completely blind to any principles or parallels, devoid of any moral compass or basic humanity, which they pretend to switch on if the victim suits their political agenda, or start screaming what about... (please insert) if it doesn't.

 

Prey tell, what do you think would have happened in Ukraine if "Americans weren't meddling since 2014"? They would be dancing kazachok with Putin on the Red Square now?

[SasaS]

And I forgot, please explain the difference between Saudi intervention against the rebels in Yemen and Russian intervention against the rebels in Syria.

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, SasaS said:

Yeah, it is mostly fabricated straw man arguments which then get dismantled with oh such intellectual vigour and superiority. It is perfectly obvious to anybody why the US is supporting Ukraine, and also that it happens to be the right thing to do. Ukraine deserves support in its struggles to get rid of a country trying to make it (yet again) into a puppet or a client state, or simply destroying it if it can.

 

It is just anti-American dogmatism that keeps going round in circles, completely blind to any principles or parallels, devoid of any moral compass or basic humanity, which they pretend to switch on if the victim suits their political agenda, or start screaming what about... (please insert) if it doesn't.

 

Prey tell, what do you think would have happened in Ukraine if "Americans weren't meddling since 2014"? They would be dancing kazachok with Putin on the Red Square now?

 

I think both the Russian and US govs are well aware of the chaos they've caused and how so much of it could've been avoided if both had seriously cared about Ukraine and any idea of freedom or democracy for the country. If they'd actually cared about Ukrainian lives.

 

1 hour ago, SasaS said:

And I forgot, please explain the difference between Saudi intervention against the rebels in Yemen and Russian intervention against the rebels in Syria.

 

The results of the Saudi intervention look worse to me than how Syria ended up : UN humanitarians say $4.3 billion is needed to halt ‘worsening’ Yemen crisis

[Numero Veinticinco]

I really wish they'd just rushed Ukraine into NATO. That would have saved lives because the Russians wouldn't have attacked. You agree with that, right RP? You care about human life, so you'd like them to be in NATO so this could have been avoided?

[SasaS]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I think both the Russian and US govs are well aware of the chaos they've caused and how so much of it could've been avoided if both had seriously cared about Ukraine and any idea of freedom or democracy for the country. If they'd actually cared about Ukrainian lives.

 

How is what they did on the same level? Russia oppressed Ukraine for centuries, after independence meddled in election results, most likely poisoned leader of the opposition and future president, tried to prevent Ukraine from signing a stability and association agreement with the EU which majority wanted, organized a separatist movement and later armed insurrection, occupied and annexed Crimea, intervened militarily to save separatist insurrection and eventually invaded the whole country which it is now in the process of totally destroying by killing tens of thousands of people and annihilating the economic basis for the country's survival by deliberately knocking out all of industrial and any other infrastructure. 

 

They not only invaded, they moved in with lists of people to kill. They have executed several hundred people in Bucha alone, people who were on lists of Donbas war veterans, people linked with territorial defense structures, members of what they see as nationalist parties. Put a bullet in their head like its Chile 1973.

 

How does it even begin to compare with the US involvement?

 

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

The results of the Saudi intervention look worse to me than how Syria ended up : UN humanitarians say $4.3 billion is needed to halt ‘worsening’ Yemen crisis

That hardly answers the question what is the difference between Saudis bombing Yemeni rebels to prop up Yemen government and Russians bombing Syria rebels to prop up Syria government. Even on humanitarian crisis level.

 

[Red Phoenix]

5 hours ago, SasaS said:

And I forgot, please explain the difference between Saudi intervention against the rebels in Yemen and Russian intervention against the rebels in Syria.

 

2 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I really wish they'd just rushed Ukraine into NATO.

 

Classic thread. I'll leave you both to it.

[Numero Veinticinco]

15 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

 

Classic thread. I'll leave you both to it.

There’s a bit more to what I said in that post, mate. I really don’t get why so many people on this site have trouble asking basic questions. Russia have said they won’t attack NATO countries, you said you care about human life, so if they were ok NATO they would have been safe. So… why not? 

[SasaS]

I think it's over. He simply destroyed us with that reply.

[Red Phoenix]

4 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I really wish they'd just rushed Ukraine into NATO.

 

Surely you know a bit about NATO right? Ask yourself that question then. Why didn't they rush them in? You might come up with several reasons.

 

Sometimes people don't answer questions because they get bored of going around in circles.

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Surely you know a bit about NATO right? Ask yourself that question then. Why didn't they rush them in? You might come up with several reasons.

 

Sometimes people don't answer questions because they get bored of going around in circles.

Well, it’s hard to argue the last point when it’s the first time it is asked. I think it is because they don’t like the answer. Why are you avoiding just answering the question? 
 

 

[Gnasher]

4 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Well, it’s hard to argue the last point when it’s the first time it is asked. I think it is because they don’t like the answer. Why are you avoiding just answering the question? 
 

 

Ha. Every fucking thread. Pompous bullshit.

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Ha. Every fucking thread. Pompous bullshit.

Brilliant. He’s now following me around.