Paris shootings

[Gnasher]

The one good thing to come out of the Iraq war is it finally stopped us flooding the middle east with British made weapons.

 

 

Oh fuck..

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/philip-hammond-says-he-wants-to-sell-even-more-weapons-to-saudi-arabia-a6730066.html

[dennis tooth]

How can you wipe out an ideology when the very act of confronting it perpetuates its existence.

I dont remember us confronting the saudis behind all of this?

[dennis tooth]

How can you wipe out an ideology when the very act of confronting it perpetuates its existence.

I dont remember us confronting the saudis behind all of this?

If that analysis is true then we have no alternative other that total war. We cannot sit back while European capitals become shooting galleries.

Withdrawl from the middle east would just allow this cancer to grow unchecked.

Weve been at total war in the middle east for a long time its what got us here.

 

The usa could wipe out isis in half an hour considering the no fly zones they control over syria and iraq and sophisticated drones that can detect a fart from a thousand miles away but they prefer to just watch the slaughter and air drop them humvees, fatigues and arms lest we upset the saudis.

[Brownie]

I'm not suggesting this is the case for you, but several people that have changed their Facebook picture will have done so because other people have changed their Facebook picture. This week's done thing is grief for Paris. Next week they'll forget all about it and go back to posting pictures of their tea.

 

No make up selfie, ice bucket challenge, the rainbow picture change things, etc, etc. I don't think there is much thought that goes into their actions at all, it's just Facebook fashion.

 

To answer your point specifically though, I don't think it's proximity that is the defining factor. After all, the Boston bombings got more coverage than any of the various deaths in the Middle East, Asia and Africa. No, sadly, it's a little more unpleasant than that, I think. Americans, the French, they're rich Western nations, their people are worth more than those in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa. Jonathan Cook wrote a piece on this yesterday, it probably makes for quite uncomfortable reading for some people. But essentially a lot of people are just a bit racist.

 

http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2015-11-14/outrage-at-paris-attacks-masks-our-racism/

The Facebook thing actually comes from Facebook itself, it proactively gives you the option of changing your profile pic to show solidarity etc. You don't have to do it of course, it's personal choice.

 

Of course it makes no difference at all to the families etc but at least it shows that people are thinking about it and that's got to be better than ignorance hasn't it?

 

I take your point about Boston, I suppose it all comes down to relation. We share our culture with the likes of the US, France etc so when terrorism hits the normal daily activities that we have in common then it strikes more of a chord. I don't see it as racism at all personally in a general sense, of course that will come into it for a minority.

 

I think there's a bit of a sneering attitude towards what is fundamentally intended to be a positive action. There's so much over-analysis of everything (we're all guilty of it).

[dennis tooth]

The Islamic world is at war with itself - as it has been off and on ever since the death of their Prophet. There are periods when powerful tyrants can keep a lid on things but sooner or later it all blows again and the fundamentalist nutters take cente stage again. The question for the West is whether it stands by and watches the massacres or gets involved and accused of stirring the pot (again).

Ah right weve been standing by and watching, its not like a million iraqis died since our invasion or us funding rebels in syria against assad could possibly have as much to do with it as a man who lived a thousand year ago.

[Brownie]

I think that's a person's first instinct but then when you have a think about it, why is a life in Paris more important than one in Syria? I'm not on Facebook but if I was, I certainly wouldn't be doing all this French stuff, it means fuck all to the victims families or to the terrorists, it's just a 'look at me' exercise as far as I can make out.

 

Praying for Paris won't do anyone any good because there's no God, it's a pointless fucking soundbite.

Who has suggested that a life in Paris is worth more than a life in Syria? I bet that Facebook users in Syria have more focus on local atrocities than what happened in Paris and I think that's only natural.

 

That doesn't make me think that they value their own deaths more than others, just that it feels more raw because it's closer to home.

 

People can't win really, if they carry on with their lives then they're ignorant, if they try to show that they're thinking of others they're accused of vanity.

[Jairzinho]

The Facebook thing actually comes from Facebook itself, it proactively gives you the option of changing your profile pic to show solidarity etc. You don't have to do it of course, it's personal choice.

 

Of course it makes no difference at all to the families etc but at least it shows that people are thinking about it and that's got to be better than ignorance hasn't it?

 

I take your point about Boston, I suppose it all comes down to relation. We share our culture with the likes of the US, France etc so when terrorism hits the normal daily activities that we have in common then it strikes more of a chord. I don't see it as racism at all personally in a general sense, of course that will come into it for a minority.

 

I think there's a bit of a sneering attitude towards what is fundamentally intended to be a positive action. There's so much over-analysis of everything (we're all guilty of it).

 

I think there's very little analysis of anything actually. It isn't sneering, it's frustration. Frustration at selective grief and at times simply faux grief.

 

I don't feel that it's better than ignorance, it is ignorance.

[dennis tooth]

We probably would have been far better off leaving Saddam, Gaddafi and Assad well alone to oppress and kill their own people as they wanted. But we are where we are.

Two of those we sold arms to to oppress their people with and supported at various times.

[Brownie]

I think there's very little analysis of anything actually. It isn't sneering, it's frustration. Frustration at selective grief and at times simply faux grief.

 

I don't feel that it's better than ignorance, it is ignorance.

It sounds like you have issues with the quality of the analysis more than anything, which I don't necessarily disagree with.

 

The mere fact that we're having this discussion proves that it's not ignorance.

 

The whole situation (terrorism, religion etc) is so complex that people don't feel as if they're in any position to do much about it, is my general view. You can call it ignorance but I think that's being unfair, personally.

[Mook]

I think the media certainly portray a life in Paris as more important than one in Syria with their coverage, people on Facebook tend to follow.

 

Anyway Jairzinho is more articulate than me in terms of what I'm trying to say.

[Rico1304]

Dennis, I'm all out neg, time to take the meds kid.

[Brownie]

I think the media certainly portray a life in Paris as more important than one in Syria with their coverage, people on Facebook tend to follow.

 

Anyway Jairzinho is more articulate than me in terms of what I'm trying to say.

British media?

[Dougie Do'ins]

No prizes for predicting what tomorrow's headline in The Paper That Supported Hitler was always going to be.

 

 

What if it's true ? Do people not need or have the right to know ? Or is it the timing that's wrong.

 

I see the BBC and other news outlets are reporting it too. 

[Mook]

Aye, the British media.

 

And the proximity is irrelevant, they'd report it the same if it was in Sydney or LA.

[Brownie]

Aye, the British media.

 

And the proximity is irrelevant, they'd report it the same if it was in Sydney or LA.

Yes, because those countries generally share the same culture. Cultural similarities and proximity will always have an impact on public opinion and media coverage in my opinion.

 

But as I said earlier it's not just limited to that, as the refugee crisis proved. Facebook was full of solidarity towards the plight of Syrian refugees, so much so that it actually had an impact on the changing of personal opinion and government policy.

[dennis tooth]

Someone's been watching far too much Homeland.

All very cryptic.

Who are the real bad guys?

Today? Definitely the little fuckwits killing youngsters at a rock concert I'd say.

I don't understand the argument that "we're as bad as them"

War tends to mean people are killed on both sides. We didn't subscribe to Hitler's ideology, he thought we should. Millions of Germans died because of it. I doubt there was a balanced media report of each time a German town was bombed. It was a celebrated victory no doubt.

Isis play on the fact that we now feel we have moved on so much that in the face of such atrocities we role out the usual clichés but do very little.

The fact is a Syrian can rightly be respected and cared for and welcomed in the capitals of Europe.

A European is likely to have his head cut off in the capital of Syria.

Or likely as a european in syria get bombed by USA drones as a suspect of terrorism. Theyll bomb the ambulances that try to put you back together and the hospital if you get there.

[dennis tooth]

Well given at least one of the attackers has now been confirmed as arriving in Greece last month from Syria I'd say some of the earlier posts look a bit silly regarding what I'd said.

It's a major problem to be honest and it's not going to end well least of all for the legit refugees

One of them rode into france on a sedgeway, another rode in on a surfboard, lets hope it also 'doesnt end well' for sedgeway riders and surfers.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Is it just me who's not that arsed about people changing their Facebook pic to one with a French flag filter?

 

Yes, tragic and horrific events happen elsewhere with less publicity, but people getting slaughtered doing the things we do like dining out, having a drink, going to a concert etc is pretty full on and if people want to make even the most token of gestures to condemn this and show a bit of sympathy/sadness to so many needless deaths, well, it's hardly crime of the century now. I haven't got such a profile pic myself, but I don't really see that big an issue with it.

 

In other news, not yet confirmed or mentioned by other sources, but the Wall Street Journal are claiming that one of the Stade De France suicide bombers had a ticket for the match and exploded his device only after he was stopped from entering the ground.

 

Thankfully. The death toll and psychological after effect if he was successful would have been much higher.

[Chip Butty]

The media go to bed every night praying to wake up to some sort of morale indignation angle so they can appease their readers, massage their opinions and imply that they're at one with 'your' opinions. Drop in a bit of sensationalism and shock - and hey presto! They're selling papers. You could almost hear the editors phones going haywire on Friday night once the news started filtering through and their immediate ideas of what headline they can knock out, 48 hours later and one of them has managed to work the SAS into it. No one does shock like the British press. You could argue they(the British press) are the IS of the media world. Shock and Horror is their mainstay and their doctrine should be our agenda.

 

A very large pinch of salt is needed with the British press.  

[AngryOfTuebrook]

What if it's true ? Do people not need or have the right to know ? Or is it the timing that's wrong.

 

I see the BBC and other news outlets are reporting it too. 

If it were true, I'd agree that people should be informed.

 

This is what the BBC are reporting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34822265

One attacker has been identified as a French national.  A Syrian passport was found at the scene of one of the attacks.  The rightful holder of that passport entered Greece as a refugee in October.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-34825270

However, French authorities have not confirmed whether the passport is real, and it is not known at this stage whether the same person who used it to pass through Greece was the person involved in the Paris attacks. 

 

That's not the story that the Hatred on Sunday is giving out at all.

[Moo]

What if it's true ? Do people not need or have the right to know ? Or is it the timing that's wrong.

 

I see the BBC and other news outlets are reporting it too.

Once confirmed as fact (is it?) I have no problem with it being reported as news. But if they are speculating, or reporting it as "reportedly" then that's extremely irresponsible. Look at this thread just for starters, it was being treated as fact yesterday afternoon and people were asking for apologies. Imagine the number of ignorant fucks who also took it, or portrayed it as, fact in this country who've now got that in their minds which won't be changed. It's scary.

[Dougie Do'ins]

Kay Burley's at the scene now so all is well.

Oh no it fucking well isn't.

 

https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/665807478060392448

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Dennis, I'm all out neg, time to take the meds kid.

I've been reading Toothy's interventions and sulking because I'm all out of rep.

 

Diff'rent strokes, eh.

[Anubis]

There is an interesting point in the Cook article where he refers to being given a taste of our own medicine. I wouldn't quite put it like that, but I was thinking about public reaction and outrage to Paris, 11/9, and and London, etc. that is true for many Western nations.

 

The vast majority of the population are of an age where they were sufficiently removed from WWII for it to be mainly stories to them. Unlike the majority of the world's nations who have been involved, or are involved in wars, we've been relatively cosseted. If we are fighting somebody abroad it's all film or pictures or words in newspapers and online. Save the IRA mainland campaign, which wasn't relentless in it's regularity, few of us have experienced the first hand effect of war.

 

Now we have an enemy who can reach us, and perhaps with some regularity, so I'm afraid that we're going to gain a bit more experience in what it is like to live with the daily threat of car bombing and suicide bombing and shooting, as they do in places like Iraq, Syria, Kabul, Lebanon, and Libya, to name but a few. It may wake up a lot of the population as to what we're actually involving ourselves in.

[Anubis]

Oh no it fucking well isn't.

 

https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/665807478060392448

Some of the Tweets under that are superb. She is one useless fucking journalist.