Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

And no British participation in the EU, EEC

 

 

Thatcher meanwhile;

We can speculate - pointlessly - about whether Labour would have been able to successfully overturn the result of a referendum just 8 years earlier and what that would have meant for the UK and Europe.

http://www.labour-party.org.uk/manifestos/1983/1983-labour-manifesto.shtml

 

What we should be able to agree on is that the circumstances of the UK's membership of the EU in 2016 were fundamentally different to its membership a third of a century earlier: even if you think we should have left in 1983, it doesn't follow that the leave vote in 2016 was right.

[Gnasher]

7 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

We can speculate - pointlessly - about whether Labour would have been able to successfully overturn the result of a referendum just 8 years earlier and what that would have meant for the UK and Europe.

http://www.labour-party.org.uk/manifestos/1983/1983-labour-manifesto.shtml

 

What we should be able to agree on is that the circumstances of the UK's membership of the EU in 2016 were fundamentally different to its membership a third of a century earlier: even if you think we should have left in 1983, it doesn't follow that the leave vote in 2016 was right.

Some fair points but it's ridiculous to pretend our exit from the EU was almost solely pushed from xenophobic/bigots/racists from the right. It's not true and many many Labour father figures were against our participation in the the EU/EEC. 

 

Foot, Bevan, Atlee, Cartland, Benn,Peter Shore, Bob Crow, all off the top of my head!!!  Corbyn??

 

Fuck me that's some list, that's a one he'll of a list!!  All the Labour socialist dignitaries totally against the EU/EEC 

 

If you truly believe in a just and equal world, why oh why would you ignore and dismiss the thoughts of people mentioned above?

 

 

[Gnasher]

Fair article imo this, showing both sides to the Brexit/low paid workers debate. I have got a bit of sympathy with the coffee shop owner but to answer his question I'm the last paragraph of why workers are not attracted the answer is mainly 'wages'. 

 

"‘I don’t blame customers for getting annoyed’: a coffee house owner on life without EU workers | Food & drink industry | The Guardian" https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/nov/17/i-dont-blame-customers-for-getting-annoyed-a-coffee-house-owner-on-life-without-eu-workers

 

 

Brexit has changed the game (for the better) regarding employing low paid workers in previous low paid industries, if employers are not willing to pay a living wage they are going to struggle.

 

 To carry on the pretence that brexit hasn't led to staff shortages/ more vacancies/pay rises is becoming more preposterous by the day, a local kid applying for a job in the shop in the article in Birmingham will A; have a better chance of landing the job; and B: be on a better rate of pay once they get the job, and a very similar scenario is happening in almost every town, city, farm, construction site throughout the country. Whilst Brexit has some major down sides to deny the positives seems a tad spiteful, especially as the positives mainly benefit the low paid.

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

 Bloody Brexit;

 

"UK job vacancies surge to record high 2.7 million as labour shortage worsens | The Independent" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/job-vacancies-labour-shortage-b1956832.html?amp

[AngryOfTuebrook]

26 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 Bloody Brexit;

 

"UK job vacancies surge to record high 2.7 million as labour shortage worsens | The Independent" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/job-vacancies-labour-shortage-b1956832.html?amp

Are you still pretending that labour shortages per se are a good thing?

 

As that article makes clear, the shortages caused by the pandemic have been exacerbated by Brexit. That is likely to be a drain on the economy for the foreseeable future and (with the Brexit-enabled right wing of the Tory Party in absolute power) it's not the bosses who are going to pay, in the medium/long term.

[Gnasher]

49 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Are you still pretending that labour shortages per se are a good thing?

Swings and roundabouts, it's definitely swung more in favour to labour than capital. Shortages are definitely good for jobseekers and those workers negotiating wage rates, especially those in low paid professions. 

49 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

As that article makes clear, the shortages caused by the pandemic have been exacerbated by Brexit. That is likely to be a drain on the economy for the foreseeable future and (with the Brexit-enabled right wing of the Tory Party in absolute power) it's not the bosses who are going to pay, in the medium/long term.

 

Not still arguing Brexit hasn't been a major factor in labour shortages are you Angry? You'll end up like some old Japanese fella rumbling around in bush gallantly fighting a war lost long long ago.

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

 

Not still arguing Brexit hasn't been a major factor in labour shortages are you Angry? You'll end up like some old Japanese fella rumbling around in bush gallantly fighting a war lost long long ago.

You make that sound like it's a bad thing 

[Rico1304]

These are the sunlit uplands we were promised.  

 

 

[Bjornebye]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

41 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The inflation rise is mainly down to rising petrol and gas prices. The 4.2 is temporary and still low compared to other western countries. USA is 5.4, Germany is 4.5.

 

Some economists argue that certain level of inflation shows a robust economy and thus is seen as a good thing, an example being firms invest in machinery etc to expand rather than sit on money knowing inflation will push assets they buy up whilst the value of money will decrease. Thatchers lowest ever inflation rate was 5.5% and it was her economic blueprint 'moneterism' that pushed for low interest rates. 

 

The intelligence sharing report is undoubtedly not a good thing although I doubt it would have prevented the recent attacks in Southend or Liverpool. Not good though and something that needs to be resolved I agree, although the threat from terrorism in this country is still thankfully extremely slim.

 

 Not sure and haven't heard about this Amazon thing on payments, my initial response though is fuck em.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

40 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Some economists argue that certain level of inflation shows a robust economy and thus is seen as a good thing, an example being firms invest in machinery etc to expan rather than sit on money knowing inflation will push assets they buy up whilst the value of money will decrease. 

Inflation can be caused by a robust and growing economy if - and only if - you have a robust and growing economy. 

 

Inflation can also be caused by shortages caused by a global pandemic and exacerbated by an isolationist act of economic self-harm.

 

Only one of these situations applies to the UK.

[Gnasher]

14 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Inflation can be caused by a robust and growing economy if - and only if - you have a robust and growing economy. 

 

Inflation can also be caused by shortages caused by a global pandemic and exacerbated by an isolationist act of economic self-harm.

 

Only one of these situations applies to the UK.

The top one if you go by growth compared to other eu countries.

 

The rising inflation rate is world wide caused by rising fuel and gas prices, to link it to brexot is fanciful and worthy of a John Cleese "bloody brexit" pisstake for those who pin unrelated problems on us leaving the EU. 

 

Did someone mention Amazon? Bloody Brexit,

 

"Revealed: Amazon to open 260 supermarkets across UK as it plots to take on Tesco and Sainsbury’s directly" https://www.cityam.com/revealed-amazon-to-open-260-supermarkets-across-uk-as-it-plots-to-take-on-on-tesco-and-sainsburys-directly/?amp=1

 

[Gnasher]

47 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Inflation can be caused by a robust and growing economy if - and only if - you have a robust and growing economy. 

 

Inflation can also be caused by shortages caused by a global pandemic and exacerbated by an isolationist act of economic self-harm.

 

Only one of these situations applies to the UK.

Yep 7the top one, bloody brexit,

 

Here you go; 

 

"OECD: UK muscles out G7 to top economic growth rankings" https://www.cityam.com/oecd-uk-muscles-out-g7-to-top-economic-growth-rankings/

 

 

For those who remember 3 million unemployed

 

"The UK has record job vacancies and businesses blame Brexit — Quartz" https://qz.com/2073299/the-uk-has-record-job-vacancies-and-businesses-blame-brexit/

[AngryOfTuebrook]

21 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

The top one if you go by growth compared to other eu countries.

 

The rising inflation rate is world wide caused by rising fuel and gas prices, to link it to brexot is fanciful and worthy of a John Cleese "bloody brexit" pisstake for those who pin unrelated problems on us leaving the EU. 

 

Did someone mention Amazon? Bloody Brexit,

 

"Revealed: Amazon to open 260 supermarkets across UK as it plots to take on Tesco and Sainsbury’s directly" https://www.cityam.com/revealed-amazon-to-open-260-supermarkets-across-uk-as-it-plots-to-take-on-on-tesco-and-sainsburys-directly/?amp=1

 

Extraordinary point-swerving.

 

UK's growth is far from "robust" - we're lagging behind EU nations in the attempt to return to pre-pandemic levels of GDP.

 

Global inflation (even in the prices of oil and gas) is driven by supply shortages caused by the pandemic; Brexit makes these shortages more severe (a fact that you were celebrating just a few posts ago).

 

The reference to Amazon wasn't really about Amazon, but about the fact that it's becoming harder for British people to use internationally accepted means of payment.

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

14 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Yep 7the top one, bloody brexit,

 

Here you go; 

 

"OECD: UK muscles out G7 to top economic growth rankings" https://www.cityam.com/oecd-uk-muscles-out-g7-to-top-economic-growth-rankings/

 

 

For those who remember 3 million unemployed

 

"The UK has record job vacancies and businesses blame Brexit — Quartz" https://qz.com/2073299/the-uk-has-record-job-vacancies-and-businesses-blame-brexit/

The UK's economy was hit harder than most by the pandemic. 

 

Now, imagine Country A loses 10% of its GDP, but recovers 7%. Meanwhile, Country B loses 4% but recovers 3%. Even though 7 is greater than 3, it's clear that Country A is faring worse overall.

 

Context. You always need context.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I do feel helpless watching the atrocities playing out on the Poland/Belarus border when I haven't got so much as an MEP to write to.

 

It's 4,000 people. The EU can accommodate them. Just let the fuckers in, get them settled and carry on with the bickering later.

[Jordy Brouwer]

Its easy for people to see what they want to see is pretty much the gist of this discussion. Brexit has been economically harmful (broadly) but to put inflation on its account is a bit suspect when inflation is running even hotter in the USA and elsewhere. Mind you its also a bit suspect to pretend that inflation and labour shortages are good things. 

 

Its hard to isolate the effects of Brexit in a hyper complex economy and that provides a lot of grey area for people to confirm their bias and see what they want. 

[Gnasher]

6 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Extraordinary point-swerving.

 

UK's growth is far from "robust" - we're lagging behind EU nations in the attempt to return to pre-pandemic levels of GDP.

We are definitely not lagging behind other eu countries, our growth forecast from a standing start outstrips the rest of Europe

 

6 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Global inflation (even in the prices of oil and gas) is driven by supply shortages caused by the pandemic; Brexit makes these shortages more severe (a fact that you were celebrating just a few posts ago).

We have inflation lower than Germany, sort of blows a hole in whole Brexit/Shortages argument.

6 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The reference to Amazon wasn't really about Amazon, but about the fact that it's becoming harder for British people to use internationally accepted means of payment.

 

 

Its a miniscule change, you can still pay by all other cards and visa debit. I believe it only affects credit cards (though havnt looked fully into it so may be wrong) I think we can park this one in the disastrous days of Nandos running low on chicken category. 

[Gnasher]

3 minutes ago, Jordy Brouwer said:

Its easy for people to see what they want to see is pretty much the gist of this discussion. Brexit has been economically harmful (broadly) but to put inflation on its account is a bit suspect when inflation is running even hotter in the USA and elsewhere. Mind you its also a bit suspect to pretend that inflation and labour shortages are good things. 

 

Its hard to isolate the effects of Brexit in a hyper complex economy and that provides a lot of grey area for people to confirm their bias and see what they want. 

Very true, to pin the increase on inflation on us leaving the EU is ludicrous especially when other eu countries have a higher inflation rate.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

10 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

We are definitely not lagging behind other eu countries, our growth forecast from a standing start outstrips the rest of Europe

 

The EU is already back to pre-pandemic levels of GDP. The UK isn't expected to get there for a while.

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/economic-performance-and-forecasts/economic-forecasts/autumn-2021-economic-forecast_en

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-gdp-rose-0-6-percent-in-september-but-still-lags-pre-pandemic-levels/

[Gnasher]

10 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The EU is already back to pre-pandemic levels of GDP. The UK isn't expected to get there for a while.

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/economic-performance-and-forecasts/economic-forecasts/autumn-2021-economic-forecast_en

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-gdp-rose-0-6-percent-in-september-but-still-lags-pre-pandemic-levels/

'Brexit has hardly been the unmitigated disaster for UK economy some predicted, the apocalypse hasn't happened, the UK economy has not fallen off a cliff, unless you read middle class political analysts or the Change UK mob who've taken over twitter.

 

Meanwhile out on the streets its Britpop 2, low to middle paid formally neglected working class kids have the swagger of Liam Gallagher, they can tell their boss to go fuck himself if he/she is on the receiving end of unwarranted shit whilst in work, plenty of other jobs out there.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

19 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

'Brexit has hardly been the unmitigated disaster for UK economy some predicted, the apocalypse hasn't happened, the UK economy has not fallen off a cliff, unless you read middle class political analysts or the Change UK mob who've taken over twitter.

 

Meanwhile out on the streets its Britpop 2, low to middle paid formally neglected working class kids have the swagger of Liam Gallagher, they can tell their boss to go fuck himself if he/she is on the receiving end of unwarranted shit whilst in work, plenty of other jobs out there.

What world do you live in?

[Gnasher]

10 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

What world do you live in?

This one, 

 

"Pay jumps and job vacancies top 1 million in post-pandemic boom | Evening Standard" https://www.standard.co.uk/business/pay-salary-increases-job-vacancies-1-million-post-covid-boom-ons-b955189.html?amp

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

This one, 

 

"Pay jumps and job vacancies top 1 million in post-pandemic boom | Evening Standard" https://www.standard.co.uk/business/pay-salary-increases-job-vacancies-1-million-post-covid-boom-ons-b955189.html?amp

Right. The world in which shortages (mostly caused by Covid) are impeding recovery and leading to inflation.

[Arniepie]

2 hours ago, Jordy Brouwer said:

Its easy for people to see what they want to see is pretty much the gist of this discussion. Brexit has been economically harmful (broadly) but to put inflation on its account is a bit suspect when inflation is running even hotter in the USA and elsewhere. Mind you its also a bit suspect to pretend that inflation and labour shortages are good things. 

 

Its hard to isolate the effects of Brexit in a hyper complex economy and that provides a lot of grey area for people to confirm their bias and see what they want. 

True

But I suspect if you had a pro and con list,one would be significantly higher than the other