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Should the UK remain a member of the EU

  

301 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the UK remain a member of the EU

    • Yes
      244
    • No
      57


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13 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

I just find it odd that Corbyn seems to be infallible on here. I'm sure some Remainers must be pissed off with his flip flopping on this issue and his inability to forge alliances with parties - even if they are ideologically aligned on certain issues. It's a deep character flaw. I don't know when people will finally say enough is enough. I presume it'll be after he loses the next election, but it's so glaringly obvious, and has been for a few years that he's just incompetent. 

The reason he’s constantly attacked by your right leaning media i.e. most papers, as well as the Tory and Lib Dem politicians... is the same reason that got him elected as the Labour Party leader by the members time and again.

 

It has very little to do with ‘competence’, but on the main it is because of his principles and ideological stance e.g., anti-austerity, pro-equal rights in Palestine, social and economic justice. You can even see on the topic of Brexit, how he’s been called a secret brexiteer, a traitor, too principled, and too indecisive all at once?!? Some right wingers even out some blame on him wrt the latest mass shooting in the US.

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1 minute ago, Boss said:

That's true, but with political alliances you can thwart the other side from implementing their own strategy. 

Not if the Government is using public money to bribe other parties to ensure they have a majority , but even with that he has been a significant part of 2 Tory leaders leaving their posts.

 

 

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Just now, viRdjil said:

The reason he’s constantly attacked by your right leaning media i.e. most papers, as well as the Tory and Lib Dem politicians... is the same reason how he got elected as the Labour Party leader by the members. It has very little to do with ‘competence’, but on the main it is because of his principles and ideological stance e.g., anti-austerity, pro-equal rights in Palestine, social and economic justice.

 

Are your principles more important than being in power? Would you be happy to preserve your principles and see another 20 years of Tory rule for instance?

 

Principles are a guideline. Power is the ability to galvanise your own support, forge alliances and compromise, when needed, to attain power. Corbyn doesn't compromise, and it's a big character flaw.

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4 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Not if the Government is using public money to bribe other parties to ensure they have a majority , but even with that he has been a significant part of 2 Tory leaders leaving their posts.

 

I'll give you May. Cameron wiped himself out. 

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15 minutes ago, Boss said:

That's true, but with political alliances you can thwart the other side from implementing their own strategy. 

Theresa May's Government suffered more defeats in the Commons than any Government for 40 years.  Her flagship policy was the subject of the heaviest defeat ever.  She lost so often that her own Party forced her out.  How much thwarting do you want?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Government_defeats_in_the_House_of_Commons_(1945–present)#May_(majority_government)

 

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5 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

Are your principles more important than being in power? Would you be happy to preserve your principles and see another 20 years of Tory rule for instance?

 

Principles are a guideline. Power is the ability to galvanise your own support, forge alliances and compromise, when needed, to attain power. Corbyn doesn't compromise, and it's a big character flaw.

I wouldn’t no.. but some obviously would, and that’s fine as that’s democracy. If labour members want a more electable (whatever that means) centrist leader in the future, then they wouldn’t vote for him in their next leadership. I’m lucky enough to be able to move between four different countries (although I concede that none are very appealing at present).

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7 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

By galvanise i mean have the backing of the vast majority of Labour MP's. 

Blair used an undemocratic system of patronage to impose MPs on solid Labour constituencies who were more loyal to their own careers than to their constituents.  The Party is now more democratic.  There remain a number of tiresome antidemocratic windbags in Westminster who will never support democratic Socialism, despite being paid by a democratic Socialist Party.  

 

Corbyn has the backing of the Party members.  That's worth far more than the backing of MPs.

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Back to the subject at hand...

 

What ministers said about prorogation before they put their own careers before the interests of the country

 

1) @NickyMorgan01 , culture sec: 'It would lead to a constitutional crisis.'

 

2) @MattHancock, health sec: 'There is this idea from some people that to deliver Brexit we should suspend our parliamentary democracy, we should prorogue parliament. That goes against everything those men who waded onto those beaches fought & died for - and I will not have it'

 

3) @AmberRuddHR  dd work & pensions sec: 'The idea of leaving the EU to take back more control into parliament and to consider the idea of closing parliament to do that is the most extraordinary idea I've ever heard. It is a ridiculous suggestion to consider Proroguing parliament

 

4) Sajid Javid, chancellor: You don't deliver on democracy by trashing democracy . . . we are not selecting a dictator of our country"

 

5) @MattHancock  again: Proroguing Parliament undermines parliamentary democracy. I rule it out and call on all candidates to do the same

 

6) @AmberRuddHR   again: 'I think it’s outrageous to consider proroguing Parliament. We are not Stuart kings.”

 

7) @MattHancock   yet again: 'A policy on Brexit to prorogue Parliament would mean the end of the Conservative Party as a serious party of government'

 

8) @michaelgove , Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster: 'I think it will be wrong for many reasons. I think it would not be true to the best traditions of British democracy

 

9) @NickyMorgan01  again: 'Proroguing Parliament is clearly a mad suggestion. You cannot say you are going to take back control … and then go: ‘Oh, by the way, we are just going to shut Parliament down for a couple of months, so we are just going to drift out on a no deal’

 

10) @andrealeadsom , business sec, was asked if she could go along with such a plan. 'No I don’t believe I would and I don’t believe it would happen.'

 

11) @andrealeadsom  also said: 'It's certainly not something I would seek to do. I'm passionate about parliament democracy.'

 

12) @GeorgeFreemanMP , transport minister: 'The idea that a new PM will want, let alone be allowed by backbench MPs or Peers, to prorogue Parliament is bonkers. It would look appalling.'

 

13) @michaelgove  again: 'One reason I argued to leave the EU was to make our parliament stronger, to reinvigorate our democracy. It would be a terrible thing if having said we should have more power in our country & trust our institutions more we shut the doors of parliament'

 

14) @BorisJohnson , PM (h/t @Sandbach ): 'I would like to make it absolutely clear that I am not attracted to arcane procedures such as the prorogation of Parliament. As someone who aspires to be the PM of a democratic nation, I believe in finding consensus in the House of Commons'

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Back to the subject at hand...

 

What ministers said about prorogation before they put their own careers before the interests of the country

 

1) @NickyMorgan01 , culture sec: 'It would lead to a constitutional crisis.'

 

2) @MattHancock, health sec: 'There is this idea from some people that to deliver Brexit we should suspend our parliamentary democracy, we should prorogue parliament. That goes against everything those men who waded onto those beaches fought & died for - and I will not have it'

 

3) @AmberRuddHR  dd work & pensions sec: 'The idea of leaving the EU to take back more control into parliament and to consider the idea of closing parliament to do that is the most extraordinary idea I've ever heard. It is a ridiculous suggestion to consider Proroguing parliament

 

4) Sajid Javid, chancellor: You don't deliver on democracy by trashing democracy . . . we are not selecting a dictator of our country"

 

5) @MattHancock  again: Proroguing Parliament undermines parliamentary democracy. I rule it out and call on all candidates to do the same

 

6) @AmberRuddHR   again: 'I think it’s outrageous to consider proroguing Parliament. We are not Stuart kings.”

 

7) @MattHancock   yet again: 'A policy on Brexit to prorogue Parliament would mean the end of the Conservative Party as a serious party of government'

 

8) @michaelgove , Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster: 'I think it will be wrong for many reasons. I think it would not be true to the best traditions of British democracy

 

9) @NickyMorgan01  again: 'Proroguing Parliament is clearly a mad suggestion. You cannot say you are going to take back control … and then go: ‘Oh, by the way, we are just going to shut Parliament down for a couple of months, so we are just going to drift out on a no deal’

 

10) @andrealeadsom , business sec, was asked if she could go along with such a plan. 'No I don’t believe I would and I don’t believe it would happen.'

 

11) @andrealeadsom  also said: 'It's certainly not something I would seek to do. I'm passionate about parliament democracy.'

 

12) @GeorgeFreemanMP , transport minister: 'The idea that a new PM will want, let alone be allowed by backbench MPs or Peers, to prorogue Parliament is bonkers. It would look appalling.'

 

13) @michaelgove  again: 'One reason I argued to leave the EU was to make our parliament stronger, to reinvigorate our democracy. It would be a terrible thing if having said we should have more power in our country & trust our institutions more we shut the doors of parliament'

 

14) @BorisJohnson , PM (h/t @Sandbach ): 'I would like to make it absolutely clear that I am not attracted to arcane procedures such as the prorogation of Parliament. As someone who aspires to be the PM of a democratic nation, I believe in finding consensus in the House of Commons'

 

 

 

We'll have to see what the next few days bring and hope that some of these self serving twats put their money where there mouth is. 

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29 minutes ago, Sixtimes Dog said:

 

Someone with a net approval rating of higher than -42% I would have thought.

I suppose that’s kind of my point. If you replace him with some else with the same principles as him; anti-war, anti-austerity, pro-equal rights in Palestine, social and economic justice... then he’d be constantly smeared by the right wing media too, and as a result, his net approval rating would be there or thereabouts. Is there even a labour politician as popular as he is at the moment?

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You know that idiom about closing the stable door after the horse has bolted? Well in Remainer world they'd sign a petition first before closing the stable door. 

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4 hours ago, Boss said:

You know that idiom about closing the stable door after the horse has bolted? Well in Remainer world they'd sign a petition first before closing the stable door. 

So what should people who are opposed to the way the government is being run and they way we are being forced out without a deal (which no one wanted during the original vote - as they were told that we would have a better deal) show their frustrations and make their voice heard? 

 

Or would you prefer people riot in the streets? You’re on a complete wind up on this thread which may be amusing for you but is tedious for the likes of me to read. But still you get a few laughs (in your own head) while the country goes to shit.

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The petition is now well over 1.1 million votes. More interesting is the vote distribution, from over 6% of the total constituents in places like Brighton down to under 0.5% in some of the eastern constituencies like Skegness and midland ones like Dudley.

 

Can't help wondering what a fuss the right wing press would have made had it been Labour who'd pulled a stunt like this. They were practically apoplectic when Brown (rightly) didn't vacate Downing Street immediately after the 2010 election until a new government was formed.

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8 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Back to the subject at hand...

 

What ministers said about prorogation before they put their own careers before the interests of the country

 

1) @NickyMorgan01 , culture sec: 'It would lead to a constitutional crisis.'

 

2) @MattHancock, health sec: 'There is this idea from some people that to deliver Brexit we should suspend our parliamentary democracy, we should prorogue parliament. That goes against everything those men who waded onto those beaches fought & died for - and I will not have it'

 

3) @AmberRuddHR  dd work & pensions sec: 'The idea of leaving the EU to take back more control into parliament and to consider the idea of closing parliament to do that is the most extraordinary idea I've ever heard. It is a ridiculous suggestion to consider Proroguing parliament

 

4) Sajid Javid, chancellor: You don't deliver on democracy by trashing democracy . . . we are not selecting a dictator of our country"

 

5) @MattHancock  again: Proroguing Parliament undermines parliamentary democracy. I rule it out and call on all candidates to do the same

 

6) @AmberRuddHR   again: 'I think it’s outrageous to consider proroguing Parliament. We are not Stuart kings.”

 

7) @MattHancock   yet again: 'A policy on Brexit to prorogue Parliament would mean the end of the Conservative Party as a serious party of government'

 

8) @michaelgove , Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster: 'I think it will be wrong for many reasons. I think it would not be true to the best traditions of British democracy

 

9) @NickyMorgan01  again: 'Proroguing Parliament is clearly a mad suggestion. You cannot say you are going to take back control … and then go: ‘Oh, by the way, we are just going to shut Parliament down for a couple of months, so we are just going to drift out on a no deal’

 

10) @andrealeadsom , business sec, was asked if she could go along with such a plan. 'No I don’t believe I would and I don’t believe it would happen.'

 

11) @andrealeadsom  also said: 'It's certainly not something I would seek to do. I'm passionate about parliament democracy.'

 

12) @GeorgeFreemanMP , transport minister: 'The idea that a new PM will want, let alone be allowed by backbench MPs or Peers, to prorogue Parliament is bonkers. It would look appalling.'

 

13) @michaelgove  again: 'One reason I argued to leave the EU was to make our parliament stronger, to reinvigorate our democracy. It would be a terrible thing if having said we should have more power in our country & trust our institutions more we shut the doors of parliament'

 

14) @BorisJohnson , PM (h/t @Sandbach ): 'I would like to make it absolutely clear that I am not attracted to arcane procedures such as the prorogation of Parliament. As someone who aspires to be the PM of a democratic nation, I believe in finding consensus in the House of Commons'

 

 

 

That age old problem, people believing anything any politician says. 

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8 hours ago, Boss said:

 

Are your principles more important than being in power? Would you be happy to preserve your principles and see another 20 years of Tory rule for instance?

 

Principles are a guideline. Power is the ability to galvanise your own support, forge alliances and compromise, when needed, to attain power. Corbyn doesn't compromise, and it's a big character flaw.

Hang on. If you’re now saying Corbyn isn’t in power (at the moment) how can you ask what he’s achieved in power? Your trolling is weak.

 

Oh, and as for print money and spend, it won’t work under the Tories. They did it a few years ago and handed the money to the upper echelons so they’d spend and we’d all benefit from the mythical trickle down effect. Most of it was merely invested in shares which benefitted nobody but the shareholders, in effect seeing the biggest increase in the disparity between the rich and everyone else for the best part of a century. For it to work, the money would have to be invested in infrastructure projects led by British firms paying workers who can then go out and spend to boost the economy. The Tories won’t do that. It’ll be snouts in the trough time again.

 

The Tories love people like yourself. Useful idiots who swallow the one nation Toryism line and think they’re part of the club, but haven’t cottoned on that they’re still on the pavement outside, looking in like everyone else.

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@Anubis spot on. This complete fuck up will only serve those with little to lose. The average Joe and the ones with scraps already are the ones that are going to be hit. Brexit was nothing more than an opportunity for the fat cats to feed.

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10 hours ago, Boss said:

On a serious note, can anyone give me a list of what Jezza's achieved in power up to this point?

 

Because I genuinely can't think of one thing.

It's probably been said before , but you really should be ashamed to be using a great man's picture as your avatar . I'm fairly sure Bruce Springsteen would be appalled to learn you are a fan , you Tory fucking dimwit

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