Munich

[FanchesterCity]

Nobody could ever know what would have become of the Busby Babes as a collective or individually.

 

We have heard how Owen, Gerrard, Rooney, Hoddle, Gascoigne and were destined for the very top, whilst they were all fantastic players (some more than others), none of them became the next Maradona or Messi.

 

It doesn't matter if Bobby Charlton thinks someone would have been....

 

We'll never know. And it doesn't really matter.

 

 

 

A tragedy is a tragedy, regardless of which club, or fan base, and anybody with any semblance of sensibility or sensitivity will empathise at the pain suffered and never choose to mock such subjects (sadly more than a few morons do).

 

I firmly believe the Munich disaster helped make Man United what it is today. It helped define the club, and garnered a whole wave of fans across the world - which they reap the benefits of today. They won the hearts of countless millions.

 

I welcome any move between any two sets of fans to put aside the cruel and shameful mocking of tragedies. If it helps to steer rivalry back to the pitch and not the terraces, all the better in my book.

[Bjornebye]

i fucking hate them but this goes beyond that. i know to most of us it is more than just a game but people lost their lives tragically and for that we should show respect.

I cringe when i hear these little nobheads at the match singing munich songs, just as much as i do when i hear hillsbrough chants. makes my blood boil - we out of any club should know what tragedy feels like.

RIP

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

Tragic loss of life and also a total needless one.

 

Turned them from a local supported club to the club of the nation and the media darlings.

 

A fact anybody with a grandad who was alive around that time might if you ask him nicely how it also made fans of other clubs start to detest United as a club.

Even better if you know people who are Bolton fans from around that time to ask them as they more than any might have some tales to tell.

Just ask them also how they think United managed to get Law back from Italy might jog there memory also.

[Tony Moanero]

 

Tony Manero has already readily conceded that they would have won the European Cup and he's certainly not the only one !

 

 

I think not.

 

"would United have won the European Cup sooner that 1968"

[kalasoma]

May they rest in peace.

[coachpotato]

There's no doubt that Busby was building a squad of, at the time, very talented young players with the potential to have won the European Cup.

But we know what potential is more than most, it's unproven success or failure and that's what the Busby babes were as far as Europe was concerned.

I really can't recall when the "Munich" shite started but, yes, we sang it as much as any other supporters did, I can recall it being sung on the Kop during the times when Robson was their captain, not that it makes any difference now.

The whole hatred bit has gone on too long and it has suited united more than us (if suited is the right word) because they've rarely been criticised in the media for the filth they sing about us at their games (jesus, even their players sing it and get away scot free!) but as has been said, it has to stop somewhere and with someone taking the first step.

Should we take the lead? I really don't know, we could try, it might fail, but I feel there's been a sea change in some attitudes towards us in the last 6 months or so, following on from the Suarez stuff, and to be cynical, maybe we should try and take advantage of that by offering the olive branch in full view of the media.

Not easy.

[s(k)aturation]

I firmly believe the Munich disaster helped make Man United what it is today. It helped define the club, and garnered a whole wave of fans across the world - which they reap the benefits of today. They won the hearts of countless millions.

 

No question.

 

In terms of fanbase, it propelled them into the global arena at least 20 years before anyone else. It's was a huge advantage that is there for all to see today.

 

Out of tragedy came something good for them. Fair enough.

 

A shame some of their fans subsequently haven't appreciated that fact graciously and with dignity in their treatment of other teams. But that's another issue, not for here.

 

Respect to the memories of the '58 men.

[s(k)aturation]

There's no doubt that Busby was building a squad of, at the time, very talented young players with the potential to have won the European Cup.

But we know what potential is more than most, it's unproven success or failure and that's what the Busby babes were as far as Europe was concerned.

I really can't recall when the "Munich" shite started but, yes, we sang it as much as any other supporters did, I can recall it being sung on the Kop during the times when Robson was their captain, not that it makes any difference now.

The whole hatred bit has gone on too long and it has suited united more than us (if suited is the right word) because they've rarely been criticised in the media for the filth they sing about us at their games (jesus, even their players sing it and get away scot free!) but as has been said, it has to stop somewhere and with someone taking the first step.

Should we take the lead? I really don't know, we could try, it might fail, but I feel there's been a sea change in some attitudes towards us in the last 6 months or so, following on from the Suarez stuff, and to be cynical, maybe we should try and take advantage of that by offering the olive branch in full view of the media.

Not easy.

 

It would involve systematically and laboriously weeding out and banning a bunch of our "supporters", wouldn't it? Hundreds, a thousand or so?

 

I haven't been to the ground for over 20 years, alas, so I've no idea how many and how hard it would be... ???

[Magic Sponge]

There's no doubt that Busby was building a squad of, at the time, very talented young players with the potential to have won the European Cup.

But we know what potential is more than most, it's unproven success or failure and that's what the Busby babes were as far as Europe was concerned.

I really can't recall when the "Munich" shite started but, yes, we sang it as much as any other supporters did, I can recall it being sung on the Kop during the times when Robson was their captain, not that it makes any difference now.

The whole hatred bit has gone on too long and it has suited united more than us (if suited is the right word) because they've rarely been criticised in the media for the filth they sing about us at their games (jesus, even their players sing it and get away scot free!) but as has been said, it has to stop somewhere and with someone taking the first step.

Should we take the lead? I really don't know, we could try, it might fail, but I feel there's been a sea change in some attitudes towards us in the last 6 months or so, following on from the Suarez stuff, and to be cynical, maybe we should try and take advantage of that by offering the olive branch in full view of the media.

Not easy.

 

Thousands of their supporters sang " the s*n was right, you're murderers" during the last game against us. Coming after recent high profile media coverage of the tragedy, that to me sums up their mentality.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

Thousands of their supporters sang " the s*n was right, you're murderers" during the last game against us. Coming after recent high profile media coverage of the tragedy, that to me sums up their mentality.

This pisses me off so fucking much about there fans and the murderers chant over hysel.

There a bunch of clueless fukwits who have no idea about there own history,because if they did that chant would never of been heard.

 

There fans killed two pensioners in 79 or 80 as they were leaving Ayesome park when a brick pillar crumbled, bringing two gates down with it.

The pensioners were crushed to death under the debris.

 

The reason for the pillar and the gates coming down was caused by United fans rushing the gates to get out the ground.

There exscuse for all rushing the gates was they were trying to get out because of a over excited police horse.

[boots123]

you are never going to win over idiots with logic and common sense, being mean and nasty is what makes them tick, goes back to their upbringing, professional counselling is the only treatment that would cure this malady.

[Juan Galonso]

Nice to see a thread that was meant to be respectful in remembering innocent people who were killed descending into the usual tit for tat bollocks. This really wasn't the thread for it.

[Magic Sponge]

The disaster doesn't need this thread in order to be remembered John.

 

It's all a bit of faux outrage.

[s(k)aturation]

The disaster doesn't need this thread in order to be remembered John.

 

It's all a bit of faux outrage.

 

Indeed, I don't think anyone's been disrespectful about 1958 on this thread.

 

No outrage necessary, unless seeking attention.

[Juan Galonso]

Nobody has been directly disrespectful but the thread was supposed to be about respecting the people who died not going down a totally different route as it seemed to be. But that really isn't surprising anymore is it? We will no doubt have our tit for tat threads in the aftermath of the Liverpool v United games as normal. Someone started a thread for the sole reason of respecting and remembering the 23 who died. It didn't take too long for the emphasis to change on that.

[Guest San Don]

Nice to see a thread that was meant to be respectful in remembering innocent people who were killed descending into the usual tit for tat bollocks. This really wasn't the thread for it.

 

Top post.

[Magic Sponge]

Nobody has been directly disrespectful but the thread was supposed to be about respecting the people who died not going down a totally different route as it seemed to be. But that really isn't surprising anymore is it? We will no doubt have our tit for tat threads in the aftermath of the Liverpool v United games as normal. Someone started a thread for the sole reason of respecting and remembering the 23 who died. It didn't take too long for the emphasis to change on that.

 

I'm sure everybody on the forum is respectful towards all those involved in the tragedy regardless if they post in this thread or not. That's not really changing the emphasis, is it.

 

Unfortunately this topic not only draws comparisons with Hillsborough but also both sets of supporters actions, views and chants towards both tragedies.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

Nobody could ever know what would have become of the Busby Babes as a collective or individually.

 

We have heard how Owen, Gerrard, Rooney, Hoddle, Gascoigne and were destined for the very top, whilst they were all fantastic players (some more than others), none of them became the next Maradona or Messi.

 

It doesn't matter if Bobby Charlton thinks someone would have been....

 

We'll never know. And it doesn't really matter.

 

 

 

A tragedy is a tragedy, regardless of which club, or fan base, and anybody with any semblance of sensibility or sensitivity will empathise at the pain suffered and never choose to mock such subjects (sadly more than a few morons do).

 

I firmly believe the Munich disaster helped make Man United what it is today. It helped define the club, and garnered a whole wave of fans across the world - which they reap the benefits of today. They won the hearts of countless millions.

 

I welcome any move between any two sets of fans to put aside the cruel and shameful mocking of tragedies. If it helps to steer rivalry back to the pitch and not the terraces, all the better in my book.

 

So out of interest and first I have to say I agree with what you say About Munich helping make United what it is today.

 

As a city fan do you think Munich was the major factor in United signing Dennis Law.

 

I appologise if I have just caused you to injure yourself with a sharp object.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

I'm sure everybody on the forum is respectful towards all those involved in the tragedy regardless if they post in this thread or not. That's not really changing the emphasis, is it.

 

Unfortunately this topic not only draws comparisons with Hillsborough but also both sets of supporters actions, views and chants towards both tragedies.

It is hard biting your tongue sometimes and I am glad it wasnt me who said what you just have so eloquently.

For I am certain that once my rage had gone enough to allow me to of said something it would not of been as well written as yours mate.

[FanchesterCity]

So out of interest and first I have to say I agree with what you say About Munich helping make United what it is today.

 

As a city fan do you think Munich was the major factor in United signing Dennis Law.

 

I appologise if I have just caused you to injure yourself with a sharp object.

 

I honestly have no idea. Denis Law was at City twice (having worked under Bill Shankly at Huddersfield). I think the lure of Italian money was a big factor in him heading to Italy, but being involved in a pretty bad car crash (I think a mate was killed in it), he probably wanted to come home from Italy anyway, and he would have known lots of players in the North West. United were (arguably) very attractive if you like the 'from the ashes' imagery.

 

I don't know if Munich would be a factor in signing him especially. Munich had happened a few years prior, and I guess they were still rebuilding and needed quality players.

 

I don't see anything ulterior in the City --> Torino --> United transition. I wasn't born then though, so it's very hard to give an accurate opinion.

 

As an interesting aside, people often forget than Sir Matt Busby was a long time City and Liverpool player.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

I honestly have no idea. Denis Law was at City twice (having worked under Bill Shankly at Huddersfield). I think the lure of Italian money was a big factor in him heading to Italy, but being involved in a pretty bad car crash (I think a mate was killed in it), he probably wanted to come home from Italy anyway, and he would have known lots of players in the North West. United were (arguably) very attractive if you like the 'from the ashes' imagery.

 

I don't know if Munich would be a factor in signing him especially. Munich had happened a few years prior, and I guess they were still rebuilding and needed quality players.

 

I don't see anything ulterior in the City --> Torino --> United transition. I wasn't born then though, so it's very hard to give an accurate opinion.

 

As an interesting aside, people often forget than Sir Matt Busby was a long time City and Liverpool player.

So you know nothing about them playing at Maine road for a few seasons and when there stadium was fixed they had no money for floodlights etc.

Its ok I thought you would of known where I was going with this.

[s(k)aturation]

I'm sure everybody on the forum is respectful towards all those involved in the tragedy regardless if they post in this thread or not. That's not really changing the emphasis, is it.

 

Unfortunately this topic not only draws comparisons with Hillsborough but also both sets of supporters actions, views and chants towards both tragedies.

 

Exactly.

Innocent people killed in both, players on the one hand, supporters on the other. There will be comparisons.

If anything, these tragedies could have made the clubs kindred spirits at least in perpetual grief and remembrance, but sadly they haven't because of a minority of idiots on both sides.

When you have a thread called "Munich" it is going to generate related discussion isn't it?

Otherwise, you're going to have an OP and half-a-dozen replies saying RIP and that's that, which is fine too.

But if it turns into respectful, reasoned and measured discussion around the outcome and repercussions of tragedy, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Better that, than the all-too-frequent "you're a cunt... no, you're a cunt" stuff that goes on here.

[RedRazor]

You with that post are perpetuating your own lazy myth by being so dismissive. It does a dis-service to one of the greatest football managers ever for a start. Considering what he did only a decade after Munich I would say the chances of that group of players achieving greatness would have been more possible than not. Who knows what they would have achieved? I would argue that they would have achieved quite a lot to be honest but that's not the issue really I suppose.

 

I'm not really bothered either way what they may or may not have achieved but I care deeply about the human element to the tragedy seeing men at the prime or to reach their prime of their ability in any walk of life cut short is really sad but even more so when it's the game we love and talk about on a daily basis.

 

My Grandad when he was alive spoke in respectful tones about their ability and how good Duncan Edwards was. He knew a thing or two about football in the 50s and 60s.

 

Top post - very touching. I also heard people talk about Duncan Edwards who had seen him play and the thing that stands out is the word "powerful". He seems to have been a physically awesome player in an age when the physical aspects of the game were a lot more important that they are today. There is so little footage of him in existence that it is difficult to form an opinion of how good he was but anyone who captained England aged 21 must have been very special.

 

As for the Utd team they may have gone on and won the European Cup but there was a certain Spanish club who may have had something to say about that. Following them came Eusebio's Benfica then the "great" Italian sides of the early and mid sixties, so who knows what would have happened. Maybe they would have, maybe not. But as you state that is of little relevance.

[coachpotato]

Aye, I have a family friend who is in his 80's now, used to play pro football decades ago (50's) for some of our lower league teams, he still gets a bit wistful and watery eyed when Edwards name is mentioned, he swears that he was the best all round player he'd ever seen and he's seen a few.

There's no doubt that the "Babes" tragedy was exactly that, as was eloquently put earlier, life cut short, young or old, is sad and should go beyond mere sporting rivalry.

[boots123]

Aye, I have a family friend who is in his 80's now, used to play pro football decades ago (50's) for some of our lower league teams, he still gets a bit wistful and watery eyed when Edwards name is mentioned, he swears that he was the best all round player he'd ever seen and he's seen a few.

There's no doubt that the "Babes" tragedy was exactly that, as was eloquently put earlier, life cut short, young or old, is sad and should go beyond mere sporting rivalry.

 

As a young man in those days and a fervent liverpool fan, utd were my second favourite team, pool were in the old 2nd div. and I was in awe of utd, particularly duncan edwards and tommy taylor, I wanted them to win the euro. cup and the F.A. cup in that year,I dont feel quite the same these days, in fact iv'e done a u turn.