If you've got kids, emigrate - now

[Anubis]

I would leave the 16 year old to make their own choice, but on the proviso that there would be no state benefit available to them. If they are not sufficiently skilled to find a job, they are thus incentivised to become sufficiently skilled, since they have no income stream.

As I understand it 16 year olds are not entitled to benefit at the moment. I think higher education should be made as accessable as possible for all, regardless of class or income, but that it should be for the individual to choose to take advantage of it. More resources should be made available for teachers to encourage people into higher education, and I think Paul makes very good points about teachers being more strongly organised.

 

As for criminalising the young, we are now in a situation were about half, or just over half, of young people will have a criminal record by the age of 17. To stigmatise people before thay have even committed an offence is reprehensible, but all too typical of the way this government is media-driven in it's policy making. I'm a liberal, but even I've come to think that there should be some sort of licencing for people to be parents. I think the government would be better concentrating it's efforts to ensure responsible parenthood rather than testing babies or children. After all, didn't our grandparents fight a war to put the breaks on this sort of thing.

[Redexile]

To steer the thread back on track, I think the idea of forcing people into education until they are 18 is a side issue. The above part of the passage that Joe started the thread with is the bit that frightens me. How can the criminalisation of the young be acceptable? I'd also like to refer people to the report I gave the link for earlier in the thread to the International Campaing Against Mass Surveillance. ICAMS is a group that has the support of 181 groups, including Liberty. The article is quite large and I am still in the process of reading it myself http://www.i-cams.org/ICAMS1.pdf

 

Dirk,

as an aside what is the issue with surveillance and id cards in the UK? We have had huge problems with crime in our city centres and the introduction of camera's , sponsored by the business community, has pulled down the rate by as much as 60%. I've always carried ID since living here and found it no problem. In fact often it has helped.

[Dirk]

The apathy explanation only partly accounts for the problem because of the circularity of it. For instance, why are individuals apathetic in the first place? The problem of the curtailment of civil liberty is caused by a confluence of factors such as political climate, political will, the need for a government to maintain its position of power, the role of media, the role of business corportations and the need for economic supremacy and or stability, and finally the political apathy of the average man. If you examine the causes you will see that it is a complex issue that needs attacking from all sides in order for it to be eradicated. Sticking kids in boot camps isn't going to prevent governments from eroding your civil liberties.

[Dirk]

Dirk,

as an aside what is the issue with surveillance and id cards in the UK? We have had huge problems with crime in our city centres and the introduction of camera's , sponsored by the business community, has pulled down the rate by as much as 60%. I've always carried ID since living here and found it no problem. In fact often it has helped.

 

See the link I posted earlier in the thread for a thorough elaboration of the points. For a further discussion on id cards Google no2id. It's not the id card that is the problem, per se, it's the biometric database.

[Cath]

See the link I posted earlier in the thread for a thorough elaboration of the points. For a further discussion on id cards Google no2id. It's not the id card that is the problem, per se, it's the biometric database.

 

Did you see this Dirk?

[RSM]

This government sucks ass! Unfortunatley there is no real alternative. The faces change the politics remain the same.

[redrosetints]

Mad indeed. Nobody seems to want (or would be allowed to do) the job.

 

The army wouldn't want it either.

 

Until it becomes a political winner. Which I dont think will be too long. Its a thin line (And spin in the press) between tough love and being a nanny state though isnt it !

[Dirk]

Did you see this Dirk?

 

Nah, I didn't but it doesn't surprise me. Self-interest is, in general, the root of all human motivation.

[redrosetints]

The apathy explanation only partly accounts for the problem because of the cirularity of it. For instance, why are individuals apathetic in the first place? The problem of the curtailment of civil liberty is caused by a confluence of factors such as political climate, political will, the need for a government to maintain its position of power, the role of media, the role of business corportations and the need for economic supremacy and or stability, and finally the political apathy of the average man. If you examine the causes you will see that it is a complex issue that needs attacking from all sides in order for it to be eradicated. Sticking kids in boot camps isn't going to prevent governments from eroding your civil liberties.

 

But is asking kids to go to school to they are 18 a curtailment of their civil liberties ? What sort of society do we live in when we feel that demanding childeren are educated is an erosion of civil liberties ? Education is the key to everything.

 

And why is Apathy caused by erosions of civil liberties ? Apathy is caused by lack of urgency, desire, hunger if you like. And that is as a result of being a prosperous nation, where relativley we all live quite comfortably. How many people in your uni/workplace do you know who push themselves to the limit and strive to be the best they can be ? How many people turn up for work or school and simply preform the bare minimum to get by and get paid ?

 

So you're right, Apathy is complex and deep rooted, and yes governments can play a part in it, but human desire to innovate and change is self driven and as a society is cyclical as you mention.

 

When people decide they want to reclaim politics, people will. When people decide they want to be involved they will. World wars, extreme econmic conditions etc are the catalyst for those cylces to change.

 

AS for the civil liberties stuff, well that too is cyclical. Those in law now were bourne out of need at a certain time. Now its possible that as a society we have leant too far the other way and that we need to enforce a more strict code on people to ensure the balance if maintained between the need of the individual and the need of society.

 

The cycle continues.

[Dirk]

All children could face compulsory checks to discover if they are at risk of turning into criminals, the Prime Minister has announced.

 

The controversial proposal came as part of a wide-ranging review of crime and security policy published by 10 Downing Street.

 

It said the checks could take place at existing important stages in a child's life, such as the move from primary to secondary school.

 

The Government's plan to prevent crime said: "Establish universal checks throughout a child's development to help service providers to identify those most at risk of offending.

 

"These checks should piggyback on existing contact points such as the transition to secondary schools."

 

The document did not outline at what age the checks should begin, nor did it detail whether police or probation officers would be involved in the process.

 

 

Gaz, you're missing the point mate, the thread went off on a tangent, read the link at the beginning of the thread where they mention performing criminal checks on children. Apathy isn't eroding our civil liberties, governments are. I keep saying this but people should read the report I posted. Once your civil liberties have been eroded so far we'll no longer have a voice to reclaim politics. It's a complex problem, people should read up on it, don't let me tell you how it is, make your own decision after reading the evidence. The place to begin is to start understanding the ideology of the major western governments which are proposing these measures. Judging from your tone, I'm not sure you are aware of what is happening around the world in relation to the curtailment of civil liberties.

[tokyojoe]

[/url]

See the link I posted earlier in the thread for a thorough elaboration of the points. For a further discussion on id cards Google no2id. It's not the id card that is the problem, per se, it's the biometric database.

 

Great thing is it won't be compulsory though.

 

ID Refusniks To Be Prisoners In Their Own Country

 

Winnle, wibble, fucking wibble......

[Anubis]

[/url]

 

Great thing is it won't be compulsory though.

 

ID Refusniks To Be Prisoners In Their Own Country

 

Winnle, wibble, fucking wibble......

 

My passport runs out in 2011. Can I renew it now to avoid this? Anyone know?

[redrosetints]

Gaz, you're missing the point mate, the thread went off on a tangent, read the link at the beginning of the thread where they mention performing criminal checks on children. Apathy isn't eroding our civil liberties, governments are. I keep saying this but people should read the report I posted. Once your civil liberties have been eroded so far we'll no longer have a voice to reclaim politics. It's a complex problem, people should read up on it, don't let me tell you how it is, make your own decision after reading the evidence. The place to begin is to start understanding the ideology of the major western governments which are proposing these measures. Judging from your tone, I'm not sure you are aware of what is happening around the world in relation to the curtailment of civil liberties.

 

Yeah, you're right some of the discussion may be blurred here, but I think the Civil liberties issues rasied are red herrings with regard to teh Guardian articel and teh Beeb article SD posted. And IMHO, neither are cases of civil liberty infringement. Both are proposals to prolong a childs stay in education and both are reported with their own spin.

 

The thread started with a guardian article suggesting kids MAY be criminally checked, the article even goes on to say it doesnt know if the police or probabtion services would be invovled. In Gaz Spin it could be, 'Schools will be asked to monitor those from disadvantaged backgrounds, in areas where social problems are common.' Same shite, different way of saying it.

 

WRT to my tone, given the context of the world around us and some of our current ills the ebb and flow of politics and policing in particular is at a point where it needs to be tighter, to protect the liberty of the masses rather than the individual. I realise there may be occasions when this will lead to innocences falling foul of the law's but there are always winners and losers in this kind of thing. At some stage it will become too far the other way and people will become involved again, politicised to make a change and suddenly the apathy of today will be swept aside as poeple want to take control of their lives back. Its human nature and life.

[Elmyn Noos]

With regard to the education issue - 16 year olds are not old enough to decide what is best for them. Only someone not old enough to see that would even suggest it. As for what they want - who gives a fuck what they want? Giving kids what they want "as long as they're happy" is the root of many of the problems we face in society today. Work out what's best for them, then make them do it. There'll always be some scumbags that are determined to slip through the net, then blame the net for not being tight enough. Fuck em. The world needs scum, as not being scum is relative.

 

On the issue of civil liberties, it's a matter of trust. If you believe that what is being done is being done with the best of intentions, and will not be abused, I think most reasonable people would go along with it. The problem we face is that many people do not trust our elected leaders. Sometimes they are right not to, but sometimes they are the same people that think Michaela Strachan is striving for world domination through a series of supposed well-meaning and informative nature programmes.

 

I think on the whole this country is pretty good, and I tire of people knocking it. It's not perfect, but it's easy to be a critic. It's harder to suggest workable popular alternatives, because there'll always be critics.

 

On a separate note, bring back national service. That'll sort the young fellows out. You could decide where to post them on their first tour of duty on their exam grades. Good grades get you a cosy little stint eating cucumber butties with Prince William at Sandhurst, a HND, BTEC or some other such hairdressing certificate gets you a seat on the next boat not to sail into iranian waters.

[tokyojoe]

My passport runs out in 2011. Can I renew it now to avoid this? Anyone know?

 

No, the've fucking rigged it mate. No renewals more than nine months prior to expiry date.

[Strontium]

This government sucks ass! Unfortunatley there is no real alternative. The faces change the politics remain the same.

Quite clearly not remotely true. Anyone who thinks this doesn't understand politics.

[redrosetints]

Quite clearly not remotely true. Anyone who thinks this doesn't understand politics.

 

Yes and no SD ?

 

Yes, politics has changed enourmously over the past 20 years, no, as everyone has now decided to straddle the middle, so policies are variations on a theme. There s little true alternative, apart from your good selves not agreeing to the war.

[Elmyn Noos]

What's the alternative SD..?

 

I'm thinking of heading up a new political party called Not Bothered.

 

That way, when the ballot sheets come out, Not Bothered will get the apathy vote, and I shall sweep to power. The glorious thing about that, is that the majority who voted me in won't be that bothered what I do. Johnny Foreigner and those dirty little pikes on the council estates had better watch out when that day comes.

[Carradona]

Noos is back.

[Paul]

With regard to the education issue - 16 year olds are not old enough to decide what is best for them. Only someone not old enough to see that would even suggest it. As for what they want - who gives a fuck what they want? Giving kids what they want "as long as they're happy" is the root of many of the problems we face in society today. Work out what's best for them, then make them do it. There'll always be some scumbags that are determined to slip through the net, then blame the net for not being tight enough. Fuck em. The world needs scum, as not being scum is relative.

 

There's an element of truth in all of that, but especially the bit highlighted.

[7dalglish]

I don't see what the problem is, a 16yr old is not an adult and what's wrong with providing education for them to the age of 18? Civil liberties? what a fucking joke.

 

The people who say UK is going down the shitter and we should emmigrate probably haven't ever lived outside the UK so don't really have a comparison. I know this, if I was out of work I wouldn't want to be living in USA. 48 million people here do not have any sort of health care, not far off the population of the entire UK.

[Strontium]

How unbelievably arrogant it is for government to suggest that it knows what is best for people.

 

Whatever happened to letting young adults make their own decisions and their own mistakes?

 

Government is there to advise and support its citizens in the choices they make; it is not there to make those choices for them.

 

Personal freedom. There needs to be more of this, not less. Nobody has a god-given right to tell another person what they can and cannot do. Once a person becomes 16, their life is their own to do with as they please, so long as they don't harm other people.

 

Please god we'll get rid of these Stalinists at the next election; the Tories might be a bunch of twats, but at least we could perhaps trust them to not enslave us in some Orwellian authoritarian nightmare.

[Strontium]

I don't see what the problem is

You wouldn't, living in Police State USA ;)

 

a 16yr old is not an adult

In Britain and most of the civilised world, yes they are.

 

and what's wrong with providing education for them to the age of 18?

Nothing wrong with providing education for those who want to do it; forcing someone into it under the threat of a criminal record is where the problem lies.

 

Civil liberties? what a fucking joke.

Our civil liberties certainly are becoming a joke. But worse still are the apologists for the ones who want to remove our liberties. It's as if these people actually want to be slaves to faceless autocrats.

[7dalglish]

sd, I was born and raised in Liverpool, came over here when I was 26 so I do think I have an idea about how things work in UK. What do you mean by Police state? I feel as free here as I did in UK.

 

If 16 is the age of an adult why can't 16yr olds vote and buy alcohol? I don't think they can get a bank loan either until the age of 18, maybe because they're deemed not responsible at that age?

 

Civilised world? Ha talking to me like I'm an American and you're the condescending Englishman, funny that.

[Strontium]

What do you mean by Police state? I feel as free here as I did in UK.

Well, when I lived in Oregon, I didn't feel as free, and this is ten years ago, when Clinton was the Prez. I can only imagine things are worse now Bush is in the White House.

 

If 16 is the age of an adult why can't 16yr olds vote and buy alcohol?

Votes for 16 year olds is coming in this country very soon. Also, if you are 16, you can buy alcohol with a meal.

 

Civilised world? Ha talking to me like I'm an American and you're the condescending Englishman, funny that.

I wasn't being condescending, this is just my peculiar variety of humour. You either feel it or you don't, but please don't let it do you any lasting damage.