Israel - A Rant

[Rico1304]

7 minutes ago, Red74 said:

You're always going on about Benjamin Netanyahu. Let it go Rico, you're never going to meet him.      

I have no idea what you are talking about 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

I have no idea what you are talking about 

That's saaaaad! 

[Skidfingers McGonical]

3 hours ago, ZonkoVille77 said:

 

It’s what I’d do on GTA V Online. 

[SasaS]

3 hours ago, scottthecanuck said:

I feel nothing but disgust for Israel, its's government and it's citizens who are either indifferent to or active participants in what is now an obvious case of ethnic cleansing. They have now sunk to the level of the Serbs of '90s.

Is that lower than the Germans in 1933?

 

3 hours ago, scottthecanuck said:

I guess where I disagree is that unlike the 70's/80's there is no credible peace movement in Israel. I know that not all citizens hold these repellent views but where are the protests against the government policies? Where is the anti-war movement? Where is the liberal opposition to the Nation State law? 

 

Many of the people you mention may be decent at heart but eventually if you do nothing to protest, or don't speak out you become a passive accomplice to the crime. The State of Israel has become increasingly racist, opressive, and militant over the years. Yet it's Jewish population does not suffer under a dictatorship. Presumably they have the freedom to stand up and say "not in our name", yet they don't. 

 

I think Netanyahu and his ilk are a Colonel Jessup for a good many Israeli citizens who say the right things but ultimately do nothing to stop what is happening. There may come a day in the future when they begin to realize the cost once the Religious radicals become powerful enough to start turning their attention to Israeli citizens who are deemed to be insufficiently devout or observant. Something that I think is entirely inevitable.  

It is difficult to have a significant peace movement that would have any traction in society if your adversary is Hamas, funded by Iran, and in recent years by Qatar and Saudi Arabia. As long as Hamas is there, Netanyahu and the hawks are safe. They feed off each other. perfectly.

[TheHowieLama]

The building where Al Jazeera and Associated Press had offices has been flattened.

[Ranxerox]

14 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

 

It is difficult to have a significant peace movement that would have any traction in society if your adversary is Hamas, funded by Iran, and in recent years by Qatar and Saudi Arabia. As long as Hamas is there, Netanyahu and the hawks are safe. They feed off each other. perfectly.

Things like the "Nation-State Law", the normalizing of illegal settlements and a de facto policy of ethnic cleansing are the responsibility of the Government of Israel which has been elected by the citizens of Israel, they alone are responsible. 

[Bjornebye]

The "carpet bomb them" guy seems really rational.... 

 

 

 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

16 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

The building where Al Jazeera and Associated Press had offices has been flattened.

If there's no press there then they can't report on the child murdering... 

 

 

[Strontium]

13 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

The building where Al Jazeera and Associated Press had offices has been flattened.

 

There were a few interesting articles by a former Associated Press reporter about how AP and the rest of the media frame the conflict, written a few years ago but still painfully relevant.

 

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/

 

 

[SasaS]

1 minute ago, scottthecanuck said:

Things like the "Nation-State Law", the normalizing of illegal settlements and a de facto policy of ethnic cleansing are the responsibility of the Government of Israel which has been elected by the citizens of Israel alone. 

Movement of Israeli electorate to the right and hardening of attitudes was a process largely in line with emergence and rise of more radical factions and options on the other side.

 

For Israeli Jews and most Jewish people in the world, preservation of Israel as a Jewish national state is an absolute priority, I would say. As long is there is a threat, most responses will largely be tolerated. In realpolitik, Israel is here to stay, as a Jewish nation state. People thinking there would be some revolution such as the end of apartheid as in South Africa that would turn Israel into one state (possibly called Palestine) where Jews would be a minority are simply prolonging the agony of Palestinian refugees and preventing the full emancipation of Israeli Arabs.

 

The only other solution Palestinians may hope for, that they would become such a military force that Israel would be force into huge concessions or face annihilation does not look it is happening any time soon.

[Bjornebye]

As Billy Connolly once said in a joke about Old Firm fans "Football violence will never end, not as long as they keep shitting in our shoes, and we keep pissing in their bovril" 

 

 

[Ranxerox]

1 minute ago, SasaS said:

People thinking there would be some revolution such as the end of apartheid as in South Africa that would turn Israel into one state (possibly called Palestine) where Jews would be a minority are simply prolonging the agony of Palestinian refugees and preventing the full emancipation of Israeli Arabs.

The wider international community and the UN resolutions have never called for this. Instead they specify a two-state solution which Israel has only recently abandoned in favor of Jewish supremacism. If this is the position of the people of Israel so be it. However I think if more people in the west realized that Israel now wants nothing less than ethnic cleansing and a racially pure homeland many would changer their opinion about the morality of continued western aid to help them achieve these ends. 

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, scottthecanuck said:

if more people in the west realized that Israel now wants nothing less than ethnic cleansing and a racially pure homeland

 

I don't know that many Israelis, but I have to confess, I've not heard any of them say that that's what they want.

[Ranxerox]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

I don't know that many Israelis, but I have to confess, I've not heard any of them say that that's what they want.

I guess you're not aware of nation-state law, the many pronouncements of the Netanyahu government regarding the end of the two-state solution...all met with acceptance by the wider Israeli public. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

20 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

There were a few interesting articles by a former Associated Press reporter about how AP and the rest of the media frame the conflict, written a few years ago but still painfully relevant.

 

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/

 

 

"Why won't they say nice things about us regularly blowing up buildings and infrastructure in the open air prison we created and about our systematic, long standing slaughter of innocent civilians and children? What is wrong with these people!" 

[Strontium]

2 minutes ago, scottthecanuck said:

I guess you're not aware of nation-state law, the many pronouncements of the Netanyahu government regarding the end of the two-state solution...all met with acceptance by the wider Israeli public. 

 

Okay, so when you say Israel, you're talking about the million or so Israelis (out of a nation of 9 million) who voted for Netanyahu. That's clearer, thanks.

[General Dryness]

2 hours ago, Red74 said:

You're always going on about Benjamin Netanyahu. Let it go Rico, you're never going to meet him.      

 

2 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

I have no idea what you are talking about 

 

[Bjornebye]

I'd find it hard to believe that more than 10% of Israelis want any sort of conflict. I'd echo that for the Palestinian people as well. 

[Ranxerox]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Okay, so when you say Israel, you're talking about the million or so Israelis (out of a nation of 9 million) who voted for Netanyahu. That's clearer, thanks.

Where is the opposition to these policies? It doesn't exist. Who besides Israeli Arabs are calling for repeal of the nation state law? 

 

You can be complicit in something by doing nothing and allowing an injustice to continue when you could act to try and stop it. 

 

At least SasaS is willing to admit the reality of the Israeli position. 

[Ranxerox]

2 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

I'd find it hard to believe that more than 10% of Israelis want any sort of conflict. I'd echo that for the Palestinian people as well. 

I agree, I just think the majority of Israeli's have concluded the Palestinians should just go away and live somewhere else. That doesn't mean they want them slaughtered but it is a fundamental change from the message of peaceful co-existence. 

[Strontium]

3 minutes ago, scottthecanuck said:

Where is the opposition to these policies? It doesn't exist. Who besides Israeli Arabs are calling for repeal of the nation state law?

 

There were a few attempts to repeal or amend it last year. Not successful - yet.

 

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/meretz-joint-list-attempt-to-repeal-nation-state-law-defeated-635177

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/amendment-to-clarify-equality-in-nation-state-law-rejected-636722

 

But you surely know this already, since you're speaking with such authority on this subject?

[Bjornebye]

4 minutes ago, scottthecanuck said:

I agree, I just think the majority of Israeli's have concluded the Palestinians should just go away and live somewhere else. That doesn't mean they want them slaughtered but it is a fundamental change from the message of peaceful co-existence. 

When given the choice between continued conflict and that then yeah probably but not for any other reason I wouldn't imagine. 

[TheHowieLama]

you're talking about the million or so Israelis (out of a nation of 9 million) who voted for Netanyahu.

 

 

Not really up to speed on the voting in Israel -- the fella got elected with a million votes out of 9 mil?

[Ranxerox]

17 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Okay, so when you say Israel, you're talking about the million or so Israelis (out of a nation of 9 million) who voted for Netanyahu. That's clearer, thanks.

Also you full well know that Netanyahu is propped up by other even more extreme partys and thus their voters precisely to put and keep these policies in place. It's bad faith debating to attempt to put forward such a facile point as above. 

 

The two state solution is DOA amongst the Israeli citizenry that much is obvious as no leader championing it could hope to form a government. Israeli's have moved on and are going down a different path. As I have said so be it, but damned if I'll vote for a government hear that supports that path.