Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Strontium]

Not necessarily. I was thinking it might have been created as a spoof but taken seriously by anti-Corbynites who didn't get the joke.

 

I see now what you mean. But still, I'm pretty sure it's not a spoof.

 

I'm still amused by the idea that it's traitorous for Labour MPs to vote against Jeremy Corbyn, but not for Jeremy Corbyn to vote, on 263 occasions, against other Labour leaders.

[Walter Sobchak]

I'm not using it as a yardstick for anything. I'm using it as an example to try to establish whether you think it's legitimate for MPs to vote with their conscience if they disagree with the party leadership.

 

If you thought the Iraq war was morally wrong, do you think that Labour MPs who also thought it morally wrong should have ignored their conscience and voted for it?

There's a lot of revisionism when it comes to Iraq so it's difficult to shift through the bull shit. Apologies if you feel i was having a pop.

 

Nothing wrong with MPs voting on conscience on issues. On such matters the Whip is often removed and a free vote occurs.

 

However Corbyn was a serial rebel, not just on the odd vote or odd issue but almost always.

 

Voting on free vote using your conscience is very very different to what Corbyn did which was the continuous obstruction to a Labour Government.

 

Regardless of who ran that Labour Government, it changed a large section of UK society infinitely for the better.

 

You only have to look at the city that most on here inhabit as proof of that.

 

Looking back now how many on here would swap what we have now in 2016 for what we had in 2001 for example?

 

Corbyn and his allies would have us believe that that Labour Government was root cause of all evil. Hence his rebellions from the back bench.

 

Which is why I find bemusing when Corbyn's allies calling for MPs to support their leader when he was quick to give his Labour Government a good kick.

 

The idea of Corbyn being a righteous man of Principle is frankly a load of bollocks, where was his principles when he went off with Tories to rebel?

 

Where was his backing for his leader then?

 

His die hard supporters don't see that though and I'm sure some on here will probably deride me as being Tory/Blairite/NeoLiberal etc etc for pointing it out.

 

At the end of day I'm fucking sick of Tories ruining this country. The only way of stopping that is a Labour Government and under Corbyn it definitely will not happen.

 

It might not happen under Smith granted but I'd daresay we'd have a better chance with than Corbyn.

 

I'm a fucking socialist and proud of it but no one is bigger than the party, even fucking Blair stood down.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dennis tooth]

Funny that its as if he is excercising his right to vote or something feel fishy like that. It's almost as if his detractors are oh I donkt knw using divide and conquer or something like that.

There's a reason his respected in the streets and that's cause he hasn't bent to neo liberalism.

[dennis tooth]

Funny that its as if he is excercising his right to vote or something feel fishy like that. It's almost as if his detractors are oh I donkt knw using divide and conquer or something like that.

There's a reason his respected in the streets and that's cause he hasn't bent to neo liberalism.

[King Emlyn]

What Corbyn did is nothing like what the PLP are doing now. He never led a movement to try to oust Blair and prevent Blairites from standing for the leadership.

As leader Corbyn has never had a problem with MPs voting against him on matters of conscience.

Just breaking balls, I think we've more than established that St Jeremy of Corbyn can do no wrong on here, trust me I was not expecting any agreement!

[dennis tooth]

There's a lot of revisionism when it comes to Iraq so it's difficult to shift through the bull shit. Apologies if you feel i was having a pop.

 

Nothing wrong with MPs voting on conscience on issues. On such matters the Whip is often removed and a free vote occurs.

 

However Corbyn was a serial rebel, not just on the odd vote or odd issue but almost always.

 

Voting on free vote using your conscience is very very different to what Corbyn did which was the continuous obstruction to a Labour Government.

 

Regardless of who ran that Labour Government, it changed a large section of UK society infinitely for the better.

 

You only have to look at the city that most on here inhabit as proof of that.

 

Looking back now how many on here would swap what we have now in 2016 for what we had in 2001 for example?

 

Corbyn and his allies would have us believe that that Labour Government was root cause of all evil. Hence his rebellions from the back bench.

 

Which is why I find bemusing when Corbyn's allies calling for MPs to support their leader when he was quick to give his Labour Government a good kick.

 

The idea of Corbyn being a righteous man of Principle is frankly a load of bollocks, where was his principles when he went off with Tories to rebel?

 

Where was his backing for his leader then?

 

His die hard supporters don't see that though and I'm sure some on here will probably deride me as being Tory/Blairite/NeoLiberal etc etc for pointing it out.

 

At the end of day I'm fucking sick of Tories ruining this country. The only way of stopping that is a Labour Government and under Corbyn it definitely will not happen.

 

It might not happen under Smith granted but I'd daresay we'd have a better chance with than Corbyn.

 

I'm a fucking socialist and proud of it but no one is bigger than the party, even fucking Blair stood down.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Whatever your version of things the chap you name and ive forgotten his name already can't even beat corbyn and is a pfizer pr man who is as Tory as they come so your idea he could beat the Tories is as fanciful as you blithely use a hypocritical argument as you bashing the Labour leader for not getting behind Labour leaders.

[Walter Sobchak]

Whatever your version of things the chap you name and ive forgotten his name already can't even beat corbyn and is a pfizer pr man who is as Tory as they come so your idea he could beat the Tories is as fanciful as you blithely use a hypocritical argument as you bashing the Labour leader for not getting behind Labour leaders.

"Tory as they come?"

 

That will be why he's in the Labour Party then?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[VladimirIlyich]

Just breaking balls, I think we've more than established that St Jeremy of Corbyn can do no wrong on here, trust me I was not expecting any agreement!

What a knob of a post.

[King Emlyn]

What a knob of a post.

Cheers

[dennis tooth]

"Tory as they come?"

 

That will be why he's in the Labour Party then?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep trying to cause trouble refusing to back his leader. Ahem

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I see now what you mean. But still, I'm pretty sure it's not a spoof.

 

I'm still amused by the idea that it's traitorous for Labour MPs to vote against Jeremy Corbyn, but not for Jeremy Corbyn to vote, on 263 occasions, against other Labour leaders.

I've never heard anyone say that.

[Neil G]

I see now what you mean. But still, I'm pretty sure it's not a spoof.

 

I'm still amused by the idea that it's traitorous for Labour MPs to vote against Jeremy Corbyn, but not for Jeremy Corbyn to vote, on 263 occasions, against other Labour leaders.

 

What the PLP rebels are doing goes way beyond simply voting against Corbyn, as well you know.

[Neil G]

There's a lot of revisionism when it comes to Iraq so it's difficult to shift through the bull shit. Apologies if you feel i was having a pop.

 

Nothing wrong with MPs voting on conscience on issues. On such matters the Whip is often removed and a free vote occurs.

 

However Corbyn was a serial rebel, not just on the odd vote or odd issue but almost always.

 

Voting on free vote using your conscience is very very different to what Corbyn did which was the continuous obstruction to a Labour Government.

 

Regardless of who ran that Labour Government, it changed a large section of UK society infinitely for the better.

 

You only have to look at the city that most on here inhabit as proof of that.

 

Looking back now how many on here would swap what we have now in 2016 for what we had in 2001 for example?

 

Corbyn and his allies would have us believe that that Labour Government was root cause of all evil. Hence his rebellions from the back bench.

 

Which is why I find bemusing when Corbyn's allies calling for MPs to support their leader when he was quick to give his Labour Government a good kick.

 

The idea of Corbyn being a righteous man of Principle is frankly a load of bollocks, where was his principles when he went off with Tories to rebel?

 

Where was his backing for his leader then?

 

His die hard supporters don't see that though and I'm sure some on here will probably deride me as being Tory/Blairite/NeoLiberal etc etc for pointing it out.

 

At the end of day I'm fucking sick of Tories ruining this country. The only way of stopping that is a Labour Government and under Corbyn it definitely will not happen.

 

It might not happen under Smith granted but I'd daresay we'd have a better chance with than Corbyn.

 

I'm a fucking socialist and proud of it but no one is bigger than the party, even fucking Blair stood down.

 

If you don't have a problem in principle with MPs defying the whip if they genuinely disagree with a policy or a bill, then the frequency with which they do it doesn't come into it. Corbyn didn't rebel for the fun of it, he did it because he chose to stick to his principles at a time when the party was led by people who didn't share them. And he didn't 'almost always' rebel, he voted in support of the leadership 85 per cent of the time between 1997 and 2015.

 

A lot of people would argue that the issues he rebelled on besides Iraq - PFI, tuition fees, increasing private provision in the NHS - didn't benefit the country, so he wasn't standing in the way of a Labour government achieving progressive goals. Besides which none of those things would have been necessary if New Labour had been serious about funding public services, in other words if it had had the stones to take on the tax avoidance industry and to make the case for conventional borrowing by issuing bonds instead of the rip-off that was PFI.

 

On a more general point I acknowledge the good things that the Blair/Brown government did, but so little of them outlasted the government because the whole thing was built on sand - no sustainable restructuring of the economy, no engagement with Labour's traditional working class vote, no attempt to shift public opinion to the left on the economy or the NHS or the welfare state. I see no indication that any of Corbyn's challengers would achieve anything more lasting on that score if they became PM, so as soon as the Tories got back in they'd rip everything up and drag the country even further to the right, just as they've done this time.

 

I have lots of criticisms of Corbyn's leadership, I've been voicing them since last summer, and I didn't even vote for him first time round. I would prefer another more electable left winger in charge, and I think there's a good chance of it happening if Corbyn is re-elected. On the other hand I don't believe that anyone from the centre or the right of the party is going to genuinely reconnect with the voters that Labour needs to win back to get into power, because they haven't got the courage to challenge the Tories' narrative and present a real alternative. We'll be back to the Miliband era, with the same results.

[Neil G]

Just breaking balls, I think we've more than established that St Jeremy of Corbyn can do no wrong on here, trust me I was not expecting any agreement!

 

I don't know if you actually believe that or if you're breaking balls again, but it isn't true. The number of genuine Corbyn aficionados on here who defend him to the hilt is in single figures. Most of the rest of us who support him have serious reservations about his leadership abilities, and some of us neither expect nor particularly want him to lead the party into the next general election.

 

And most of us want a Labour win at the next election every bit as much as you do, but we don't believe that reverting to the lukewarm, risk-averse party of the last 20 years, half hearted and shit scared about challenging the Thatcherite economic consensus, will win back the millions of voters who deserted Labour under Blair, Brown and Miliband, especially the white working classes who voted for Brexit.

 

And I'm not buying into the panic about an early general election either, the ostensible reason for needing to get rid of Corbyn now. I really don't think May will call one until we're out of the EU, if at all. If she does she'll end up with a load more UKIP MPs and headbanging anti-EU Tories in the Commons, which is the last thing she'll want while the Brexit negotiations are going on. It's going to be hard enough for her dealing with the Tory membership on the EU.

[Boss]

I see now what you mean. But still, I'm pretty sure it's not a spoof.

 

I'm still amused by the idea that it's traitorous for Labour MPs to vote against Jeremy Corbyn, but not for Jeremy Corbyn to vote, on 263 occasions, against other Labour leaders.

 

It's not the same thing is it? You can defy the whip and go against the party if you believe it's the right thing to do in relation to that specific policy. It's not the same thing as staging a coup against the party. How many coups has Jeremy been apart of? Then you'd have grounds to attack him on that premise. 

[dennis tooth]

If you don't have a problem in principle with MPs defying the whip if they genuinely disagree with a policy or a bill, then the frequency with which they do it doesn't come into it. Corbyn didn't rebel for the fun of it, he did it because he chose to stick to his principles at a time when the party was led by people who didn't share them. And he didn't 'almost always' rebel, he voted in support of the leadership 85 per cent of the time between 1997 and 2015.

A lot of people would argue that the issues he rebelled on besides Iraq - PFI, tuition fees, increasing private provision in the NHS - didn't benefit the country, so he wasn't standing in the way of a Labour government achieving progressive goals. Besides which none of those things would have been necessary if New Labour had been serious about funding public services, in other words if it had had the stones to take on the tax avoidance industry and to make the case for conventional borrowing by issuing bonds instead of the rip-off that was PFI.

On a more general point I acknowledge the good things that the Blair/Brown government did, but so little of them outlasted the government because the whole thing was built on sand - no sustainable restructuring of the economy, no engagement with Labour's traditional working class vote, no attempt to shift public opinion to the left on the economy or the NHS or the welfare state. I see no indication that any of Corbyn's challengers would achieve anything more lasting on that score if they became PM, so as soon as the Tories got back in they'd rip everything up and drag the country even further to the right, just as they've done this time.

I have lots of criticisms of Corbyn's leadership, I've been voicing them since last summer, and I didn't even vote for him first time round. I would prefer another more electable left winger in charge, and I think there's a good chance of it happening if Corbyn is re-elected. On the other hand I don't believe that anyone from the centre or the right of the party is going to genuinely reconnect with the voters that Labour needs to win back to get into power, because they haven't got the courage to challenge the Tories' narrative and present a real alternative. We'll be back to the Miliband era, with the same results.

Don't agree with all of it but that's a top post.

[sir roger]

I like the way the first post starts ' Simple Question ' and 3000 posts later we are heading into KFC territory.

[VladimirIlyich]

I don't know if you actually believe that or if you're breaking balls again, but it isn't true. The number of genuine Corbyn aficionados on here who defend him to the hilt is in single figures. Most of the rest of us who support him have serious reservations about his leadership abilities, and some of us neither expect nor particularly want him to lead the party into the next general election.

And most of us want a Labour win at the next election every bit as much as you do, but we don't believe that reverting to the lukewarm, risk-averse party of the last 20 years, half hearted and shit scared about challenging the Thatcherite economic consensus, will win back the millions of voters who deserted Labour under Blair, Brown and Miliband, especially the white working classes who voted for Brexit.

And I'm not buying into the panic about an early general election either, the ostensible reason for needing to get rid of Corbyn now. I really don't think May will call one until we're out of the EU, if at all. If she does she'll end up with a load more UKIP MPs and headbanging anti-EU Tories in the Commons, which is the last thing she'll want while the Brexit negotiations are going on. It's going to be hard enough for her dealing with the Tory membership on the EU.

Put much more eloquently than I ever could have. Great post mate.

[Denny Crane]

 

Will we see a staggered unresignation from some MPs?

 

Sarah Champion has unresigned and been reinstated as a Shadow Home Office Minister.

 

Ms Champion, who was one of dozens of Labour frontbenchers who quit in protest at Jeremy Corbyn 's leadership last month, formally retracted her resignation in an email this afternoon.

 

It reads: "I would like to formally retract my resignation and ask to be reinstated to my role as Shadow Home Office minister for preventing abuse and domestic violence with immediate effect."

 

A spokesperson for Jeremy Corbyn confirmed her retraction had been accepted and she had been reinstated.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sarah-champion-unresigns-labour-shadow-8490897

[sir roger]

What is the background on this Iain McNichol guy, the Chairman of the NEC. He's at it again talking about stopping members having the vote & putting in provisional bans on anybody if a complaint is received against them from any party member.This guy seems to think his remit is to avoid a Corbyn victory at all costs, being the guy that allegedly hid the positive solicitors advice re Corbyn getting on the election list , until threatened with personal legal action the day before the NEC vote on it.

 

Once again one of these complaints is shown up to be overblown , if not an outright lie, by a letter in the Echo tonight from the Chair of the Wallasey CLP who said they have been suspended because of supposed anti-Eagle intimidation at their latest meeting as a result of her stance against Corbyn, when he pointed out that the meeting was a very quiet one & was actually held on the 24th of June, when Eagle was still in the Shadow Cabinet.

[Gnasher]

One of the most important political organisations in britain has come out in favour of Jeremy Corbyn today, though you won't here about it on mainstream news.

 

Approximately 6 million people in Britain carry a disability, not to mention the carers who look after them.

 

 

Take a look at @Dis_PPL_Protest's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Dis_PPL_Protest/status/757645690004791301?s=09

[Gnasher]

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/25/one-powerful-political-groups-britain-just-came-back-jeremy-corbyn/

[sir roger]

Legal challenge being launched by solicitors against the NEC decision to cut votes for the apres January 12th joining members, crowd funded by disenfranchised members. ( I am not tech savvy - It is a Guardian article if anybody can post it )

 

The challenge to Corbyn's entry on the ballot paper by the Labour contributor is also still on the go.

 

Might be easier to hold future NEC meetings at the Old Bailey & cut out the middle men.

[Jairzinho]

One of the most important political organisations in britain has come out in favour of Jeremy Corbyn today, though you won't here about it on mainstream news.

 

Approximately 6 million people in Britain carry a disability, not to mention the carers who look after them.

 

 

Take a look at @Dis_PPL_Protest's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Dis_PPL_Protest/status/757645690004791301?s=09

 

This is "left wing" Guardian's take on it. They managed to find the one disabled person in the country that would rather the Labour party was led by an ex big pharma lobbyist that abstained on the welfare bill.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/25/why-corbyn-support-for-disabled-people-not-enough#comments

[AngryOfTuebrook]

What if the Hokey Cokey really is what it's all about?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36886157

 

An MP who quit Labour's front bench during a revolt against Jeremy Corbyn has been reinstated after asking for her old job back.

 

Sarah Champion, the MP for Rotherham, has retracted her resignation as shadow minister for preventing child abuse and domestic violence.

Ms Champion is on an overseas trip but her office confirmed that she had "retaken" her old job.

 

The BBC's Norman Smith said it was an "extraordinary development".

 

Ms Champion has not given any reason for wishing to return to Mr Corbyn's team shadowing the Home Office.

When she resigned from the front bench last month, Ms Champion insisted she was not taking part in an organised coup or "siding with anyone" but she believed that his leadership had become untenable.

 

The BBC's assistant political editor said Mr Corbyn's advisers were "overjoyed" and said it raised the prospect of whether the MP was a one-off or whether others who had walked out of the Labour leader's top team were now having second thoughts.

A source close to the Labour leader responded by saying: "You saw what happened when the first miners went back to work so let's see what happens."

 

Mr Corbyn is facing a leadership challenge from former work and pensions spokesman Owen Smith, having suffered a mass walkout from the shadow cabinet and lost a vote of confidence among his MPs by a massive margin.

 

Although Mr Corbyn filled the gaps in the shadow cabinet by appointing replacements, several politicians have had to double up by taking on two portfolios while many middle-ranking and junior positions remain unfilled.