Labour Leadership Contest

[Champ]

Oh, I understood your point. Was just making another. It's up to the general public. You either continue the charade, giving Labour a mandate to move as far to the right as they want, or you bin them. Enough is enough.

 

And all I can see is a picture of Tony Blair's grinning mug

[Scooby Dudek]

Apologies for missing your point. 

 

Electorally I have already binned them. I just hope they give me a reason to return. However I doubt they will. 

 

They are consumed with getting back into power at all costs. Principles and believes do not enter into their thinking. Politicians are meant to have opinions and try and persuade the public why their opinion is correct. Labour now openly admitting we need to do what the public tell us genuinely concerns me.

[Jairzinho]

And all I can see is a picture of Tony Blair's grinning mug

 

And Thatcher's.

[Champ]

And Thatcher's.

 

Indeed. So much in common

[dennis tooth]

And all I can see is a picture of Tony Blair's grinning mug

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/senior-labour-mp-allegedly-accused-by-colleagues-of-a-wave-of-child-sex-offences-10399541.html

 

Indeed

[Jairzinho]

Apologies for missing your point. 

 

Electorally I have already binned them. I just hope they give me a reason to return. However I doubt they will. 

 

They are consumed with getting back into power at all costs. Principles and believes do not enter into their thinking. Politicians are meant to have opinions and try and persuade the public why their opinion is correct. Labour now openly admitting we need to do what the public tell us genuinely concerns me.

 

Ha, don't be silly, mate. No need to apologise for anything.

 

If Corbyn gets the job (he won't), I'll vote Labour, and persuade other people to do so. If it's one of the other three, I'll vote Green, and persuade other people to do so.

 

That said, I have almost no faith at all in the "democracy" we are served up. Murdoch and his cunt influence, donations and lobbying from the rich, no ability to recall MPs, a voting systems that lets 24% of the electorate give power to one fucking party to do as they please. Nah, this isn't democracy. Not really.

 

Spot on about Labour wanting power at any cost. Even if they will be marginally less hateful than the Tories I don't want them in power with Liz cunting Kendall in charge because it'll kill any chance of actual change, and it'll justify where the political centre has been moved to. They should be challenging the narrative, not having people call this the "age of austerity". 

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

In terms of reason behind my vote I couldn't give a fucking shit about leadership qualities.

I tend to find leadership qualities a pretty desirable trait in a leader.

[Jairzinho]

I tend to find leadership qualities a pretty desirable trait in a leader.

 

If the principles aren't there I couldn't care less. Idi Amin had decent leadership qualities.

 

I wonder how many people thought Clement Attlee had leadership qualities.

[mattyq]

If the principles aren't there I couldn't care less. Idi Amin had decent leadership qualities.

 

I wonder how many people thought Clement Attlee had leadership qualities.

Different time, mate

1945 is the one time that the British public have ever voted for a socialist government and that was in unique circumstances, obviously.

Every other time a socialist Labour party is defeated heavily

I agree that the centre ground of British politics seems to be shifting to the right just like American politics so what should Labour do? Elect Corbyn, who I like and respect, and lose the next GE decisively or elect somebody like Burnham who has a chance, albeit slim.

One thing that is sure is that they need a leader as gifted as winning elections as Blair was. Granted he turned into a lunatic but people forget the good that he did in his first term,,,minimum wage, spending on schools & NHS, Good Friday agreement etc

[Jairzinho]

Different time, mate

1945 is the one time that the British public have ever voted for a socialist government and that was in unique circumstances, obviously.

Every other time a socialist Labour party is defeated heavily

I agree that the centre ground of British politics seems to be shifting to the right just like American politics so what should Labour do? Elect Corbyn, who I like and respect, and lose the next GE decisively or elect somebody like Burnham who has a chance, albeit slim.

One thing that is sure is that they need a leader as gifted as winning elections as Blair was. Granted he turned into a lunatic but people forget the good that he did in his first term,,,minimum wage, spending on schools & NHS, Good Friday agreement etc

 

I completely refute your assessment of the British public. Labour can do whatever they want, and frankly I don't think they've got a hope in hell of winning the next election whoever is in charge. Tory-lite won't work, it isn't the principles of socialism that have a limited shelf life, it's Blairism. The centre was successfully moved to the right, and now Murdoch has no need to back a Labour leader ever again. But they can choose whether they want to represent something, and build a movement to challenge the narrative created by Rupert Murdoch and co, or they can simply attempt to "win" by ditching ideological principles. Green voters won't be coming back with any of the three Tories in charge, neither will any SNP voters, and working class UKIP voters absolutely detest the party. These parties won't be getting less votes at the next election, without a Labour party that represents anyone bar the rich, they'll be getting more.

 

I honestly don't mind either way really. It would be nice to see Labour represent the working class, but if they don't want to then it represents an excellent opportunity to ditch them for good. 

[mattyq]

It's not my assessment it's just a fact. A socialist party has won one election ever in the UK. They've lost every other one most notably in 1983.

I agree that Labour seem to be properly screwed 

They need to retain the heartland in the North, the Metropolitan areas and Wales

They need to win back lost seats in Scotland & Wales

They need to win seats in middle England and the South

 

If they go Socialist they won't win a bean in Middle England and the South and that is where most of the seats are

I agree that Blairism is dead but equally so is Socialism in the UK and I agree that they need to build a movement that challenges the current political narrative but I haven't got a clue how they are going to do that.

 

The SNP have done it with nationalism and inspired leadership and the support of Murdoch but their policies are, in the main, classically social democrat

Maybe Labour need to head down this route, They deffo need to become less centralist and elitist;more local candidates and less Oxbridge Westminster types, Mobilise the youth vote with modern techniques and grassroot campaigns that get the under 30s out to vote which, they just don't do at the moment

[Jairzinho]

It's not my assessment it's just a fact. A socialist party has won one election ever in the UK. They've lost every other one most notably in 1983.

I agree that Labour seem to be properly screwed 

They need to retain the heartland in the North, the Metropolitan areas and Wales

They need to win back lost seats in Scotland & Wales

They need to win seats in middle England and the South

 

If they go Socialist they won't win a bean in Middle England and the South and that is where most of the seats are

I agree that Blairism is dead but equally so is Socialism in the UK and I agree that they need to build a movement that challenges the current political narrative but I haven't got a clue how they are going to do that.

 

The SNP have done it with nationalism and inspired leadership and the support of Murdoch but their policies are, in the main, classically social democrat

Maybe Labour need to head down this route, They deffo need to become less centralist and elitist;more local candidates and less Oxbridge Westminster types, Mobilise the youth vote with modern techniques and grassroot campaigns that get the under 30s out to vote which, they just don't do at the moment

 

It's not a fact at all really. Because there isn't a universally shared definition of "Socialism". Also, there is an enormous difference between what Labour currently offers and what Attlee offered. Plenty of room in between. Neil Kinnock being a shit politician isn't proof that we have a nation of sociopaths. We have a nation of people that are frighteningly ignorant, that when left to their own devices cite social democratic policies, and when ruthlessly bullied by Murdoch and his ilk, press the self harm button and vote Tory. In fact, that's not even fair as only 24% of the electorate voted Tory.

 

I think it's far too simplistic to say that SNP have "done it with nationalism". They also made quite clear that they're anti-austerity, unlike the Labour party. Mhairi Black's speech wasn't a fuck you to England, it was a fuck you to neo-liberalism. How can you say that the ideals of socialism are dead when we haven't been offered them. Not only that, but as soon as it was confirmed these despicable Tory cunts got in people started panicking about work conditions, pay, the NHS. Surely people shouldn't be arsed about this stuff? Surely people shouldn't want to nationalise energy and rail. They shouldn't want to go after the banks, and tax the rich more. People aren't in favour of blowing up the Middle East. Yet, Labour doesn't offer them anything. What about the 4m people that voted UKIP? Do you think they're all wealth off people that hate the ideals of socialism? Most of them are working class people. People abandoned by Labour and gleefully picked up by Farage's campaign of neanderthal rhetoric. Again, they weren't offered anything by Labour. 

 

No-one is expecting them to run a campaign on a promise to abolish capitalism, people don't want that. However, people do generally want the most vulnerable sections of society looked after. They want a NHS to be completely in public hands. They want other important sectors nationalised. They want no wars. They want a decent wage, and they want somewhere to live. Austerity is ideological, but Labour have done nothing to challenge this.

 

Under 30s either aren't engaged with politics, or are engaged and therefore have no intention of voting for a neo liberal Labour Party.

[DPW]

None of the candidates evoke any sort of inspiration. The only reason to vote for Corbyn is that he at least has some principles. And isn't a Tory lite.

 

Just because somebody is the best of a bad bunch doesn't make them leader material.

 

People need to be inspired to follow.

Repped for still having the best Avatar.

[Section_31]

The cut of the leader's gib is everything now, if Blair was still labour leader and William Hague Tory leader labour would have won the last election.

 

Everyone knows this is how it works but they find it embarrassing to admit so they come up with ever more ridiculous reasons.

 

The war in Iraq, fiscal competence, moves to the left. The majority of people probably think those are dance moves.

[mattyq]

I agree with much of what you say, J

I don't think Britain is a nation of sociopaths, quite the reverse. I think the UK is great and the vast majority of people are decent and well intentioned and tolerant. This is one of the reasons why the rise of nationalism and the UKip terrifies me as I regard them as inherently regressive and selfish beliefs. Black's maiden speech was great and she seems a very impressive person but she didn't mention the paradox at the centre of her belief system ie it's all about the people who live North of an imaginary line on the ground and fuck everybody else. 

Then there's Murdoch's continuing support for the SNP and their continuing support of the EU which is fast becoming the most regressive body in Europe with their shocking treatment of Ireland and now Greece all of which tells me that they are not, in actual fact, anti-austerity at all.

 

I think Socialism is very well defined and a quick google sums it up very well as:

 

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

Of course there are variations on a theme but that's your basic tenet right there. 

I support parts of it as in the NHS, rail nationalisation and energy nationalisation but not when you start talking about large parts of the economy like BA or the road haulage or car makers and yeah, I'm worried about taxes and inequality and the lack of decent jobs but I don't think Socialism can address them effectively and it sure as hell can't address environmental concerns and other 21st Century problems like the rise of Transglobal corporations, highly mobile Capital and a international elite that don't give a shit about any country...then there's the Middle East, terrorism etc

[Jairzinho]

I agree with much of what you say, J

I don't think Britain is a nation of sociopaths, quite the reverse. I think the UK is great and the vast majority of people are decent and well intentioned and tolerant. This is one of the reasons why the rise of nationalism and the UKip terrifies me as I regard them as inherently regressive and selfish beliefs. Black's maiden speech was great and she seems a very impressive person but she didn't mention the paradox at the centre of her belief system ie it's all about the people who live North of an imaginary line on the ground and fuck everybody else. 

Then there's Murdoch's continuing support for the SNP and their continuing support of the EU which is fast becoming the most regressive body in Europe with their shocking treatment of Ireland and now Greece all of which tells me that they are not, in actual fact, anti-austerity at all.

 

I think Socialism is very well defined and a quick google sums it up very well as:

 

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

Of course there are variations on a theme but that's your basic tenet right there. 

I support parts of it as in the NHS, rail nationalisation and energy nationalisation but not when you start talking about large parts of the economy like BA or the road haulage or car makers and yeah, I'm worried about taxes and inequality and the lack of decent jobs but I don't think Socialism can address them effectively and it sure as hell can't address environmental concerns and other 21st Century problems like the rise of Transglobal corporations, highly mobile Capital and a international elite that don't give a shit about any country...then there's the Middle East, terrorism etc

 

Was Stalin socialist? What about Sweden's current government. That's my point. Corbyn doesn't want the former, neither does Sanders in America, but they're deliberately merged to scare the fuck out of the population. There is nothing remotely radical about the sort of politics Corbyn is putting forward. This type of socialism is actually what most people seem to want. Where nobody is poor but there is ample room to become wealthy.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

It's not my assessment it's just a fact. A socialist party has won one election ever in the UK. They've lost every other one most notably in 1983.

I agree that Labour seem to be properly screwed 

They need to retain the heartland in the North, the Metropolitan areas and Wales

They need to win back lost seats in Scotland & Wales

They need to win seats in middle England and the South

 

If they go Socialist they won't win a bean in Middle England and the South and that is where most of the seats are

I agree that Blairism is dead but equally so is Socialism in the UK and I agree that they need to build a movement that challenges the current political narrative but I haven't got a clue how they are going to do that.

 

The SNP have done it with nationalism and inspired leadership and the support of Murdoch but their policies are, in the main, classically social democrat

Maybe Labour need to head down this route, They deffo need to become less centralist and elitist;more local candidates and less Oxbridge Westminster types, Mobilise the youth vote with modern techniques and grassroot campaigns that get the under 30s out to vote which, they just don't do at the moment

Don't believe the hype!

 

The majority of the UK population - including a significant proportion of Tory voters - support higher taxes on the rich, renationalising rail, nationalising the energy suppliers, a welfare system that protects people from destitution, free education and (above all) a National Health Service, universally free at the point of use.

 

Any Labour leader who promised this stuff would be hounded by the billionaire tax dodgers - Murdoch, Rothermere and Desmond - and smeared as an evil Socialist/Commy/Stalinist/Maoist/Trot.  And yet, these policies were supported by every UK Government from 1945 to 1979.

 

If you want to describe the adoption of hugely popular anti-austerity policies as "going Socialist" you may well be right that they won't win if they continue to play politics in the same disengaged Westminster bubble where it currently plays.  If, however, they spend the next few years connecting with people, discussing issues, listening to people and explaining a clear anti-austerity programme, then they have a chance.

 

If they choose to keep doing what has failed, they will continue to fail - and deservedly so.

 

PS

As for the SNP, my view coincides with the view expressed by Mhairi Black's maiden speech - that their success was not about Nationalism (and even less about Murdoch!) and more about being seen as the only credible anti-austerity party in Scotland.

[mattyq]

Don't believe the hype!

 

The majority of the UK population - including a significant proportion of Tory voters - support higher taxes on the rich, renationalising rail, nationalising the energy suppliers, a welfare system that protects people from destitution, free education and (above all) a National Health Service, universally free at the point of use.

 

Any Labour leader who promised this stuff would be hounded by the billionaire tax dodgers - Murdoch, Rothermere and Desmond - and smeared as an evil Socialist/Commy/Stalinist/Maoist/Trot.  And yet, these policies were supported by every UK Government from 1945 to 1979.

 

If you want to describe the adoption of hugely popular anti-austerity policies as "going Socialist" you may well be right that they won't win if they continue to play politics in the same disengaged Westminster bubble where it currently plays.  If, however, they spend the next few years connecting with people, discussing issues, listening to people and explaining a clear anti-austerity programme, then they have a chance.

 

If they choose to keep doing what has failed, they will continue to fail - and deservedly so.

 

PS

As for the SNP, my view coincides with the view expressed by Mhairi Black's maiden speech - that their success was not about Nationalism (and even less about Murdoch!) and more about being seen as the only credible anti-austerity party in Scotland.

Er, well, yeah. I know all of this. I've been mentioning all of this when people bang on about Scotland being more left wing than England. Views are broadly similar across the UK and, as you say, people generally support all of this.

And yet here we are with a Tory government 

 

It's interesting how you think Labour will get smeared by Murdoch and his evil ilk if they go left and I agree, they will, but the SNP's success was at, least partially,  nothing to do with Murdoch's support, no sirree Bob. How does that work then? Nothing to do with the 45 % of Scots who voted with the Nationalists either. Nope, nothing to do with Nationalism. Whatsoever

 

The SNP want to reduce taxes on business. When Nicola Sturgeon was asked to name a single redistributive policy that she'd enacted in Holyrood she couldn't name a single example. They might say they're anti austerity but then the Tories say they're the party of the working man. Good article in the New Statesman about all of this

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/04/if-you-think-snp-are-left-wing-force-think-again

 

How can Blair win 3 elections...nothing to do with Murdoch's support,,absolutely.

I have a simple rule - if Murdoch supports it then it's probably going to be a bag of shite

 

I think Section at least partially nailed it above. It's about leadership and hope and optimism. Labour haven't done any of that since Blair's early days. It's also about being electable. People need to think that you can form a successful government with policies that don't scare the electors. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the charisma to carry it off. He'd get crucified just like Michael Foot did

 

I agree with all the other stuff you said

[Stu Monty]

I agree with much of what you say, J

I don't think Britain is a nation of sociopaths, quite the reverse. I think the UK is great and the vast majority of people are decent and well intentioned and tolerant. This is one of the reasons why the rise of nationalism and the UKip terrifies me as I regard them as inherently regressive and selfish beliefs. Black's maiden speech was great and she seems a very impressive person but she didn't mention the paradox at the centre of her belief system ie it's all about the people who live North of an imaginary line on the ground and fuck everybody else.

Then there's Murdoch's continuing support for the SNP and their continuing support of the EU which is fast becoming the most regressive body in Europe with their shocking treatment of Ireland and now Greece all of which tells me that they are not, in actual fact, anti-austerity at all.

 

I think Socialism is very well defined and a quick google sums it up very well as:

 

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

Of course there are variations on a theme but that's your basic tenet right there.

I support parts of it as in the NHS, rail nationalisation and energy nationalisation but not when you start talking about large parts of the economy like BA or the road haulage or car makers and yeah, I'm worried about taxes and inequality and the lack of decent jobs but I don't think Socialism can address them effectively and it sure as hell can't address environmental concerns and other 21st Century problems like the rise of Transglobal corporations, highly mobile Capital and a international elite that don't give a shit about any country...then there's the Middle East, terrorism etc

Matty, you've just posted a definition then immediately ignored it.

 

Unless you don't agree that BA or car makers shouldn't be regulated then you've just deemed yourself a socialist.

 

You've also moved all UK governments through the years into being defined as socialist.

[Jairzinho]

Kendall, Burnham, and Cooper all abstaining from the latest Welfare Bill. Fucking cowards.

[Spy Bee]

Kendall, Burnham, and Cooper all abstaining from the latest Welfare Bill. Fucking cowards.

Thought Burnham had implored everyone to oppose it in an open letter?

[Jairzinho]

Thought Burnham had implored everyone to oppose it in an open letter?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/20/andy-burnham-not-vote-against-unsupportable-welfare-bill

[Spy Bee]

Cunts. Labour are in serious danger of making themselves redundant. I mean, I know that while the mainstream media is controlled so acutely by vested interests the electorate are still hugely influenced, but politics has moved so far to the right that a miltant left wing party will get traction at some stage... Or will they then be classed as extremist?

[Jairzinho]

Cunts. Labour are in serious danger of making themselves redundant. I mean, I know that while the mainstream media is controlled so acutely by vested interests the electorate are still hugely influenced, but politics has moved so far to the right that a miltant left wing party will get traction at some stage... Or will they then be classed as extremist?

 

Corbyn isn't even "militant left wing" though is he? I mean, he probably has views to the left of what he professes, but all he's actually campaigning is Social Democracy.

 

Labour probably won't win the next election but they have to decide whether they'd rather build a movement again based on the founding principles of the party or just try and win at all costs, chasing the Tories as far to the right as they desire to move.

 

I think it'll be interesting whatever happens. Corbyn in charge would be ace, it would make our "democracy" slightly more real. But if it's one of the other three I think it'll be the final straw for a lot of people, time to concentrate solely on politics away from the farce that is parliament.

 

The scope is there to fight Murdoch. Twitter, facebook, youtube, blogs, going door to door, festivals, discussion groups, protests, occupy movements, independent media, whatever. If Labour want to be the party of the majority then it's up to them to back themselves to take that old cunt on.

[Spy Bee]

Corbyn isn't even "militant left wing" though is he? I mean, he probably has views to the left of what he professes, but all he's actually campaigning is Social Democracy.

 

Labour probably won't win the next election but they have to decide whether they'd rather build a movement again based on the founding principles of the party or just try and win at all costs, chasing the Tories as far to the right as they desire to move.

 

I think it'll be interesting whatever happens. Corbyn in charge would be ace, it would make our "democracy" slightly more real. But if it's one of the other three I think it'll be the final straw for a lot of people, time to concentrate solely on politics away from the farce that is parliament.

The only possible 'soft' revolution I think.