25 years ago today

[Preston Red]

Never forgotten. Always loved. RIP 96

[Captain]

JFT96

 

And it's just around the corner too.

[Tj hooker]

96 Brothers & Sisters who never came home RIP YNWA JFT 96

[Faustus]

That stupid bitch Esther McVey has put her foot in it again today.

 

I can't paste for some reason, but pretty much as Andy Burnham was speaking, she tweeted 'Wirral Labour can't be trusted. Nicky Campbell from the BBC tweeted her back: 'Not watching the service?' No response back. Not even bothered to delete the tweet.

 

Can't even lay off while some Wirral Labour MPs are at the service and Burnham is giving a brilliant and moving speech. Horrible, horrible bitch.

[deiseach]

Andy Burnham gives us the HIP. Tories give us the SYP. Horrible cow.

[Mathewbet1]

Thoughts are with the families and everyone effected. 25 years it's been a long road to justice, and those who fought so hard should be proud. YNWA. JFT96.

[Elite]

They'll all be looking down and cheering the boys on.

[Hand Shandy]

Always in our hearts. Justice is coming.

[dandyman]

Brendan Rodgers really is a class act, just gets the club at every level, great words

[xerxes]

 By the standards of the day opening a gate outside to relieve crowd pressure was not unusual, the results were. Incompetence  and or negligence in doing so was always going to be hard to press.

 

Not unusual agreed but given that  Duckenfield could see the abnormal overcrowding in the central pen building up before his eyes and on the tv monitors and given that he and his officers were aware that the pen had not been closed off I would disagree that that this decision could not be described as incompetent or negligent. 

Would that it were that simple- by the standards of the day. I have no torch to carry for Duckenfield and the SYP, but Justice and “the truth” must mean that.

 

The individual pens were not turnstile controlled, so a decision on when the pens were to be closed off was a combination of visuals, and  judgement. Pens full to bursting were not uncommon at some grounds at big games ( Park Lane End , Paxton and Scoreboard End spring to mind). Duckenfields’ inexperience and SYP complacency certainly played a part. But the build up itself was not extraordinary. The role of Sheff Wed as the ground operator, and their staff, has never been satisfactorily answered. The Police were not gatemen, and the lack of organisation by SWFC was equally vital, probably more so. A  perceived crowd control problem outside, rapidly became a crowd safety problem inside, but years of associating fans (rightly) with crowd disorder rather than crowd safety meant that the response was lacking and wrong.

 

 Furthermore, to the less experienced, it may have been assumed that fans would not force their way onto an obviously already full and overcrowded terrace, but some did, others went to the side pens.  It was the norm, I had done it at other grounds , normally the people in front of you spilled over to the sides- this time there was no space. I know someone who has never been to a game since, traumatised by knowing they he had unwittingly crushed to death his own. That is one of the unspoken horrors of Hillsborough.

[Dunney Boy]

Rogers was magnificent. We really struck the jackpot there, he could go on to be Shanklyesque. I'm watching the coverage now and I must give props to Martinez also. He is a classy individual and, had events worked out differently, I believe he could have been a trusted custodian of LFC, albeit without reaching the heights of Brendan Rogers I doubt. JFT 96 YNWA

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Xerxes. Have a night off.

[deiseach]

Xerxes. Have a night off.

Good advice. Going to sleep on this one myself...

[Coro]

Xerxes. Have a night off.

 

 

Have I just read Xerxes saying we should forget the criminal incompetence of the police and that opening Gate C was the right thing to do?

 

Have I just read that in a thread remembering the 96?

[Hand Shandy]

I couldn't tell you.

 

I stopped reading his posts a long time ago.

[stringvest]

Have I just read Xerxes saying we should forget the criminal incompetence of the police and that opening Gate C was the right thing to do?

 

Have I just read that in a thread remembering the 96?

No, you didn't read that. You interpreted that to suit your own motives. It was a considered post. You might want to try to do that yourself Coro. No-one will ever forget that horrible day. Some of us have very good reason not to. The last thing we need to read is some little shit trying to stir up trouble where there is none. Go away.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

It's definity not the post for shit stirring, but xerxes seemed quite happy to absolve the police of all responsibility, and was more concerned about Sheffield Wednesday (fair enough) and the fans who "forced" their way into an already packed stand (quite a shocking analysis from a Liverpool fan, also ignoring the design of the tunnels at the stadium which made it near impossible to see the amount of people in each stand until you actually got to the end of the tunnel itself).

 

Also, for what is a commemoration thread, he didn't seem overly concerned to mention any sort of sentiment for the victims, but was instead more focused on the fact that at least we get to sit down at the match now.

 

Just think his posts missed the point, entirely.

[stringvest]

I don't think he did say that we should forget about the police. He said the focus should be on those who have lied, and with the powers that be that allowed this disaster to happen, and this I absolutely agree with. I think those looking for offence will find it, but I also believe there is no malevolence in Xerxes posts and he has posted before on numerous occasions with plenty of sentiment for the victims.

 

This is not the place for arguing, and I apologise for my part in it. Yesterday was, as it always is, a difficult day.

[AndMjaa]

A new "ESPN 30 for 30" documentary on Hillsborough aired on ESPN in America yesterday. Judging by twitter and a lot of reviews, it made a huge impression on people watching it.

 

Good to see that it worked as an eye-opener for a lot of people who didn´t know the full story.

 

It is extremely powerful, but very well put together.

 

If anyone wants to watch it, it can be found here:
http://www.matchdrama.com/match-day-espn-30-30-films-hillsborough-15414/

[the chimp]

Watched that ESPN documentary before. I knew what was coming with the 'first' part of the documentary (the first hour or so covers the disaster itself) and so have avoided it. I have watched the 'second' part which dealt with the cover up and collusion. It's very, very well put together in telling the real truth, and doesn't pull any punches in showing this collusion very clearly. It was of all things Phil Scraton choking up that really got to me here - then again I've shed many a tear today. Indeed, I think that the film will be very difficult viewing for a lot of people on here, particularly if you subject yourself to the first hour (from what I've.been told).

 

No arguing please anyone . . . not in this of all threads. Here, if anywhere we should all be together.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

The "with hope in our hearts" programme on LFCtv (Sky, 429) was a good watch too.

 

Looked at the victims personal lives, what they were doing with their lives before opportunities were taken from them, spoke with their relatives, who told us all about their personalities.

 

What struck me (but I knew it already) was the normality of the victims, just normal people, looking to get on in life. One lad was a groundsman at Sudley Hall (I think), just in his late teens, looking to get on in life. Another was due to start a carpentry apprenticeship the Monday after the match.

 

That bit made me angry, a bit. Just normal folks going to a match. Angry, from two points of views. Angry that the gutter press, authorities and the government have played a part in blackening the names of such normal people, who could have been me or you, or any football fan or person throughout the country. Yet, they were, and are still by some, painted as thugs and drunks, when they were just very normal people.

 

And anger at the people who still mock this. I try not to get bogged down in this. Idiots will be idiots. But it's hurtful and disgusting stuff. About normal people. Working class, average people whose deaths are being taunted by people who are exactly the same as them, in all but the football team they support. Young lads and girls who do what everybody else their age was doing, going the match, into their music, going out having a beer or two. I just can't understand the logic in mocking the deaths of such people. Really infuriates me.

 

As for xerxes, I just needed to get my thoughts off my chest. I'm not going to say anything more about it, or argue. Agreed, this time of year is a time for unity, as supporters.

[LFC64]

Would that it were that simple- by the standards of the day. I have no torch to carry for Duckenfield and the SYP, but Justice and “the truth” must mean that.

 

The individual pens were not turnstile controlled, so a decision on when the pens were to be closed off was a combination of visuals, and  judgement. Pens full to bursting were not uncommon at some grounds at big games ( Park Lane End , Paxton and Scoreboard End spring to mind). Duckenfields’ inexperience and SYP complacency certainly played a part. But the build up itself was not extraordinary. The role of Sheff Wed as the ground operator, and their staff, has never been satisfactorily answered. The Police were not gatemen, and the lack of organisation by SWFC was equally vital, probably more so. A  perceived crowd control problem outside, rapidly became a crowd safety problem inside, but years of associating fans (rightly) with crowd disorder rather than crowd safety meant that the response was lacking and wrong.

 

 Furthermore, to the less experienced, it may have been assumed that fans would not force their way onto an obviously already full and overcrowded terrace, but some did, others went to the side pens.  It was the norm, I had done it at other grounds , normally the people in front of you spilled over to the sides- this time there was no space. I know someone who has never been to a game since, traumatised by knowing they he had unwittingly crushed to death his own. That is one of the unspoken horrors of Hillsborough.

 It was the norm, I had done it at other grounds , normally the people in front of you spilled over to the sides- this time there was no space.

 

Wrong time and far too big a subject to debate over a work lunch hour but

Yes we all had to push our way in between shoulders and through what at first would look like an impenetrable barrier of backs if we wanted to get down onto a packed terrace. It was the norm for the Kop especially if the gate was 50,000 plus and other terraces. I wasn't at Hillsborough but I was a regular late 70's and eighties so I too have my own personal experiences of overcrowding. You couldn't tap someone on the shoulder and ask if they would mind if they stepped aside! 

The problem is as we all know  this is easily twisted by those with agendas into ' evidence' of irresponsible or reckless behaviour if we use words like 'forced' without the context.

 

The defence though that the build up in the pens was not unusual enough to alert the officers in the control box to over congestion is weak at the very least.  

 

I know of nobody who wants a 'witch-hunt' or wants anyone innocent to be criminalised and let's face it this is unlikely to happen. I'm more concerned that those who ought to be challenged and held accountable actually are.

[stringvest]

Agree with that. Those who used to go to the game in those days have all thought 'there but for the grace of god go I'.

[Boss]

A new "ESPN 30 for 30" documentary on Hillsborough aired on ESPN in America yesterday. Judging by twitter and a lot of reviews, it made a huge impression on people watching it.

 

Good to see that it worked as an eye-opener for a lot of people who didn´t know the full story.

 

It is extremely powerful, but very well put together.

 

If anyone wants to watch it, it can be found here:

http://www.matchdrama.com/match-day-espn-30-30-films-hillsborough-15414/

 

That 30 for 30 documentary was great, thanks for posting that.

[xerxes]

Have I just read Xerxes saying we should forget the criminal incompetence of the police and that opening Gate C was the right thing to do?

 

Have I just read that in a thread remembering the 96?

As someone who was there, who knows many who were there and bereaved, and who knows an Echo reporter who reported widely on the tragedy I have a view, no more or less importnat than anyone elses, but certainly somewhat better informed.

 

There is little point in pursuing Justice and the truth if you have already made up your mind.

 

There is no doubt that opening a gate was a legitimate response to a worsening crush outside the stadium.It had happened before - and worked.When you are faced with the impending option of people being crushed to death outside the stadium, and relief, you only have one choice. Measures had been taken before to seal full pens, that were not taken then. Was that down to the urgency of the situation? An inability to communicate quickly enough? a jugement that it had been okay before so would be okay then?Or a simple operational failure?

 

Crimnal incompetence involves willful failure to act knowing the likely result of such failure- a test you think would be met, which I do not. The Police certainly have a case to answer, but that is after, not before the event. Many people would have done things differently in hindsight.

 

The memory of the 96 demands the truth, not a version of it.