Kenny's future

[Iantn]

Work in progress is another shitty turn of phrase that irks.

 

Every team in the league is work in progress all striving to better themselves to get to whatever their ambitions are.

 

To a degree this is true but I feel "work in progress" is more akin to the early stages of a managerial career than anything else.

 

The likes of Man Utd, Arsenal and Everton (for example) are no longer a work in progress because of the length of time the manager has been in charge. They are still trying to "perfect" themselves but that is a lot down to staying still means falling backwards.

[Jairzinho]

The term "work in progress" is just an excuse for not being very good, isn't it?

[Iantn]

The term "work in progress" is just an excuse for not being very good, isn't it?

 

Nope.

[fin-bat]

Spending the 50m on a replacement striker seemed like a must at the time i agree but 3 things

1) Why Carroll? - i did not rate him at NUFC and still do not now if I am honest

2) Why overpay by so much?

3) Carroll hardly contributed to our improvement from Jan onwards apart from the MCFC at home game as he was injured for most of the time.

 

 

1) Carroll is the new Shearer. Or was at some point, at least. Best header of the ball, ever. With the right coaching he was supposed to become a real monster of a player.

2) How much Shearer would cost now, if he was 20 and you´d know what he would become ?

3) Was bought for five years.

[FrenchEyeGlass]

1) Carroll is the new Shearer. Or was at some point, at least. Best header of the ball, ever. With the right coaching he was supposed to become a real monster of a player.

2) How much Shearer would cost now, if he was 20 and you´d know what he would become ?

3) ---

 

You're joking right?

[Whelan]

I don't see too many stand out options out there, I suppose I qualify as an old head, but I am far from the opinion that Kenny = no criticism, but I suppose most people are not arguing that.

 

There was £55 million on the bench yesterday until the last 20 minutes, Downing, Caroll, Bellamy have all spent time on the bench, yet Adam and Henderson (who is playing quite well actually) are seemingly immune to being benched, and in the case of Adam this is becomming ridiculous. In the last minute yesterday Pepe launched a long ball up to Caroll to win, he never but the ball fell just outside the box to Colbeck who was able to control the ball, turn and play up the field because both Gerrard and Spearing where standing on the half way line, two yards away from the two centre halves!

 

So we are getting beat and yet we think that having two people in the box against 8 is somehow going to get us a goal?

 

It has happened too many times for this to be the sole responsibility of the players, you cannot play 442 with two sitting centre midfielders and expect to score goals.

 

Sadly Kenny has fucked up quite a lot this season, and therefore the usual collection of jerks with knees have their ammunition, and despite an arbitrary belief that a manager needs time, there is the tangible aspect of 3 defeats on the run, one of the lowest scoring rates in the league, the consistent domination of matches with poor conversion, and the money.

 

If you think Kenny was going to get away with criticism because of that then you are wrong. Would you expect Kenny to give Adam matches simply because he feels he needs time? I would expect Kenny to be ruthless and make decision based on what is going to make the team successful, and he has to be judged on the same criteria.

 

The difference in wanting Kenny gone and wanting Kenny to stay, lies (I think) in whether you focus purely upon the negative and ignore the (diminishing) positives, whether you continue to push a negative agenda because you want him out, or whether you think success is about being perfect. You don't fuck players off because they have a poor spell, or even a poor season and you should not fuck managers of because of that. Kenny deserves another year because the model in place from FSG is long term, not short term and that should also be the case for the manager.

 

Personally I am fed up watching the same story this season, and my personal belief is that a team can be unlucky for two or three games, but when it starts becoming the norm that is a problem of attitude (to casual), tactics (wrong players) and poor management (no responsibility), if we start on Tuesday with Gerrard and Adam in the centre then Kenny is asking for trouble. I would appreciate an acknowledgement that poor finishing is not accepted, and they are aware of the problems.

[The Dude Abides]

nevermind.

[Hooch]

Great post Whelan.

 

I think we need to accept we're going to have days like yesterday. But there will be plenty of good days too. There is an FA cup there to be won and I think we can win it.

 

4th is probably gone now, so I would love to see us turn that negative into a positive by giving the youth a chance. Shelvey, Suso, Sterling, Ecclestone. Theres no better opportunity for players to make that breakthrough than when your team is struggling a bit.

 

On the subject of the managers signings, I think it's fair to say they haven't been great, but Adam aside they are all decent footballers who are young. They can be part of our squad for years. This summer I hope we can make some really effective signings to make that next step. I have my own ideas there, firstly I'd take a good offer for Suarez and replace him. Thats for another thread though.

 

Try and keep our chins up everyone. The show must go on.

[Jairzinho]

Nope.

 

Why not?

 

You could use it forever.

[Iantn]

Why not?

 

You could use it forever.

 

As I've stated above, I don't believe you can. You build to achieve something in the mid-long term not just in the next 12 months.

 

A few clubs have had managers for longer than 4 seasons now and those managers are arguably the main reasons for where their clubs currently are. After just over 12 months in charge, the King isn't the main reason for where we are yet.

 

That is the difference between being a work in progress and being a side that needs perfecting/upgrading.

[Whelan]

That is the difference between being a work in progress and being a side that needs perfecting/upgrading.

 

I am more or less in agreement with you, but the one thing I would expect from appointing a manager with Kenny's experience is that he shouldn't be learning that much and his tactical awareness shouldn't be prone to being seen as a work in progress!

 

There is a lot wrong with how we are playing at the moment, which is not down to the players or changes to the playing staff. Having one person in the box, which does happen a lot, cannot be put down to being a work in progress but more of a fundamental problem that needs to be address now.

[Iantn]

I am more or less in agreement with you, but the one thing I would expect from appointing a manager with Kenny's experience is that he shouldn't be learning that much and his tactical awareness shouldn't be prone to being seen as a work in progress!

 

There is a lot wrong with how we are playing at the moment, which is not down to the players or changes to the playing staff. Having one person in the box, which does happen a lot, cannot be put down to being a work in progress but more of a fundamental problem that needs to be address now.

 

I agree but I think that is also down to the players at our disposal more so than a tactical mindset. Maxi when he starts gets into the box. Meireles used to do the same. Henderson isn't going to give us that late run right now. Adam has stopped doing it on a semi-regular basis since Lucas has gone out and bar the Newcastle goal, I can't remember Gerrard pushing himself to do it yet since he's been back.

[Randy Marsh]

I understand that the manager isn't going To come out and criticise his players but maybe some kind of public recognition of our glaring inabilities in matches may at least appease supporters that the management are watching the same game as we are. It does wind me up slightly to be told how well we played when infact we were absolute shite.

 

We've lost 3 on the bounce in the league and despite dominating Arsenal I don't believe we can have any complaints as if you don't score goals you don't deserve to win matches and you won't do.

 

As much as people rightly say we are a team in transition, you can only apply that so far given that our whole recruitment last summer was based around signing players with Premiership experience. There are no excuses for only winning 3 home matches 7 months in to the season. There is no excuse for only winning 1 league game in 2012 up to now. This is relegation form for Christ sake. I can't remember the last match I actually thought we played really well in. This isn't good enough, transition or not. Players who shouldn't be anywhere near the team yet are starting week in week out isn't good enough either, and I'm not going to lie, it's worrying me. I'm not writing KD off at all and he deserves more than anyone the chance and time to sort this out. But a Carling Cup cannot paper over the fact that we've been absolutely abject in the league this season. Massive summer ahead.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Randy Marsh

[Thomo123]

Such a thread has no business on this forum.

 

Why? This isnt fucking Nazi Germany, its a simple question as to how people feel regarding our managers future.

 

Some fucking superfans on here. RAWK?

[Whelan]

The tactics applied are a hinderance at the moment and Kenny cannot hide behind that. We are now still making the same mistakes that we did at the start of the season, but we are less stable defensively!

 

I am not sure the players are at fault for the way that we play, we could easily have gone with Suarez and Bellamy yesterday, with Downing and Kuyt on the wings, but we are constantly using the same players, who are consistently showing the same weaknesses.

 

Tuesday is huge, if Adam and Gerrard start in the middle of a 442 then I think we will get beat! I don't think we have won with those two in the middle have we?

[Randy Marsh]

The tactics applied are a hinderance at the moment and Kenny cannot hide behind that. We are now still making the same mistakes that we did at the start of the season, but we are less stable defensively!

 

I am not sure the players are at fault for the way that we play, we could easily have gone with Suarez and Bellamy yesterday, with Downing and Kuyt on the wings, but we are constantly using the same players, who are consistently showing the same weaknesses.

 

Tuesday is huge, if Adam and Gerrard start in the middle of a 442 then I think we will get beat! I don't think we have won with those two in the middle have we?

 

Don't think we have won a league game that Gerrard has started this year.

 

I think we will get turned over on Tuesday. The shite will be smelling blood big time. Not looking forward to it at all.

[Thomo123]

To a degree this is true but I feel "work in progress" is more akin to the early stages of a managerial career than anything else.

 

The likes of Man Utd, Arsenal and Everton (for example) are no longer a work in progress because of the length of time the manager has been in charge. They are still trying to "perfect" themselves but that is a lot down to staying still means falling backwards.

 

I do see your point, the problem is we seem to be regressing. We played some decent stuff around this time last year but bar a few standout performances we have been distincly average/turd this season. We have had a couple of transfer windows to get rid of the dross but we have spent a fortune replacing them with players who dont even offer us anything better. Players like Maxi, Shelvey or Sterling arent even getting a run out despite the form of some of our players going totally down the toilet.

 

Then in the interview with the offal Kenny comes out saying ' a bit of luck, not quality was always going to win the game'

 

 

 

'Kenny Dalglish believes a moment of bad fortune was the deciding factor as Liverpool went down to a 1-0 defeat against Sunderland at the Stadium of Light on Saturday.

 

Nicklas Bendtner scored the game's only goal on 56 minutes after Fraizer Campbell's initial shot had hit the post before striking the woodwork again off the back of Pepe Reina, allowing the Black Cats' striker to turn home.

 

Dalglish told his post-match press conference: "I don't think it was much of a game. It was always going to be a bit of good fortune, rather than a bit of brilliance, that won it.

 

"I think we matched all the attributes Sunderland have. They've been on a good run, but I don't think there was much in the game other than the bit of luck that decided it.

 

"It never happened for anyone. It wasn't much of a game. It was a bit of luck that decided the difference between a draw and a victory - and Sunderland got the good fortune."

 

The game was played in blustery conditions in the north east, but Dalglish insisted the weather had no influence on the outcome when asked by journalists if the wind had played a part in his side's defeat.

 

He said: "It was the same for both teams. The wind is always a problem - it's the worst conditions to play in for football, but everyone was playing it.

 

"It spoils the spectacle more than affecting one team or the other. I don't think either team would say the wind was paramount in the performances, but I think it does affect the quality of the game."

 

The result means Liverpool remain 10 points behind fourth-place Arsenal, who play Newcastle United at the Emirates on Monday night.

 

However, with 11 matches still to play for his side in the Barclays Premier League, Dalglish remained adamant no-one within the Reds camp would be giving up in the chase for Champions League football as they look to add to their Carling Cup success.

 

 

The boss said: "We'll say what we said after the very first game of the season - we'll play all the matches, count the points up and see where we finish up.

 

"If we were to get fourth spot it would be fantastic for the football club, but winning the Carling Cup was fantastic and getting into the sixth round of the FA Cup is more than where we've been for a little while.

 

"I don't think the performances we've had, especially at home, merit the number of points we've got. We just need to keep going, do what we do well, keep our mouths shut, not feel sorry for ourselves and try to get as many points on the board as we can.

 

"It's a great credit to the seven new lads who have come in to have put something (Carling Cup) on the board in their first season. There are not many places with that many changes that get success like that.

 

"Although we lost today, I thought we matched them and then when we went behind I thought it was a good reaction from everyone to try and rescue something from the game."

 

 

Why shouldnt we expect a bit of quality to win the game for us, its a team full of internationals ffs.

[BCM]

b

I understand that the manager isn't going To come out and criticise his players but maybe some kind of public recognition of our glaring inabilities in matches may at least appease supporters that the management are watching the same game as we are. It does wind me up slightly to be told how well we played when infact we were absolute shite.

 

We've lost 3 on the bounce in the league and despite dominating Arsenal I don't believe we can have any complaints as if you don't score goals you don't deserve to win matches and you won't do.

 

As much as people rightly say we are a team in transition, you can only apply that so far given that our whole recruitment last summer was based around signing players with Premiership experience. There are no excuses for only winning 3 home matches 7 months in to the season. There is no excuse for only winning 1 league game in 2012 up to now. This is relegation form for Christ sake. I can't remember the last match I actually thought we played really well in. This isn't good enough, transition or not. Players who shouldn't be anywhere near the team yet are starting week in week out isn't good enough either, and I'm not going to lie, it's worrying me. I'm not writing KD off at all and he deserves more than anyone the chance and time to sort this out. But a Carling Cup cannot paper over the fact that we've been absolutely abject in the league this season. Massive summer ahead.

 

 

Brilliant post.

[BCM]

Don't think we have won a league game that Gerrard has started this year.

 

I think we will get turned over on Tuesday. The shite will be smelling blood big time. Not looking forward to it at all.

 

If we perform like we did yesterday on tuesday night and get beat.

 

The Forum will melt down

[Thomo123]

I don't see too many stand out options out there, I suppose I qualify as an old head, but I am far from the opinion that Kenny = no criticism, but I suppose most people are not arguing that.

 

There was £55 million on the bench yesterday until the last 20 minutes, Downing, Caroll, Bellamy have all spent time on the bench, yet Adam and Henderson (who is playing quite well actually) are seemingly immune to being benched, and in the case of Adam this is becomming ridiculous. In the last minute yesterday Pepe launched a long ball up to Caroll to win, he never but the ball fell just outside the box to Colbeck who was able to control the ball, turn and play up the field because both Gerrard and Spearing where standing on the half way line, two yards away from the two centre halves!

 

So we are getting beat and yet we think that having two people in the box against 8 is somehow going to get us a goal?

 

It has happened too many times for this to be the sole responsibility of the players, you cannot play 442 with two sitting centre midfielders and expect to score goals.

 

Sadly Kenny has fucked up quite a lot this season, and therefore the usual collection of jerks with knees have their ammunition, and despite an arbitrary belief that a manager needs time, there is the tangible aspect of 3 defeats on the run, one of the lowest scoring rates in the league, the consistent domination of matches with poor conversion, and the money.

 

If you think Kenny was going to get away with criticism because of that then you are wrong. Would you expect Kenny to give Adam matches simply because he feels he needs time? I would expect Kenny to be ruthless and make decision based on what is going to make the team successful, and he has to be judged on the same criteria.

 

The difference in wanting Kenny gone and wanting Kenny to stay, lies (I think) in whether you focus purely upon the negative and ignore the (diminishing) positives, whether you continue to push a negative agenda because you want him out, or whether you think success is about being perfect. You don't fuck players off because they have a poor spell, or even a poor season and you should not fuck managers of because of that. Kenny deserves another year because the model in place from FSG is long term, not short term and that should also be the case for the manager.

 

Personally I am fed up watching the same story this season, and my personal belief is that a team can be unlucky for two or three games, but when it starts becoming the norm that is a problem of attitude (to casual), tactics (wrong players) and poor management (no responsibility), if we start on Tuesday with Gerrard and Adam in the centre then Kenny is asking for trouble. I would appreciate an acknowledgement that poor finishing is not accepted, and they are aware of the problems.

 

 

Bar a few games i just havent seen that at all, maybe we have had good possesion but on the whole its not like we have been creating chance after chance. Too much of that possesion is in our own half, as you say once we get towards the final third we simply dont have enough options, quality or intelligent movement, in fact we have fuck all movement at all.

[Iantn]

Why shouldnt we expect a bit of quality to win the game for us, its a team full of internationals ffs.

 

I don't think he is saying that at all. I think he is saying that it was a bit of luck that beat us rather than being second best to them. He's not saying that is or isn't good enough, just highlighting it.

 

I'd also state that I don't think most of our performances have been average. I'd say we've been the better side in round 20 odds games so far this season and we should/could have won a lot of them. The fact we haven't has been often down to our own fucks up in the final third rather than being second best. Very few yesterday type performances have happened this season.

[Thomo123]

I understand that the manager isn't going To come out and criticise his players but maybe some kind of public recognition of our glaring inabilities in matches may at least appease supporters that the management are watching the same game as we are. It does wind me up slightly to be told how well we played when infact we were absolute shite.

 

We've lost 3 on the bounce in the league and despite dominating Arsenal I don't believe we can have any complaints as if you don't score goals you don't deserve to win matches and you won't do.

 

As much as people rightly say we are a team in transition, you can only apply that so far given that our whole recruitment last summer was based around signing players with Premiership experience. There are no excuses for only winning 3 home matches 7 months in to the season. There is no excuse for only winning 1 league game in 2012 up to now. This is relegation form for Christ sake. I can't remember the last match I actually thought we played really well in. This isn't good enough, transition or not. Players who shouldn't be anywhere near the team yet are starting week in week out isn't good enough either, and I'm not going to lie, it's worrying me. I'm not writing KD off at all and he deserves more than anyone the chance and time to sort this out. But a Carling Cup cannot paper over the fact that we've been absolutely abject in the league this season. Massive summer ahead.

 

We seem to have been saying that for 20 years now....

[RobbieOR]

didn't stop us sacking hodgson after only 6 months. that's worse than chelsea

 

I wish people would stop bringing shit like this up. I'd expect it from a manc or an fucking Everton fan. But Hodgson is the biggest exception to the rule of giving a manager time than you can get.

[Biscao]

I wish people would stop bringing shit like this up. I'd expect it from a manc or an fucking Everton fan. But Hodgson is the biggest exception to the rule of giving a manager time than you can get.

 

Never underestimate how far people will go make snide points.

[PaulMcC]

Hodgson is a complete cunt who treated the fans and the club with contempt.

 

Can't compare him and Kenny.