Defensive mistakes this season

[liverpoolsno9]

I'm in for a right begging here, but I reckon Kenny has got it wrong tactically. As mentioned above, the midfield isn't giving us enough protection, everyone we have played, maybe the exception of Stoke, teams have had good spells and put us under pressure, therefore the defence under pressure, we are not winning the midfield battle consistently, we have spells as do our opponents, the balance in a midfield 2 isn't right, personally I'd go with 3 in the middle to give us a bit more protection, have stevie in his free role with bellamy & luis either side of Carroll.

[PaulMcC]

It's a fair point to make, but mistakes come when you're not feeling 100% confident. There are times when we've been opened up and been lucky on the finishing.

 

Like I said above, he is far from done, but sadly I am starting to see the beginning of the end.

 

I wasn't just talking about Carra there.

 

I should've add Coates and the 2 covering defenders v Stoke in there as well.

[piscinin]

I don't buy the aging process thing BTW.

 

I've not seen any mistakes that you could put down to slowing up or not having the legs. He's just making bad decisions. It looks similar to when benitez got johnson and asked Carragher to play more expansively, he had trouble adjusting to that and started making all kinds of bizzare decisions; sprinting across the box to head Skrtel in the jaw, vacating his zone to challenge for a ball someone else had covered, leaving a player unmarked, etc, etc.

 

He just has a small comfort zone IMO and when pushed out of it struggles.

 

I think he will age like Hyypia who said the only problem he had was recovering. Pace, stamina etc were fine during the game, he just couldn't recover quickly enough for the next one. Carragher will be like that. And as long as we don't ask him to do things he's no good at, he'll be fine.

[zigackly]

I don't buy the aging process thing BTW.

 

I've not seen any mistakes that you could put down to slowing up or not having the legs.

 

Really? I look at that tackle the other night he should have walked for, and I see someone who doesn't want to face pace any more. Time past he would have showed him the outside and then got the ball.

 

It hurts me a lot saying all this by the way. I love the bones of him, but I think his confidence is not what it was and hence the mistakes.

 

What you say above is also true.

[piscinin]

I'm in for a right begging here, but I reckon Kenny has got it wrong tactically. As mentioned above, the midfield isn't giving us enough protection, everyone we have played, maybe the exception of Stoke, teams have had good spells and put us under pressure, therefore the defence under pressure, we are not winning the midfield battle consistently, we have spells as do our opponents, the balance in a midfield 2 isn't right, personally I'd go with 3 in the middle to give us a bit more protection, have stevie in his free role with bellamy & luis either side of Carroll.

 

I kind of agree but look at it slightly differently. He hasn't got it wrong tactically, as such, he's just identified a tactical system that doesn't necessarily suit all the individuals we have. Now we are in the process of giving players an opportunity to show they can be a part of that system.

 

In some cases, like with Carragher, it's a big ask, Kenny knows that though, but Carragher deserves the chance to give it a go.

[piscinin]

Really? I look at that tackle the other night he should have walked for, and I see someone who doesn't want to face pace any more. Time past he would have showed him the outside and then got the ball.

 

It hurts me a lot saying all this by the way. I love the bones of him, but I think his confidence is not what it was and hence the mistakes.

 

What you say above is also true.

 

I don't remember that situation, but I see someone afraid to run not someone no longer able to run. Maybe the distinction isn't worth making but to me his head is wrecked not his body. He's making all kinds of weird decisions about positioning, closing down etc that come from fear, uncertainty and doubt.

 

Since we gave up the offside trap, he's been an inveterate backer-offer, I've not noticed it getting worse.

[zigackly]

I don't remember that situation, but I see someone afraid to run not someone no longer able to run. Maybe the distinction isn't worth making but to me his head is wrecked not his body. He's making all kinds of weird decisions about positioning, closing down etc that come from fear, uncertainty and doubt.

 

Thing is he has never been the quickest. I do think he's getting done for pace a lot more though, and although it may be as you say, the psychological factor plays off the physical one, if he is no longer feeling as spry.

 

I don't know if it is too early for all this either, because the same questions were asked last season and the one before, but his game improved a hell of a lot later in the season. He has always been a slow starter.

[piscinin]

Thing is he has never been the quickest. I do think he's getting done for pace a lot more though, and although it may be as you say, the psychological factor plays off the physical one, if he is no longer feeling as spry.

 

I don't know if it is too early for all this either, because the same questions were asked last season and the one before, but his game improved a hell of a lot later in the season. He has always been a slow starter.

 

I was hoping for the slow start hypothesis too but the last time we were this open was when johnson came in and we played that high 4231 which benitez ended up abandoning in favour of a deep 4411 because he couldn't get it to work. Carragher was better after that. And of course under hodgson we were compact all the time. I don't see a way out personally.

[Guest SpiderLucas]

Can any of you remember the last time a striker was offside against us?

[zigackly]

Can any of you remember the last time a striker was offside against us?

 

Probably last time we played the offside trap!

[Guest SpiderLucas]

Probably last time we played the offside trap!

 

That’s what I mean; Suarez was offside a few times against Norwich and even Stoke. That high line is vital, without it we’re just a goal waiting to happen.

[Scousa Tomo]

We should just start taking a big roll of cling film with us.

[piscinin]

Can any of you remember the last time a striker was offside against us?

 

We caught a couple of stoke players offside the other night.

 

I do miss playing that way though, that was part of the whole crushing machine mentality.

[Guest SpiderLucas]

We caught a couple of stoke players offside the other night.

 

I do miss playing that way though, that was part of the whole crushing machine mentality.

 

I can only remember Crouch being offside when there was a scramble in the box.

 

I hope Kenny will see sense and play Skrtel and Agger against WBA. Odamwinge is very fast and Carra can’t cope with pace, I’m glad Long is out though.

[ritchie]

I don't buy the aging process thing BTW.

 

I've not seen any mistakes that you could put down to slowing up or not having the legs. He's just making bad decisions. It looks similar to when benitez got johnson and asked Carragher to play more expansively, he had trouble adjusting to that and started making all kinds of bizzare decisions; sprinting across the box to head Skrtel in the jaw, vacating his zone to challenge for a ball someone else had covered, leaving a player unmarked, etc, etc.

 

He just has a small comfort zone IMO and when pushed out of it struggles.

 

I think he will age like Hyypia who said the only problem he had was recovering. Pace, stamina etc were fine during the game, he just couldn't recover quickly enough for the next one. Carragher will be like that. And as long as we don't ask him to do things he's no good at, he'll be fine.

 

But as others have said, he's being hung out to dry with the way we're playing, or at least trying to play. It doesn't suit Carragher.

 

Carra's more suited to the Houllier sort of set up, where we'd defend deep and hit teams on the break. I'd say Hodgson as well, but that doesn't really do Carragher justice given how hopeless his tactics were. Look at some of Carra's super human performances against Chelsea in the CL, for example, where we'd be defending for our lives. The onus now is on an expansive, attacking game and Carragher doesn't really fit into that.

 

He's not really comfortable in the air, on the ball and with his distribution and he's not comfortable defending a high line anymore considering how he keeps dropping the defensive line back in games. Coates, Agger and Skrtel, regardless of how good they are as players, are all comfortable at most of those things. But Carragher is really an out-and-out defender and the way Kenny is seemingly trying to get us to play makes the need for Carragher redundant in a lot of games.

 

Norwich at home what does he offer? Somewhere like Chelsea away he still offers a hell of a lot. That's fine, so why still play him every game?

[piscinin]

But as others have said, he's being hung out to dry with the way we're playing, or at least trying to play. It doesn't suit Carragher.

 

Carra's more suited to the Houllier sort of set up, where we'd defend deep and hit teams on the break. I'd say Hodgson as well, but that doesn't really do Carragher justice given how hopeless his tactics were. Look at some of Carra's super human performances against Chelsea in the CL, for example, where we'd be defending for our lives. The onus now is on an expansive, attacking game and Carragher doesn't really fit into that.

 

He's not really comfortable in the air, on the ball and with his distribution and he's not comfortable defending a high line anymore considering how he keeps dropping the defensive line back in games. Coates, Agger and Skrtel, regardless of how good they are as players, are all comfortable at most of those things. But Carragher is really an out-and-out defender and the way Kenny is seemingly trying to get us to play makes the need for Carragher redundant in a lot of games.

 

Norwich at home what does he offer? Somewhere like Chelsea away he still offers a hell of a lot. That's fine, so why still play him every game?

 

I pretty much agree with all that mate. I think he's been in because Kenny recognizes as a pure blood and guts defender, he's our best, so he wants to give him a chance to prove he can adapt to playing in this system. It's not working though, so at the first available opportunity someone needs to show that place is theirs.

 

BTW The more I think about it the less I think we'll ever see us defending in a way that suits Carragher again. The whole benitez european away setup is a thing of the past, I think. Kenny's rebuilding the red machine and that doesn't brook even the idea of being compact, sitting deep and hitting on the counter. Tough times ahead for carragher methinks.

[piscinin]

I can only remember Crouch being offside when there was a scramble in the box.

 

Our 2nd goal came from a Pepe free kick for Jones coming back from an offside position. That was Jones being lazy rather than a proper offside trap though.

 

Boy I miss those days, there was something great about having the bare faced cheek to play the world's two slowest CHs as high as we did! And to have it work too!

 

I hope Kenny will see sense and play Skrtel and Agger against WBA. Odamwinge is very fast and Carra can’t cope with pace, I’m glad Long is out though.

 

See sense is the wrong way of putting it IMO. Decides it's time for someone else to have a chance to prove the place should be theirs.

 

Agger + Coates for me. Agger is now our Ledley King; plays whenever he's fit. I watched Coates playing for Nacional and I think he's going to be ideal for the way Kenny wants to play. Throw him in the deep-end, let him get the mistakes out of his system and prove he's at the same level as Skrtel and Agger.

[VladimirIlyich]

I'm impressed by Coates temperament so far. He's made a couple of mistakes so far but continues to play the way he feels is right. He looks like a taller version of Agger and has a similar style too.

 

Is definitely a player with huge potential.

[piscinin]

I'm impressed by Coates temperament so far. He's made a couple of mistakes so far but continues to play the way he feels is right. He looks like a taller version of Agger and has a similar style too.

 

Is definitely a player with huge potential.

 

When I saw him for Nacional he actually looked a lot like Carragher too. He was always deepest and boy does he like a hoof. More than once, a ball would come flying towards him and without taking a touch, he'd swing a foot at it and it would be in the other half with a Nacional player chasing it.

 

Ha ha very lucky, I said. And then the same thing happened in the next game and they scored. And the next game. For a defender to be that aware of attacking options when under pressure to make a clearance was seriously impressive.

 

As you say mistakes don't bother him. He's pretty fearless and will maybe end up in places he shouldn't be but it's all part of the trade off, if you want to play the way we seem to be going then CHs are going to need to end up on the touchline high up the pitch like he was the other night. The covering defender just needs to be covering. Hence, I reckon he'd be better with Agger than Skrtel.

[zigackly]

I have expressed doubts about Skrtel and Agger as a centre back partnership, but no complaints today. I thought they did very well together.

[dirk grout]

The best defensive displays of the season have come in the last 1 and a half games. Unfortunately, carras time may be coming to an end. Skrtel and Agger were excellent today.

[Kevin D]

[YOUTUBE]9vou4qUu5YY[/YOUTUBE]

[usernameunknown]

The best defensive displays of the season have come in the last 1 and a half games. Unfortunately, carras time may be coming to an end. Skrtel and Agger were excellent today.

 

Yep, think we look so much better whenever Agger is on the pitch regardless of who else plays but Skrtel is definitely our second best centre half now and should partner him.

 

Was so refreshing to see better distribution from the back today and a higher line aswell.

[ritchie]

Agger's the key when he's fit, but I thought Skrtel was excellent tonight and has played well the last few games since the Tottenham horror show.

 

No defensive fuck ups for once. Good to keep a clean sheet.

[aRdja]

Yep, think we look so much better whenever Agger is on the pitch regardless of who else plays but Skrtel is definitely our second best centre half now and should partner him.

 

Was so refreshing to see better distribution from the back today and a higher line aswell.

 

I didn't think they were holding a noticeably higher line at all to be honest.