Peter Crouch

[jsjazz]

I think the reason people object to the term "stumble" is because all of a sudden it is the latest stick to beat Rafa over the head with by ignorant Sky and newsmedia pundits.

They persist in repeating Torres was "rotated" earlier in the season (even though he only missed 2 games when not injured, and has missed fewer games than Rooney or Ronaldo), but as we have been winning a few games recently, this accusation is beginning to look a bit silly so they need another Rafa-beating stick.

It's amazing the number of people on TV, radio etc referring to Rafa "stumbling" on this formation, and the way they say it implies somehow its accidental and despite Rafa rather than because of him.

Rafa has used this formation before with Liverpool, now with better/different players it is producing results.

He has used it before with Valencia with good results.

Other "top teams" also change formations. ManU this year are almost playing without a fixed forward and with 3 or 4 deep lying attackers running and interchanging position at pace. Previous teams have had two out and out wingers (Giggs, Kanchelskis team for example with Hughes as a focal point). Do the press say Ferguson stumbled upon his current formation?

Arsenal for years played with their main goal threat coming in from the left wing and never scored from high crosses. Now Adebeyor playes much more centrally and they get crosses on his head. Do the press say Wenger "stumbled" on this formation?

Good teams and managers use the right formation for their players and the opposition, and this will change from time to time.

People on here do not mean it like this, but the shit stirring media use the phrase "stumbled upon" to damn with faint praise.

[Brownie]

I think the reason people object to the term "stumble" is because all of a sudden it is the latest stick to beat Rafa over the head with by ignorant Sky and newsmedia pundits.

They persist in repeating Torres was "rotated" earlier in the season (even though he only missed 2 games when not injured, and has missed fewer games than Rooney or Ronaldo), but as we have been winning a few games recently, this accusation is beginning to look a bit silly so they need another Rafa-beating stick.

It's amazing the number of people on TV, radio etc referring to Rafa "stumbling" on this formation, and the way they say it implies somehow its accidental and despite Rafa rather than because of him.

Rafa has used this formation before with Liverpool, now with better/different players it is producing results.

He has used it before with Valencia with good results.

Other "top teams" also change formations. ManU this year are almost playing without a fixed forward and with 3 or 4 deep lying attackers running and interchanging position at pace. Previous teams have had two out and out wingers (Giggs, Kanchelskis team for example with Hughes as a focal point). Do the press say Ferguson stumbled upon his current formation?

Arsenal for years played with their main goal threat coming in from the left wing and never scored from high crosses. Now Adebeyor playes much more centrally and they get crosses on his head. Do the press say Wenger "stumbled" on this formation?

Good teams and managers use the right formation for their players and the opposition, and this will change from time to time.

People on here do not mean it like this, but the shit stirring media use the phrase "stumbled upon" to damn with faint praise.

 

Fuck the media. They just make it up as they go along.

 

To be fair though, Arsenal and Man Utd are pretty much playing the same way now that they were back in August, whilst ours is quite different. I suppose that's the way they'll look at it, but as I say fuck them.

[Unrighteous]

Rafa used the same style at Valencia with slightly different variations, but the evidence is undeniable that he didn't plan for this to be the shape at this point in the season. If that was the case, then we'd have seen a lot more of it over the years, rather than the odd game here and there which is the reality. There's been times when we've played with a similar formation, but the personnel selected has been wrong. It's only recently that Rafa has married the two together, and it's great to see because it suits the players at his disposal. If we'd started the season with it, then who knows where we'd be now?

 

Some people just refuse to hear anything other than eulogies towards Rafa.

 

Brownie, hasn't the reserves and u18 sides been using this formation quite often(I don't watch it enough to say always) before the first team started employing it?

[Stu Monty]

Winning the league is almost impossible next season, in my opinion (despite what Martin Samuel said the other day). I do think we can be credible challengers, though - and by that I mean in a position at this stage of the season similar to Arsenal's.

 

I made the money point you're making last summer and it still stands now: I reckon we'd need two new flanks of high impact players to be able to win the league next year (and that's without buying another striker) and that ain't going to happen, Arabs or no Arabs.

 

I think two very good players in wide positions will see us take another step up next season. For my money it would be a left-back and then a forward to supplement Dirk and Babel. If he could play on both sides that would be perfect.

 

If Torres gets injured, we are fucked though and so is the system, of that I am in no doubt.

[Paul]

I think two very good players in wide positions will see us take another step up next season. For my money it would be a left-back and then a forward to supplement Dirk and Babel. If he could play on both sides that would be perfect.

 

If Torres gets injured, we are fucked though and so is the system, of that I am in no doubt.

 

Two top class, high impact players in any of the four slots on the flanks next season would undoubtedly improve us, I agree. Sadly, you're quite right about Torres, too. What would be nice to see is how Babel would do up front in this system if El Nino was injured.

[Brownie]

Brownie, hasn't the reserves and u18 sides been using this formation quite often(I don't watch it enough to say always) before the first team started employing it?

 

When i've seen the reserves play, they tend to go 4-4-2, with Nemeth and Brouwer up front.

 

The U18's, i'm not so sure about because I haven't been to a game this year. I think they tend to have two up front though with either Ecclestone, Purie and Amoo.

 

Dave and/or Pete would be able to tell you whether that's right though.

[Unrighteous]

This "can we challenge United next season" question rears its head again. If we do it will be a massive over-achievement. People who are expecting, or demanding, it are showing a real lack of awareness of the current situation of the two clubs.

 

It will take lots and lots of money or a good deal of time before a challenge can be demanded. I think with one of the two we can do it but with neither it is asking for a lot.

 

Stu, I don't think its unreasonable to think that if we have the resources available from last summer(including sales figures of roughly £50m) used to strengthen the attack in areas and an attacking fullback that we could challenge.

 

That's not a ridiculous sum of money for a Premiership side. I wouldn't DEMAND the challenge but we should be able to use this formation and this season as a stepping stone.

 

We add 10 more goals from those outside Forward positions(in the strength from Kuyt playing better all season, and Babel growing into his potential a bit more, as well as another offensively gifted forward), and a bit of width from the fullback areas to help break those bottom feeder 'park the bus clubs'... and someone who has pace and skill so they can fill in for Torres when necessary and/or add offensive prowess in a pinch on the flank... and I think we could easily be pushing towards the title.

 

We are really not far this season and we had a truly horrible stretch in there. We also had some off-field distraction of a sizable nature...

 

It's not unrealistic, if we get decent funds, and Rafa makes smart purchases.

[WaltonRed]

I think we will see those signings or atleast one of them in the summer.

 

Modric, Mancini all been linked and can play both sides of the 3 up front off the kid.

[Stu Monty]

Two top class, high impact players in any of the four slots on the flanks next season would undoubtedly improve us, I agree. Sadly, you're quite right about Torres, too. What would be nice to see is how Babel would do up front in this system if El Nino was injured.

 

As things stand I think he'd be horrible and I think I'd probably use Kuyt if retaining the formation. The difficulty when playing with one up front, when that one is so good, is how do you get good cover and keep them happy? You'd have to get someone who can play up there well but could also get games in the wide positions (or alternatively can do a job up there and excels in the wide positions).

[Brownie]

I think two very good players in wide positions will see us take another step up next season. For my money it would be a left-back and then a forward to supplement Dirk and Babel. If he could play on both sides that would be perfect.

 

If Torres gets injured, we are fucked though and so is the system, of that I am in no doubt.

 

This summer will be really interesting. I have a feeling that Alonso may leave, although I hope not. If that's the case, we'll need a central midfielder, and also some wide players, be it full backs or forwards.

 

A pacey striker would be nice as well, depending on Babel's progression.

[Unrighteous]

I think, honestly... Kuyt could do a job in a pinch up front(or Nemeth based on his progression)

 

It relies on getting another top-class player who can play in his position though. If you've got say(I hate to use his fucking name because it's like a lodestone) a Quaresma player with pace and skill... it shouldn't be too hard for Kuyt to find a bit of room with the threats of Babel and (fuck) Quaresma on the flanks.

[Stu Monty]

This summer will be really interesting. I have a feeling that Alonso may leave, although I hope not. If that's the case, we'll need a central midfielder, and also some wide players, be it full backs or forwards.

 

A pacey striker would be nice as well, depending on Babel's progression.

 

If Alonso leaves then we need to replace him with a seriously good user of the ball. Macherano does the destroying and you need the other deeper player to be able to conduct things, not that Mascherano can't pass a ball but he's not going to make us tick.

[Brodie]

Where did anyone in this thread say he held back the magic formation for 4 years until the chelsea game then unleashed it on the world? it was all planned?

 

I think this got out of hand because of the use of the one word -stumbled - to me it has connotations of the bumbling Spanish waiter other fans seem to label Rafa with.

 

It seems to me thats Rafa cant win sometimes with certain elements of the media and also more worryingly with our support - "he's a lucky manager", "he stumbled upon the formation". All I've been asking for in this thread is a bit of common sense and a bit of credit for Rafa.

 

I suppose Mourinho was lucky to realise 4-3-3 was the way forward for Chelsea, when they'd started the season they won the league 4-4-2, or Demento was lucky to change United's formation to 4-3-3ish to accomodate Ronaldo from the 4-4-2 they've played for the best part of 20 years as well?

[silverlining]

This summer will be really interesting. I have a feeling that Alonso may leave, although I hope not. If that's the case, we'll need a central midfielder, and also some wide players, be it full backs or forwards.

 

A pacey striker would be nice as well, depending on Babel's progression.

 

Please see my "Guess The Player" thread

[Guest TK-421]

If Torres gets injured I'd like to see us revert to 4-4-2 with Crouch and Kuyt up front. I'm not convinced Babel has what it takes to take on the Torres role; he wouldn't make the same runs, wouldn't link up with Gerrard as well and would be nowhere near as accomplished in front of goal in my opinion.

[Unrighteous]

We can't keep Crouch, TK. He's not good enough or versatile enough to start matches.

[WaltonRed]

Crouch will leave as will JAR, theres 10m+

[Guest TK-421]

We can't keep Crouch, TK. He's not good enough or versatile enough to start matches.

 

I was thinking about the rest of this season when I wrote that.

[Stu Monty]

That should be well over £10m. If we can't get £7m of someone stupid like Newcastle for Riise then there's something wrong. They don't watch him week in-week out you know they just remember the thundering goals.

 

Another six or seven for Crouchie too I reckon.

[Paul]

As things stand I think he'd be horrible and I think I'd probably use Kuyt if retaining the formation. The difficulty when playing with one up front, when that one is so good, is how do you get good cover and keep them happy? You'd have to get someone who can play up there well but could also get games in the wide positions (or alternatively can do a job up there and excels in the wide positions).

 

I did mean in the context of those potential new additions. Clearly putting him in there right now with no-one able to fill the slot on the left would be a disaster.

[Unrighteous]

That should be well over £10m. If we can't get £7m of someone stupid like Newcastle for Riise then there's something wrong. They don't watch him week in-week out you know they just remember the thundering goals.

 

Another six or seven for Crouchie too I reckon.

 

Add in £8-12m for Scott Carson, £6m or so for Pennant and £2-3m for Voronin.

[WaltonRed]

Add in £8-12m for Scott Carson, £6m or so for Pennant and £2-3m for Voronin.

 

We will be lucky to get 1.5 for the wolfman, and he was free so thats fair enough.

 

I think we will get about 8 for Carson, no more and Pennant we would be lucky to get 4.5m I reckon!

 

It doesnt matter though, we dont need a thread full of guess work and such!

[Guest TK-421]

Go on then I'll have a go:-

 

Pennant 3m

Crouch 6m

Riise 4m

Carson 6m

Voronin 2.5m

[Stu Monty]

We will be lucky to get 1.5 for the wolfman, and he was free so thats fair enough.

 

I think we will get about 8 for Carson, no more and Pennant we would be lucky to get 4.5m I reckon!

 

It doesnt matter though, we dont need a thread full of guess work and such!

 

Definitely.

 

 

Oh, you said we don't need one. Hmm, not sure about that.

 

Bowling, Peter.

[Dirk]

I'd like to issue an apology to anybody that I've offended by calling them a whopper. Specifically Paul. I need to chill a little and learn to adjust my debating style.